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HTTR24-7.com; The Real Difference Between Kirk Cousins and Robert Griffin IIII


KCClybun

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Hey, I managed to get through this one without even cursing out Mike!

 

1.) Can we just, like, stop trying to rip each other's heads off with this Kirk vs. RGIII stuff? I mean seriously. Most teams don't have one good quarterback. We have two. That's a luxury. But this Redskins Civil War thing that's brewing? It's stupid.

 

2.) Also, it's dumb to blame anything that's happening right now on Kirk. Kirk's just going out there and doing what he's told. He's saying all the right things because ... well, what in the blue hell is Kirk to say? "I hate Mike Shanahan and his dumb son Kyle too"? Kirk's a good dude in a bad, BAD situation right now, and he as to make the best of it he can.

 

3.) Here's part of the difference between Kirk and RGIII, and part of what I think is a combination of a coaching failure and player error. Let's say RG3 gets this play...

 

Click here to read more.

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Excellent read, but I do think Robert is better at this game of progression/reading Ds than we are giving him credit for. I've seen some breakdowns of plays made by opposing Defenses against us recently (most notably the Chiefs) where Robert correctly went away from his primary read after the snap.

 

One play in particular was against KC, where we ran double wide right, corners in press, with a quick slant/out route combo (a pick play basically). The Chiefs covered it beautifully, with the cover guys not crossing and the MLB jumping the slant route. If Robert throws that, it's at best an incompletion, most likely a pick, and probably a pick 6. He pulled it down and went over to the left side of the field. It doesn't make the stat sheet, but I thought that was a heck of a play by him.

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An article seemingly fueled more with attempting to break down tape rather than express your emotions, and as such one of the best from you I've read in a while. A great take, backed up with interesting insight, on the differences between them both and where they're likely to head. I also think it's a fair notion about Kyle...that he may have a good system, and may be a good coordinator, but he's seemingly not a good TEACHER and as such needs a more developed passer.

 

Kind of goes back to the notion of the Shanahan's wanting a QB they can play like they have a "joystick". Someone they can plug in and basically just does exactly what's coached. The problem is that in reality is that now that Kyle has that in Griffin (Who really does seem to try and go out and do exactly as coached) we realize that's NOT what his offense needs...because no offense works from the sideline 100% of the time. They need someone who will do exactly as called for...but with the know how of the position to change things up a bit when needed.

 

Kyle seemingly needs a more talented Rex Grossman....NOT a guy like RG3 who plays best seemingly from a very instinctual point and needs to be coached up in terms of the intricacies of pocket passing.

 

Kirk fits that bill, Rex doesn't.

 

I still think a silver lining of all this is if Kyle ends up getting a job at a team with a struggling QB and manages to help push through a trade for Cousins that goes to our benefit.

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Eh, I can't get past statements like this:

 

"And what Kyle has said all week is this; based on this coverage, and this down and distance, this route WILL be open. Not “it might be, it should be, it could be.”

 

Is the claim here really that Kyle is too stupid or too inexperienced to realize that sometimes the defnese wins, or he realizes that, but he just likes to lie to RGIII.

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I reject the notion that if RG3 had been in the Falcons game, the offense would have looked the same.  I also reject that the Falcons game looked anything like the NY Giants game.  It would have been like the Minnesota game if non-RG3 players had fumbled 4 times in that game, and if RG3 had completed any of his 3 pass attempts at the 4 yard line at the end of the game.  Cousins completed his TD pass, and only needed a conversion in order to win.  Despite 4 turnovers by non-Cousinses.

 

More generally, this is the difference between RG3 and Cousins so far:

 

RG3 has never had a game in which he passed more than 37 times and had our team within 2 scores with at least 2:00 left in the game.  In summary, when RG3 throws more than 37 times, we get blown out.

 

In 2012 against Carolina, he threw 39 times and produced only 215 yards through the air.  Before the 4th quarter, we converted only 1 of 10 times on third down passing plays.  We finished the game something like 2/13 on 3rd down passing plays (conversions, not completions).  The game was 21-6 until we scored a garbage time TD at 1:28 which would have required us to win an onside kick and score a TD in less than a minute and a half.

 

In 2013 against the Eagles, he threw 49 times.  As of the end of the second quarter, he was 3/8 passing, with a fumble, interception, sack, and only 1 passing first down.  Our first offensive TD came with 6 seconds left in the third quarter.  With 2:00 to go in the 4th, the Skins were still down by 2 TDs and had no timeouts.  Griffin score the John Beck touchdown with 1:14 left in the game, still needing a successful onsides kick and a TD.

 

Against the Packers he threw 40 times, going 5/13 in the first half, with 1 INT, 1 sack, and 4 passing first downs.  Our first offensive points would come with 4:30 left in the 3rd quarter, down by 5 scores.  Our final TD for the day came with 7 minutes to go, and brought the score to 20-38.

 

Against Detroit, he threw 50 times and we were down by 10 points until 1:40 left in the game (FG).  We even got the ball back, with 0:38 to go (and a timeout), but didn't move it past the 50 yard line.

 

Against Dallas, which is now the worst defense in the league, he threw 39 times and we lost by 16, getting shut out in the 4th quarter.

 

Kirk Cousins has had two games.  In the first game, the Redskins relied almost completely on Cousins' arm to carry our team to victory.  37 passing attempts resulted in a comfortable 2 TD win over the Browns - the 2nd largest margin of victory that we have had since RG3 & Cousins joined the team.  In his second game, Cousins threw the ball a whopping 45 times and had us in a position where we went for 2 because the coach was so confident in how our offense looked.  This, despite non-Cousins players on the team turning the ball over 4 times (Griffin has never had to overcome more than 2 non-Griffin turnovers, and we lost that game).

 

In summary, when Griffin throws a lot, we lose.  We lose ugly.  When Cousins throws a lot, we are winning dominantly or overcoming ridiculous odds to still be in a position to win.  One supposedly is the franchise QB, and the other is the guy we need to ship off to another team.  Right?

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I reject the notion that if RG3 had been in the Falcons game, the offense would have looked the same.  I also reject that the Falcons game looked anything like the NY Giants game.  It would have been like the Minnesota game if non-RG3 players had fumbled 4 times in that game, and if RG3 had completed any of his 3 pass attempts at the 4 yard line at the end of the game.  Cousins completed his TD pass, and only needed a conversion in order to win.  Despite 4 turnovers by non-Cousinses.

 

More generally, this is the difference between RG3 and Cousins so far:

 

RG3 has never had a game in which he passed more than 37 times and had our team within 2 scores with at least 2:00 left in the game.  In summary, when RG3 throws more than 37 times, we get blown out.

 

In 2012 against Carolina, he threw 39 times and produced only 215 yards through the air.  Before the 4th quarter, we converted only 1 of 10 times on third down passing plays.  We finished the game something like 2/13 on 3rd down passing plays (conversions, not completions).  The game was 21-6 until we scored a garbage time TD at 1:28 which would have required us to win an onside kick and score a TD in less than a minute and a half.

 

In 2013 against the Eagles, he threw 49 times.  As of the end of the second quarter, he was 3/8 passing, with a fumble, interception, sack, and only 1 passing first down.  Our first offensive TD came with 6 seconds left in the third quarter.  With 2:00 to go in the 4th, the Skins were still down by 2 TDs and had no timeouts.  Griffin score the John Beck touchdown with 1:14 left in the game, still needing a successful onsides kick and a TD.

 

Against the Packers he threw 40 times, going 5/13 in the first half, with 1 INT, 1 sack, and 4 passing first downs.  Our first offensive points would come with 4:30 left in the 3rd quarter, down by 5 scores.  Our final TD for the day came with 7 minutes to go, and brought the score to 20-38.

 

Against Detroit, he threw 50 times and we were down by 10 points until 1:40 left in the game (FG).  We even got the ball back, with 0:38 to go (and a timeout), but didn't move it past the 50 yard line.

 

Against Dallas, which is now the worst defense in the league, he threw 39 times and we lost by 16, getting shut out in the 4th quarter.

 

Kirk Cousins has had two games.  In the first game, the Redskins relied almost completely on Cousins' arm to carry our team to victory.  37 passing attempts resulted in a comfortable 2 TD win over the Browns - the 2nd largest margin of victory that we have had since RG3 & Cousins joined the team.  In his second game, Cousins threw the ball a whopping 45 times and had us in a position where we went for 2 because the coach was so confident in how our offense looked.  This, despite non-Cousins players on the team turning the ball over 4 times (Griffin has never had to overcome more than 2 non-Griffin turnovers, and we lost that game).

 

In summary, when Griffin throws a lot, we lose.  We lose ugly.  When Cousins throws a lot, we are winning dominantly or overcoming ridiculous odds to still be in a position to win.  One supposedly is the franchise QB, and the other is the guy we need to ship off to another team.  Right?

No WRONG IMO

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Like I Said, This RG3 Vs. Kirk Stuff Is Dumb And I Refuse To EngaGe In it.

...says the esteemed author of, and I quote, "The Real Difference Between Kirk Cousins and Robert Griffin III", an sourceless opinion article which claims that much of RG3's failures are because, well, he's just too damned good at doing what Kyle told him to do.

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...says the esteemed author of, and I quote, "The Real Difference Between Kirk Cousins and Robert Griffin III", an sourceless opinion article which claims that much of RG3's failures are because, well, he's just too damned good at doing what Kyle told him to do.

So I've been ignoring your ridiculous cherry picked stats arguments for a couple days but I'll chime in just this once. It's the stupidest thing I've ever read. Cause and effect bud, we're a run first team and only pass a lot when we're behind, so naturally if we're losing Griffin will pass more. Want to compare that to Cousins? He has TWO ****ing career starts. STUPID. Ya know who looked good in his first start or two? Matt Flynn. 6 TDs in a meaningless game. Made him a ton of money for a career backup. You cannot judge a QB in two starts at all, and you certainly shouldn't be making stupid arguments based on cherry picking stats to fit your ridiculously small sample size.

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This is such a stupid argument and debate that is going to just get louder and more annoying as time passes. Regardless of which QB you like better, its disturbing to see how many people are ready to bash RGIII, a player who helped the team win its first divisional title in years.

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I'm certainly not a football expert. In fact, a lot of these dues cussing, I don't even understand the buzz words being thrown around. Couldn't tell you what press coverage is, or name a single pass route.

But I do listen to the radio broadcasts, and at least to me, Cooley sounds like an expert, at least compared to me.

And he's been making claims all year that seem similar in some ways to your article.

He's been claiming for weeks that, when Robert scrambles, and buys time with his legs, that the receivers don't have a plan for where to go, to give him an outlet. That there's no "scramble drill".

Seems rather similar to your post, complaining about a lack of offensive flexibility.

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I had been thinking a lot of similar things recently, Kyle has done a horrible job developing RG3. The college plays, hello, its not rocket science, those are doing NOTHING to help him develop. Kyle will say he had to cal those things, I claim bunk.

 

Robert does not need a single WR route to complete a throw, and actually doing so, makes it harder on him. These last 3 games were perfect for Kyle to get out of his RG3 comfort zone, and let Robert read the field in live fire and see how he does.

 

Hell, if I was OC, I would have let RG3 call a set of plays in a series in a blown season. I do not have an ego to think I know better from the stands what can be exploited, than the QB on the field talking to the WR after the play. How is he covering you. OK same play, but this time we pump him and go deep. Simple stuff, yet Kyle is making it all far far too difficult, yet ironically, will tell you he is keeping it simple.

 

Simple, clearly failed. Changing QB's does not change the root problem that I now believe to be true, Kyle is not smart enough to develop RG3.

 

For he is still likely developing as an OC, himself. It's not rocket science. He and his staff are noobs in the grand scheme of the game.

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Excellent read, but I do think Robert is better at this game of progression/reading Ds than we are giving him credit for. I've seen some breakdowns of plays made by opposing Defenses against us recently (most notably the Chiefs) where Robert correctly went away from his primary read after the snap.

 

One play in particular was against KC, where we ran double wide right, corners in press, with a quick slant/out route combo (a pick play basically). The Chiefs covered it beautifully, with the cover guys not crossing and the MLB jumping the slant route. If Robert throws that, it's at best an incompletion, most likely a pick, and probably a pick 6. He pulled it down and went over to the left side of the field. It doesn't make the stat sheet, but I thought that was a heck of a play by him.

 

5 good plays out of 50 each game does not make a good QB. ... Just ribbing you. Look, it's not about just reading defenses with RG3. Its about seeing what the defense is going to do and "adjusting" his protection to pick up the rush. Its also about staying in the pocker (where RG3 does not feel comfortable) and going through all his reads. I think many of fans have said last year and this year that RG3 has either thrown the ball away or ran when he had an open man down field. Many of people fans and people in the know are saying RG3 is not reading the "whole" field. The Chiefs game was a prime example; the Chiefs must have seen on film or something that RG3 locks onto a target and stays with it. It was pointed out that where ever RG3's head went the defense was clued in by it and all rushed to that side of the field. 

 

Honestly, RG3's tipping his hand is no different to a OL rocking back on his heels when it a pass play or leaning forward if its a run play. If it tips off the defense either correct the problem or get off the field. 

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Here is my opinion about RG3's play this season. I have no comment on Kirk yet.

 

I don't think Kyle puts any plays into his game plan that have RG3 looking down a single receiver. In almost all of his plays, he has a pre-snap read that tells him where his post-snap read will be. That post snap read is almost always a safety, or an OLB...sometimes an ILB, or if cover-3, a CB.

 

In the case of the diagram you showed, his pre-snap read defined that his post-snap read would be the safety on the left side (#24 Charles Woodson) of the field. I'll put aside that the read on the right side would have worked also, but he may have brushed that read-off because Ross ran forward, and then back again right before the snap.

 

Now, both of those left side routes are timed to coordinate with RG3's footwork. RG3 SHOULD take three small steps back, bounce off his back foot, take a hitch step forward while beginning his throwing motions and release. When throwing from the correct footwork, his accuracy and velocity are fantastic. It takes about 2.5 seconds, and he needs to read Woodson in that amount of time.

 

If Woodson's hips turn toward the come-back route, RG3 should throw to the crossing route in the middle. If his hips turn toward the crossing route, RG3, should fire toward the come-back...all in-time with that footwork.

 

In the 2nd pic, we can see that the Woodson's hips are turned...all the way...and RG3 STILL HAS THE BALL!!!! In that 2nd pic, Paulsen should have the ball, not RG3. Any throw that RG3 does now, will be out of an abbreviated step, with mostly arm power, with less than optimal accuracy.

 

That has been his problem this year. Instead of trusting his read, and throwing on time, he holds the ball until he sees a receiver gain space. The receiver will not be open at the time that he begins his throwing motion, but WILL be open when the ball arrives. He needs to trust this. Not just that the receiver will be open, but also that the accuracy that comes with a correctly timed throw will make anything the defender does futile.

 

This has nothing to do with Kyle's work in developing RG3.

 

It has everything to do with the fact that RG3 did not receive the work during the off-season to drill that read instinct, timing, and resulting confidence into his head. He was doing rehab instead. This was amplified by the fact that in the early games he appeared to have a fear of stepping forward in the pocket out of a protective instinct for his knee. So, now he has bad timing, and bad habits. He needs an off-season to drill these things in, and he'll be fine.

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Greg Cosell in his regular segments on 980 has said multiple times that the Redskins offense is very simple and as easy as it gets to scheme against, he also flat out said the Redskins have done RG3 a disservice by running the plays they do, becuase it retarts his progress as a pocket passer.  Cooley has said multiple times that the Redskins play action plays this year are super predictible and unimaginative. Logan Paulsen has said that defenses have made good counters this season to the Redskins offense and the offense hasn't countered back.  A lot of smoke there.  Point is that it seems that if you are going to rely on your first read in this scheme, this year, you are going to have problems, because the defense is likely going to have a good handle on what's coming.  

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That may well be fully accurate Airyx. Good analysis and thanks for sharing your observation.

 

Right or wrong that is a fine attempt to discuss the root of the teams failures, its offense.

 

But I cannot for the life of me understand how he lost that ability. Maybe the knee injury is in play, but I do not feel a QB, any NFL QB needs 3 months of OTA reps to know when a WR is going to make his break on a simple down and out, or a hook. The exact same WRs he had the previous year.  I know its all timing, but one one thousand, two one thous.... throw.

 

Just throw the ball. If its too early, it hits him in the back. It just seems we have seen little compensation. Maybe 3 months of drill work is needed, or, maybe one week of the other extreme. Practice hitting him before he makes his break. Unorthodox Coaching Central. Right in the center of this back, have fun with it.  Maybe he would find, he is right on time. 

 

I used to think live fire, the collapsing OL is in play. But that should lead to hurried throws. My theories are a mess but are fun to discuss with all the civil diehards here.

 

And thanks for the high complement WhoRUSupposed2Be

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Here is my opinion about RG3's play this season. I have no comment on Kirk yet.

 

I don't think Kyle puts any plays into his game plan that have RG3 looking down a single receiver. In almost all of his plays, he has a pre-snap read that tells him where his post-snap read will be. That post snap read is almost always a safety, or an OLB...sometimes an ILB, or if cover-3, a CB.

 

In the case of the diagram you showed, his pre-snap read defined that his post-snap read would be the safety on the left side (#24 Charles Woodson) of the field. I'll put aside that the read on the right side would have worked also, but he may have brushed that read-off because Ross ran forward, and then back again right before the snap.

 

Now, both of those left side routes are timed to coordinate with RG3's footwork. RG3 SHOULD take three small steps back, bounce off his back foot, take a hitch step forward while beginning his throwing motions and release. When throwing from the correct footwork, his accuracy and velocity are fantastic. It takes about 2.5 seconds, and he needs to read Woodson in that amount of time.

 

If Woodson's hips turn toward the come-back route, RG3 should throw to the crossing route in the middle. If his hips turn toward the crossing route, RG3, should fire toward the come-back...all in-time with that footwork.

 

In the 2nd pic, we can see that the Woodson's hips are turned...all the way...and RG3 STILL HAS THE BALL!!!! In that 2nd pic, Paulsen should have the ball, not RG3. Any throw that RG3 does now, will be out of an abbreviated step, with mostly arm power, with less than optimal accuracy.

 

That has been his problem this year. Instead of trusting his read, and throwing on time, he holds the ball until he sees a receiver gain space. The receiver will not be open at the time that he begins his throwing motion, but WILL be open when the ball arrives. He needs to trust this. Not just that the receiver will be open, but also that the accuracy that comes with a correctly timed throw will make anything the defender does futile.

 

This has nothing to do with Kyle's work in developing RG3.

 

It has everything to do with the fact that RG3 did not receive the work during the off-season to drill that read instinct, timing, and resulting confidence into his head. He was doing rehab instead. This was amplified by the fact that in the early games he appeared to have a fear of stepping forward in the pocket out of a protective instinct for his knee. So, now he has bad timing, and bad habits. He needs an off-season to drill these things in, and he'll be fine.

I agree that part of it is Rob's footwork, and I think you're right about him reading Woodson. However, I also think he's reading D.J Hayden (I think) playing off coverage. So he's reading man coverage with a single safety high, with Hank one on one with Hayden. If Hank sells the "go" on his route, that should get Hayden going vertical and make Woodson play over top the route. Then Hank's comeback is open (in theory) if he gets those guys to buy the vertical route.

Also agree the ball should've gone to Paulsen --- he's wide open. But route progression starts with Hank outside, then comes back to Paulsen. Picture doesn't show it, but Rob hit his back foot and starts to throw the comeback. I see both Rob and Kirk make throws like that.

...it is so refreshing talking football and not bull****...

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