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The Subordination Excuse


Riggo-toni

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Javin Joseph and the emergence of Aqib Talib are a couple of bright spots on Allen's tenure in Tampa Bay. Mega-bust Gaines Adams and disappointments Michael Clayton and Cadillac Williams are blots on his resume that should make anyone nervous when he says he will have final say on personnel. Allen's apologists will claim he is not to blame for such debacles, since post-SB victory Gruden held the keys to the kingdom (and Gruden's fingerprints were all over the Williams selection).

Scott Campbell and Morocco Brown were holdovers from the post-enemal fluid known as the Cerrato era. Despite lousy drafts and bloated free agent contracts, they were given a pass and stayed on for Shanahan because they managed to convince him that their opinions were always ignored or overturned by Vinny. Now they are being effectively promoted despite Shanahan's drafts not being quite as stellar here as they were in Denver as their supporters insist they had offered better alternatives, but continued to be overruled by Shanahan.

Jim Haslett has a long history of disappointing to dysfunctional defenses. When he was announced as defensive coordinator, I knew the Shammy experiment would fail, because he had clearly learned nothing from his firing in Denver, and would continue to choose sycophancy over competency when it came to staff. After 4 years of crumbling defenses including a final year of putrid embarassments, Haslett keeps his job while the RB coach gets canned, thanks to his UFL connection to Gruden. Now it's being disclosed he wasn't responsible for our D's embarrassing performance, because Shanahan would overrule some of his playcalling. I suppose we'll next learn that Shanny was using mind control tricks that made Haslett suck all those other years when ol' Mikey wasn't his boss?

I have no doubts that Shanahan was a micromanaging egotistical control freak. Maybe Morocco Brown is more than just a great interviewee. Maybe Allen can be more than just a contracts and cap guy. Maybe Haslett and Morris cou...nah,forget that last one.

How pathetically disillusioned have we become in this once great Redskins nation that we rush to the defense of members of front office failures by rationalizing that their voices simply were ignored. Beathard already had 3 rings when he was brought here. Noone said Gibbs shouldn't be held accountable for Fouts' natural shortcomings - he was breaking passing records right and left.

Despite incredible successes together, Beathard and Gibbs fought tooth and nail on several occassions. When Beathard started to see the power over personnel shifting over to Gibbs, he turned down a huge pay raise and quit rather than risk his reputation.

And while people may have accused JKC of being petty or mean, noone accused him of being meddlesome.

Now we have a front office filled with people who have apparently kept their jobs by being subordinate and an incompetent defensive staff who have kept their jobs thanks to personal connections.

We have an owner who has consistently alternated from handing over complete control to a prestigious name coach to hiring an unproven commodity and subsequently undermining him as soon as things go bad. The Jay Gruden hire might be a good or even brilliant one, but the people we have selecting personnel and protecting our new coaching hire from our owner's impulsive behavior are people whose employment is predicated on not being held responsible for their organizations' failures.

Makes me so confident about our future....

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Crazy old Shanahan was calling the defense. Relax.

 

Plus JKC didn't live in the 24 hour sports news era. Could you imagine what would have happened today when his wife got drunk and climbed on top of a car? It's a different time. 

 

This hire makes sense in every conceivable way, I'll accept keeping Haslett if Gruden is who I believe he is.

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How did Shanny call the plays in St. Louis or New Orleans?

 

Good point, but wasn't Haslett better there than here? At least in New Orleans.

 

As bad as the defense was let's not pretend they DIDN'T have the worst secondary in the league and the corpse of London Fletcher at MLB.

 

Honestly, all I need to hear is "MS called plays and rewrote playbooks" and I say "case dismissed" against Haslett and Morris.

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You either believe Bruce and take him at his word that he is responsible for all GM duties and the buck, and ultimate axe if it goes tits up, stops with him. 

 

Or you (understandably given the majority of the past 15 years) think he's lying and this is the same ol' same ol'.

 

I don't know what else you can do that will help you.

 

Hail. 

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Haslett is not going to be the defensive coordinator some of you guys are crying over something that isn't going to happen. You heard gruden said there are a lot of coaches out there looking for an opportunity and he hasn't decided yet he will interview those coaches which means "I'm not risking my reputation on coordinators who were still on the staff when they went 3-13". So relax men and enjoy the ride, now if he's not successful in 3 years then bring the pitchfork lol. 

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Great work on the OP, amigo, independent of the actual positions taken. That's the kind of thing we want more of on ES.  Many will likely find out the kind of stuff we don't want the hard way, if they don't pay attention to what they should.

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I can't really dispute your assessment, but I will add that it would be a bit short sighted to ignore the overall impact the head guy has on all operations and the organizational culture. I have never played professional football but I can relate this to my military experiences. As a military officer I have seen creativity and leadership smothered by poor command, only to flourish later under genuine leadership. I am not defending Haslett because I concur with your assessment, but I have not given up hope that it can get better. I don't know if Jay Gruden is the guy guy, but I am fully onboard to give him a chance.

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Good point, but wasn't Haslett better there than here? At least in New Orleans.

 

As bad as the defense was let's not pretend they DIDN'T have the worst secondary in the league and the corpse of London Fletcher at MLB.

 

Honestly, all I need to hear is "MS called plays and rewrote playbooks" and I say "case dismissed" against Haslett and Morris.

 

 Nah, don't say that; Haslett was also responsible for tearing down the Steelers defense as well, so I over-rule your 'case dismissed' verdict. :P .

 

Question now is, exactly how much of a leash, if any, does Haslett have?  Will he have full control over the defense, or will there be other influences ?  I admit, it shocked me to hear MS meddled with the defense, but it doesn't excuse Haslett from his career as a failure as DC.  In his career, he's had 2 good seasons either as HC or DC, and 14 bad; thats not a good track record to base keeping him here.

 

To be honest, i'm not sold on Morris either, but i'd gladly give him the DC job if Haslett were canned, but there are others out there who could do a better job, so this could be the first real issue with Gruden later on.

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Good point, but wasn't Haslett better there than here? At least in New Orleans.

 

As bad as the defense was let's not pretend they DIDN'T have the worst secondary in the league and the corpse of London Fletcher at MLB.

 

Honestly, all I need to hear is "MS called plays and rewrote playbooks" and I say "case dismissed" against Haslett and Morris.

Not really, Haslett was actually worse in St Louis, where his defense was ranked 31st, 31st, and 28th in points allowed.  The prior two years in New Orleans they were 28th and 27th.

 

I think the subordination points is an interesting one, though I dont agree with all of it.  You have to wonder HOW competent someone can be who would allow themself to be a subordinate to someone who is that bad.  Good coaches get fed up and leave, bad coaches need the job.

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Jim Haslett has a long history of disappointing to dysfunctional defenses. When he was announced as defensive coordinator, I knew the Shammy experiment would fail, because he had clearly learned nothing from his firing in Denver, and would continue to choose sycophancy over competency when it came to staff. After 4 years of crumbling defenses including a final year of putrid embarassments, Haslett keeps his job while the RB coach gets canned

 

 

Not true.

 

Jay and Bruce were on the radio yesterday and both mentioned that the coaching staff hasn't been assembled yet. Also, Bobby Turner hasn't been fired.

 

And to throw out some numbers. Redskins defensive rankings since Haz took over:

 

YPG.

2013: 18th

2012: 28th

2011: 13th

2010: 31st

 

I still think Haz needs to go, but he's not the worst defensive coach in football. In fact I'll raise you one more, remember Ron Lynn? Remember the 1996 Skins D? Yeesh.

 

BTW I like your avatar photo. I have a pug too!

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Not true.

 

Jay and Bruce were on the radio yesterday and both mentioned that the coaching staff hasn't been assembled yet. Also, Bobby Turner hasn't been fired.

 

And to throw out some numbers. Redskins defensive rankings since Haz took over:

 

YPG.

2013: 18th

2012: 28th

2011: 13th

2010: 31st

 

I still think Haz needs to go, but he's not the worst defensive coach in football. In fact I'll raise you one more, remember Ron Lynn? Remember the 1996 Skins D? Yeesh.

 

BTW I like your avatar photo. I have a pug too!

 

"He's not the worst defensive coach in football" is not a reason to keep him. This cronyism needs to stop with this dysfunctional organization. 

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Ironic in the year we made the playoffs, that the defense was ranked 28th, sandwiched around a 13th and 18th where we sucked arse.

 

Can anyone explain that?

 

And our great playoff run in 2012. That was not RG3 dominating either. He was ailing, Garcon was slowed etc.  It was a defense becoming super aggressive starting the bye week attacking Foiles and every QB after that, which got us into the playoffs. Teams could no longer game plan knowing we would not attack the QB. It was a game changer.

 

Even against Seattle with no offense after the 1st 2 drives, our defense kept us in that game.

 

I for one like to grade a bit more heavily on playoff games, over regular season games, given that sample. Haslett had Reed ALL over Wilson. That was an excellent adjustment no one talks about, talk was all about RG3's injury / Mike leaving him in. And that GD fumble still burns my britches.

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"He's not the worst defensive coach in football" is not a reason to keep him. This cronyism needs to stop with this dysfunctional organization. 

 

Did you not see where I wrote Haz needs to go?

 

Oh and cronyism is everywhere, Harbaugh took assistants from Stanford, Chip Kelly took some people from Oregon, and Bruce Arians took coaches from IND and PIT

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The Haslett concern is valid, but I don't think you can pin the overall roster on Bruce Allen. Shanahan built this roster. The only thing Bruce seemed to be really involved in was free agency, and I'd say getting Garcon and Stephen Bowen were great moves. At worst, he approved and made deals that Shanahan requested, and at best they were his ideas. The fail wide receivers and dwarf o-linemen and defensive backs have nothing to do with Bruce.

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Did you not see where I wrote Haz needs to go?

 

Oh and cronyism is everywhere, Harbaugh took assistants from Stanford, Chip Kelly took some people from Oregon, and Bruce Arians took coaches from IND and PIT

 

They took assistants that are capable. Haslett has yet to know he's capable of running a successful defense. Cronyism is everywhere, however, I bet if those assistants at other places sucked as hard as Haz, they wouldn't keep them.

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I don't think you can pin the overall roster on Bruce Allen. Shanahan built this roster. The only thing Bruce seemed to be really involved in was free agency, and I'd say getting Garcon and Stephen Bowen were great moves. At worst, he approved and made deals that Shanahan requested, and at best they were his ideas. The fail wide receivers and dwarf o-linemen and defensive backs have nothing to do with Bruce.

I'm not sure how carefully you read the original post, but your reply actually proves the point I was making. The defense given against the culpability of everyone in our front office for being involved in multiple failed regimes is that his voice was overruled by someone else. Morocco Brown was ignored first by Cerrato, then by Shanny...Scott Campbell was overruled by Schottenheimer, then by Cerrato, then by Shanny...Allen wasn't really making the draft picks in Tampa Bay or in DC. Even more bewildering is the automatic supposition that so and so was only involved in these good situations, but in none of the bad.

Are these the right guys to be charged with providing top personnel for our new coach and, perhaps more importantly, protecting him from an impulsively meddling owner.

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Haz is the number one reason I can't get excited about the potential  of this coaching change/ FO "changes".

 

But as others have said, let's not condemn Gruden's coaching choices solely on cronyism. Everybody gets jobs because of who they know and people hire people that they work well with. There's nothing wrong with that in general... where it becomes an issue is when there are qualified candidates (maybe W Phillips for instance) out there who don't suck as bad as the people you hired because you know them. 

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.....

Are these the right guys to be charged with providing top personnel for our new coach and, perhaps more importantly, protecting him from an impulsively meddling owner.

 

Aside from the fact I don't believe he's 'meddled' for 4 years now, at all; yes, I do believe these guys deserve a shot. 

 

The whole structure has changed for the very first time. Their voices haven't been overruled. They literally haven't had one. 

 

Again, it comes down to whether you believe Bruce Allen is lying. 

 

If you do, then your stuck between a rock and a hard place thinking it's the same ol' same ol' made worse ny the fact we have a 'pseudo' GM. 

 

If you don't, and take him at face value that's he's finally the GM, and Brown and Campbell will finally be listened to as part of the GM 'committee' if you will; then your willing to give them a chance to let this play out under the new, proper administrative structure that thus far under this ownership hasn't been here. 

 

I personally subscribe to the latter and fully believe he's telling the truth and have full faith in the structure going forward. But I FULLY understand and appreciate those reticent that have their serious doubts after the last 15 years of this ownership. 

 

Hail. 

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Aside from the fact I don't believe he's 'meddled' for 4 years now, at all; yes, I do believe these guys deserve a shot.

If you don't, and take him at face value that's he's finally the GM, and Brown and Campbell will finally be listened to as part of the GM 'committee' if you will

I agree he hasn't meddled at all in the last 4 years, nor did he meddle at all during Gibbs' tenure, nor Marty's for that matter.

Again, please go back to the OP. Snyder goes through entirely predictable cycles. He hires an unproven offensive coach, undermines him when things go awry, gets ripped a new one for meddling, then follows up by hiring a big name retread and ceding entire control of the roster. When that inevitably fails, he goes back to hiring an unproven offensive coach. Rinse, lather, repeat. Maybe Morocco Brown and Scott Campbell are undiscovered brilliant personnel men, but there is proof yet.

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Remember when Vinny was promoted to Exec. VP of Football Operations after Gibbs retired? Remember what was "leaked" to the media and said about him then? That he was against bringing in Lloyd, Archuleta, and basically all the failed FA acquisitions under Gibbs. Oh, and he was against our numerous trades where we sent so many draft picks to other teams that left us depleted every draft?

 

Yeaaaaaah... I'm so shocked that very few have noticed the EXACT same thing happen here. I posted quotes from Campbell as recently as last year where he was saying how involved he's been, more than ever, under Shanahan. Morocco Brown got interviewed by the Cardinals after the 2012 season. I wonder if he was saying to them, you know when we had just come off that awesome run, "yeah you know very few of those players were really my choice"?

 

Yeah, the delusion is at an all time high here.

 

I'm not saying Bruce, Brown or Campbell will fail. I'm just tired of the whole "focus our blind rage on the one guy who is gone so we can all simply assume the problems are over". Riiiiiiiight.

 

I think it's hilarious anytime I read anything like "Mike was calling the D" in defense of Haslett and/or "Mike was ignoring his scouts" when propping up Brown/Campbell. Even though none of that makes any sense when taking into account the direct quotes from those men as well as the points Rod-riggo just made in his OP.    

 

THINGS WERE DIFFERENT UNDER MIKE SHANAHAN. He was not calling every defensive play and Haslett is as bad as he seems. We don't even know how many times Mike got involved with the D and IT ENDED UP WORKING OUT. We're so ridiculous right now that we just assume anytime he did it was for the worst! The personnel department were heavily involved and listened to. None of it is any different than what was stated  at Jay Gruden's presser, that they'll all have a voice and that they'll disagree with each other. The only difference is Bruce has final say, but we don't know how many times Mike used his so-called "final say" and we won't know how many times Bruce will, either. We do know that, whenever asked about it, Mike said it was the same for him in Denver and he never had to use his final say because everyone was heavily involved in every decision. But, yeah, Mike is the murdering liar now I get it. Let's just stop with this delusional crap. 

 

We don't need it to be hopeful or optimistic. 

 

 I'm all for being hopeful and optimistic as everyone here who knows me can attest. But I never believed I was being delusional when I had that hope and optimism. Now, I'm hopeful and optimistic that Jay can really bring a great scheme and great assistants to help us out. I actually like our roster so I'm not so mad about retaining Brown/Morrocco. But what I WON'T be is delusional about what it means if we retain Haslett and I WON'T be so delusional as to pile all of our issues right on to the man who gave us the single best season we've had in 14 years or arguably two decades.  

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