Voice_of_Reason

The House that Bruce Built

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...and all the PR blunders.

I wouldn't call them PR blunders. I think Gruden knows how to work a room and right know his rhetoric has kept most from looking at him and his culpability. Someone I worked with used to say...I don't need to hear about the labor just show me the baby. And right now Gruden has told us all about the labor with Griffin, the players in general and the defense in general.

 

But you can't hang a previous coach's mistake on a new coach. You have to give him the opportunity to evaluate, and find out if you have a diamond or a turd. Shrug.

Then you don't hire the guy if you/he think the potential franchise QB is a mistake. You trade Griffin in the offseason and recoup something while he still has value and start fresh with your guys. But, imho ~20 quarters is a joke. To me it reeks of someone that never wanted the guy from the outset (which I'm sure we disagree about and will never know the answer to)

 

...that Gruden had the job in December, and that everybody just assumed that it was Mike and Kyle and a recovering knee that caused Griffin to under-perform last year.

What gets me that this whole mess the past couple of years has been all about the QB all about Griffin when in fact this team has been lousy the entire time during Shanahan's regime other then the 7-game heater. The narrative tho is that Shanahan was fired because of Griffin when in fact he was fired for personnel decisions, historically bad special teams, league worst defense, and an unacceptable W/L record then towards the end he began blame shifting and the focal point became the benching of Griffin as if Griffin was the source of the problem then proceeded to lose the games without Griffin. People forget that last year in Griffin's underperforming year the offense was still the strongest aspect of the team.

 

I really hope you're wrong. We'll see. I might be wrong. But I really hope that they can figure out how to make this work.

Oh, I want to be dead wrong about this. But based on Gruden's own words/tone towards Griffin let alone his benching do you think it looks like Gruden wants to coach Griffin?

I can't think of any straws to grasp onto that would suggest that Gruden would want him back.

And I'm open to suggestions.*shrugs*

 

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we had a better winning % with vinny cerrato than bruce allen.. let that soak in.

 

seems obvious and not at all confusing

 

Vinny Cerrato was here for ten years, maybe more.  Bruce Allen has been here for five, has been the man for only one.

 

Cerrato was around for almost one year of Turner, one year of Schottenheimer and four years of Gibbs and nothing unusual happening, six years where something close to competence wasn't that hard to achieve.  Allen has been around for four years of Shanny and one of Gruden, and had to deal with the the salary cap bull****

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I wouldn't call them PR blunders. I think Gruden knows how to work a room and right know his rhetoric has kept most from looking at him and his culpability. Someone I worked with used to say...I don't need to hear about the labor just show me the baby. And right now Gruden has told us all about the labor with Griffin, the players in general and the defense in general.

You could be right. It could be that he's shifting blame. I think that the undressing of Griffin was extremely calculated. I think that this last week's pressers were more "blunder-ish." The stupid comment about "we coach until Saturday, and then they have to play" and that kind of thing.

I also think he's trying to protect Haslett a little bit. Though I'm pretty sure he knows by now that he's going to have to find a new DC.

Then you don't hire the guy if you/he think the potential franchise QB is a mistake. You trade Griffin in the offseason and recoup something while he still has value and start fresh with your guys. But, imho ~20 quarters is a joke. To me it reeks of someone that never wanted the guy from the outset (which I'm sure we disagree about and will never know the answer to)

Here's what I think, and this is just speculation: I think when Gruden was offered the job (again, I think this happened some time in December or early January), they asked him if he thought that he could get Griffin to perform like he did in 2012. And I'm sure Jay said, "Sure. Kid's got talent. You're telling me that he's healthy, and it looked like he could throw last year, so sure."

Then when they started working together, a whole different side came out, and Jay realized the enormity of the task. And it probably hit him like a ton of bricks.

The biggest question I have is why in God's name didn't Griffin get MUCH more playing time in pre-season? Was it to protect him? Was it to get more time for Kirk? Or was it really just the plan? I have no idea. But the evidence points to the fact that Jay was at least trying to prepare for an alternative in case Griffin bombed out early.

What gets me that this whole mess the past couple of years has been all about the QB all about Griffin when in fact this team has been lousy the entire time during Shanahan's regime other then the 7-game heater. The narrative tho is that Shanahan was fired because of Griffin when in fact he was fired for personnel decisions, historically bad special teams, league worst defense, and an unacceptable W/L record then towards the end he began blame shifting and the focal point became the benching of Griffin as if Griffin was the source of the problem then proceeded to lose the games without Griffin. People forget that last year in Griffin's underperforming year the offense was still the strongest aspect of the team.

I think Mike and Kyle Shanahan knew in 2013 what has become apparent in 2014 in terms of Griffin. I have no idea why Allen and Snyder decided to fire Mike Shanahan, what their underlying motivation was. Nobody will ever know. But my gut feeling is that it was as much because he completely mis-handed the QB situation from about the 3rd drive of the Seattle playoff game through the end of the 2013 season. Mis-handled the players, the media, the recovery, the relationships, everything.

And throw in historically bad ST, and a defense that was unimaginably bad, and there's your case.

Oh, I want to be dead wrong about this. But based on Gruden's own words/tone towards Griffin let alone his benching do you think it looks like Gruden wants to coach Griffin?

I can't think of any straws to grasp onto that would suggest that Gruden would want him back.

And I'm open to suggestions.*shrugs*

We'll see. Something in my head tells me that Griffin is going to be back next year. And there will be an open competition. I think that part of it is that they'll want to give it one more shot to see if they can make good on the trade, and the other is that they eat 3+ million dollars of cap space if they trade him.

The question is, can he go into the off-season as somebody competing for a job, or is he going to turn into a distraction. There's nothing to indicate he's going to be anything but a professional.

I'm still holding out hope. Though if he loses an open competition to Colt McCoy, who would probably be the least physically gifted QB in the NFL, or at least the bottom 1/4, that will say a lot about Griffin and his development.

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Agreed.  It's the continued notion/delusion that this team is a few players away from being a true contender that lead to the offseason decsions they love to make regarding keeping, letting go, signing FAs, drafting, etc.  Just a terribly run organization. 

 

Accept that the team stinks and don't be afraid to say "rebuild". 

 

The culture needs to change,...plain and simple.  I believe it won't happen with Allen at the helm and I fear Gruden, due to stepping into such a horrible situation, will fail as well. 

 

I WANT A REAL GM!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

the OL they were most likely wanted to draft was available with a later pick, and they wanted to sit him for a year.  The OL they would have most likely drafted if they'd stayed put ended up being beaten out by a seventh rounder. 

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I wouldn't call them PR blunders. I think Gruden knows how to work a room and right know his rhetoric has kept most from looking at him and his culpability. Someone I worked with used to say...I don't need to hear about the labor just show me the baby. And right now Gruden has told us all about the labor with Griffin, the players in general and the defense in general.

Then you don't hire the guy if you/he think the potential franchise QB is a mistake. You trade Griffin in the offseason and recoup something while he still has value and start fresh with your guys. But, imho ~20 quarters is a joke. To me it reeks of someone that never wanted the guy from the outset (which I'm sure we disagree about and will never know the answer to)

What gets me that this whole mess the past couple of years has been all about the QB all about Griffin when in fact this team has been lousy the entire time during Shanahan's regime other then the 7-game heater. The narrative tho is that Shanahan was fired because of Griffin when in fact he was fired for personnel decisions, historically bad special teams, league worst defense, and an unacceptable W/L record then towards the end he began blame shifting and the focal point became the benching of Griffin as if Griffin was the source of the problem then proceeded to lose the games without Griffin. People forget that last year in Griffin's underperforming year the offense was still the strongest aspect of the team.

Oh, I want to be dead wrong about this. But based on Gruden's own words/tone towards Griffin let alone his benching do you think it looks like Gruden wants to coach Griffin?

I can't think of any straws to grasp onto that would suggest that Gruden would want him back.

And I'm open to suggestions.*shrugs*

There aren't better options in FA than working with the QBs on the roster. If Bradford becomes available you could go after him, but unless you build a line he would be hurt by week 2... I would rather build a line for Robert in year 4 of his rookie deal, but that is just me. Both the skins and Robert need that fourth year, why not try it given what was invested?

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You could be right. It could be that he's shifting blame. I think that the undressing of Griffin was extremely calculated. I think that this last week's pressers were more "blunder-ish." The stupid comment about "we coach until Saturday, and then they have to play" and that kind of thing.

Its weird some of the things people get upset over in his press conferences. That bit about coaches job being done on Saturday didn't bother me at all, and sure I agree that was a blunder. But ultimately harmless.

Since we're on the topic of Gruden's undressing of Griffin; that was the first sign that Jay didn't want Griffin. Its one thing to take a player to task in person. But another thing to do it publicly the way Jay did (btw-every coach i've heard on the topic said Jay took it too far). Jay had a chance to get his QBs back publicly, regardless of what was going on behind closed doors. And if you recall, Griffin was asked a question about why he had success in 2012 and Griffin responded by saying it takes a team to play well. That was used to say he threw his teammates under the bus.

 

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2014-11-16/robert-griffin-iii-rg3-teammates-buccaneers-loss-quote-rodgers-manning-brady

 

During the postgame press conference, Robert Griffin III was asked about the difference between 2012, a rare playoff appearance for the team, and now, the quarterback had this to say, via the Washington Post:

“We were playing good team ball. It takes 11 men. It doesn’t take one guy, and that’s proven. If you want to look at the good teams in this league and the great quarterbacks, the Peytons and the Aaron Rodgers, those guys don’t play well if their guys don’t play well. They don’t. We need everybody. I need every one of those guys in that locker room, and I know they’re looking at me saying the same thing.”

 

Gruden could have said something along the lines of:

~Robert needs to learn to be more careful with what he says during these press conferences. And I've got to help him learn just as I am learning that things sometimes get taken out of context and that's what happened here. Robert was trying to answer a question, I believe the question was in regards to his success in 2012? Yeah, and Robert was right he said it takes a team, and it does. And Robert should have stopped there. He'll learn and I'll help him, but Robert did not intend to throw his teammates under the bus as you guys have said.

Still critical but not making it seem personal and doing a public critique of the worst game of his the QBs career. But by publicly admonishing Griffin, Gruden not only confirms the narrative that Griffin threw his teammates under the bus he created another narrative that Griffin is on the whole a fundamentally flawed QB. (despite Gruden saying the flaws were only on a few instances.) The HC came out and intentional attacks the QB as if the QB intentional threw his teammates under the bus and when that happened I knew it was over.

Nothing else matters after that. The media story becomes Griffin threw his teammates under the bus and the HC becomes the hero of the locker room took him to task for it.

 

Edited by darrelgreenie
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...Then when they started working together, a whole different side came out, and Jay realized the enormity of the task. And it probably hit him like a ton of bricks.

The biggest question I have is why in God's name didn't Griffin get MUCH more playing time in pre-season?

Going along with your theory above IF a HC (per my theory) was made to understand that getting Griffin to play is the only option not Kirk or Colt then that HC finds away to make it work. And as per my theory having watched the tape he had to have a better understanding of where the QB was in terms of development. So despite underestimating the enormity of the task coach realizes that a. its my own fault for underestimating how much work it would take and b. I am going to find a way to make this work because I have to, I gave my word.

If I have to play him heavy preseason reps then I will to make sure he understand ours concepts with live (semi-live) bullets flashing.

 

Edited by darrelgreenie

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I have no idea why Allen and Snyder decided to fire Mike Shanahan, what their underlying motivation was. Nobody will ever know. But my gut feeling is that it was as much because he completely mis-handed the QB situation from about the 3rd drive of the Seattle playoff game through the end of the 2013 season. Mis-handled the players, the media, the recovery, the relationships, everything.

And throw in historically bad ST, and a defense that was unimaginably bad, and there's your case.

But, the currently accepted narrative is that Griffin got the Shanahan's fired or that Snyder chose the Griffin over the Shanahan's.

Right now the narrative that's being currently molded is that Griffin is basically an uncoachable, unlikeable, egomaniac with poor work ethic, poor fundamentals that cares more about his brand then football. All this based on 2 bad games, 1 good game and 1 decent game and a whole bunch of off the record reports for sources inside Ashburn and the public blood letting from his HC.

The irony is that if you look at Griffin's history none of current negatives were said about him. In fact the opposite was said about him.

 

We'll see. Something in my head tells me that Griffin is going to be back next year. And there will be an open competition. I think that part of it is that they'll want to give it one more shot to see if they can make good on the trade, and the other is that they eat 3+ million dollars of cap space if they trade him.

The question is, can he go into the off-season as somebody competing for a job, or is he going to turn into a distraction. There's nothing to indicate he's going to be anything but a professional.

I'm still holding out hope. Though if he loses an open competition to Colt McCoy, who would probably be the least physically gifted QB in the NFL, or at least the bottom 1/4, that will say a lot about Griffin and his development.

IF Griffin is back next year it will be a worse sham then this year. There is nothing more futile and destined to fail then forcing a player on a coach who doesn't want them.

 

Nothing about Griffin suggests that he would be a distraction, but if he's back next year I'm sure those reports will come out as well.

And the narrative that has been shaped by Gruden is masterful. Jay was ostensibly brought here to make Griffin better yet Griffin is worse. But despite that fact Jay has shaped the narrative that the blame rests completely and totally on Griffin. The best part is the narrative has become that when Griffin performs better it will be due to Gruden's tough love Gruden's tough love that saved Griffin's career.

 

You have no idea how bad I want to be wrong.

I hate shuffling deck chairs....History_Speeches_6001_Titanic_Survivor_E

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Going along with your theory above IF a HC (per my theory) was made to understand that getting Griffin to play is the only option not Kirk or Colt then that HC finds away to make it work. And as per my theory having watched the tape he had to have a better understanding of where the QB was in terms of development. So despite underestimating the enormity of the task coach realizes that a. its my own fault for underestimating how much work it would take and b. I am going to find a way to make this work because I have to, I gave my word.

And my point is that 95% of coaching candidates would not accept the job if that criteria was presented to them.  And I don't know that you want the remaining 5%.

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If Bruce Allen is moved to just President or is outright **** canned. DO you feel like the next GM will keep Gruden?

If Allen is president, then the GM works for him. I imagine the HC position woukd be Allen's decision to make, with input from the GM

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If Bruce Allen is moved to just President or is outright **** canned. DO you feel like the next GM will keep Gruden?

I think he looks at the situation and says, "my God, how can I evaluate somebody operating in this garbage disposal. Let me take him out of it here for a sec so I can see if he actually is clean or if the dirt on him really is his own".

Anyone who comes here is gonna lose it. Anyone. Player or coach. It's almost impossible to judge them because it's almost impossible to rise above the issues presented by this organization in the first place. Fix that first. Period. The truth will then come out about everyone else.

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No competent GM in his right mind would take an office at Ashburn so long as Allen is still in the building in any position, regardless of the title.

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No competent GM in his right mind would take an office at Ashburn so long as Allen is still in the building in any position, regardless of the title.

Why do you feel that way? Do you feel like Allen would undermine a new GM?

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And my point is that 95% of coaching candidates would not accept the job if that criteria was presented to them.  And I don't know that you want the remaining 5%.

Well of course you think that because you have a low opinion of Griffin. But there are only 32 HC jobs in the world. Every year there are only about a handful of vacancies. There will be smart and capable coaches that understand how to develop QBs that wouldn't even need the concept of developing Griffin spelled out to them as I have explained because they would be smart enough to recognize it. I am certain that Jim Caldwell (if he didn't take the Lions job), Bevell, Tom Clements, Pete Carmichael etc would have accepted the job on those terms or understood those expectations implicitly. And we still don't know/and will never know that Jay didn't agree to those expectations to get the job and then thought screw it I changed my mind; and there isn't a GM in house to stop me.

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Why do you feel that way? Do you feel like Allen would undermine a new GM?

Is Allen the new Cerrato, in the sense Dan will keep him around like a child holds on to that one blanket? Will he always just be around?

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Allen is an embarrassment. He track record is atrocious and has no business being in control of the roster. We're screwed until he's gone unfortunately. 

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I posted the following on December 31 last year:

 

Promoting a contracts guy / cap guru to chief architect just doesn't give me much hope, nor does the party line that they are going to listen to Brown & Campbell. Again, time will tell...I'd love for you believers to be able to ram this posts down my throat in a few years but my guess is we will all be distracted by the noise of Redskin One getting fired up for another sell tour. 

 

Of course Brown is gone so I guess that was insincere. Then they kept Hazlett around insisting he's really good but Shanny kept changing the plays. This franchise is an absolute jerk.

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I posted the following on December 31 last year:

 

Promoting a contracts guy / cap guru to chief architect just doesn't give me much hope, nor does the party line that they are going to listen to Brown & Campbell. Again, time will tell...I'd love for you believers to be able to ram this posts down my throat in a few years but my guess is we will all be distracted by the noise of Redskin One getting fired up for another sell tour. 

 

Of course Brown is gone so I guess that was insincere. Then they kept Hazlett around insisting he's really good but Shanny kept changing the plays. This franchise is an absolute jerk.

 

Fletcher pretty much explained the Shanny/Haslett interference basically saying he had to because Haslett was a clown show on the sidelines gamplanning and coaching week after week.

 

**Not disagreeing with your post or anything, more or less agreeing and yes this franchise is a joke.

Edited by KuNiT21

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Is Allen the new Cerrato, in the sense Dan will keep him around like a child holds on to that one blanket? Will he always just be around?

I think Allen will be around even if a new GM is installed.

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I'm also reminded of the Mike UnWise article where he quoted a league executive who stated Allen was born with his foot on 3rd base and never took it off. I'm sure he will sprinkle some pixie dust shortly after the season and the masses will fall into line.

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My pleasure, BTW I misspelled your handle intentionaly. It's just the way I roll. ;)

 

Haha well your spelling is correct with regards to the ice cream sandwich.  I spelled it incorrectly when I registered :)

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Haha well your spelling is correct with regards to the ice cream sandwich.  I spelled it incorrectly when I registered :)

 

Funny thats exactly what I did with my handle. It should be Tyrone Biggums, but grammar is definitely not my strong suit.

 

Anyways I hope you and yours along with all my fellow Redskins patrons have a great holiday.

 

Cheers

Edited by Tyron Biggums
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