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Another punt play controversy!


Godfather151981

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First off it's tough to win when you turn the ball over seven times. However that muffed punt really left me scratching my head. Remember against Dallas when the ref ruled that you couldn't block a player into the ball, or whatever it was? Last I checked you can't interfere with a fair catch either. Granted this isn't an apples-to-apples comparison, but the Redskins have now kind of gotten burned at both ends of the stick when it comes to muffed punts. Atlanta kicked a FG on the ensuing drive, and they won the game by a point; do the math.

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It was ridiculously missed...can't review if he was "hit by a player" but you can review if he was "hit by the ball" or some garbage is what they said(they being the announcers)...I swear they change this rule for our games as the play develops...he was clearly hit...I told my daughter "that just cost us the game"...

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I also find it interesting that both plays (the Dallas and Atlanta plays that is) were "non-reviewable."

 

I'm derailing for a second (my apologies) but I'm growing less and less patient with the replay rules. I think coaches should be allowed to challenge anything, including judgment calls. It can still be up to the ref to make his judgment but he gets the benefit of the replay to do so.

 

I would give each team another challenge or two so that they have 3-4 per game, including things like pass interference, etc. Why have replay if there are so many non-reviewable plays?

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I tend to get in on some of these bad call threads,as I feel the officiating league wide is horrendous.I believe the league is complicit,I don't think they do enough to put competent refs on the field. I feel it is ruining the game. Between some of the non-sensical rules, the inconsistency in calling penalties,and the large amount of missed calls, way too many outcomes end up in the hands of the officials.The League needs to makes some changes that would insure better officiating and it should start with younger guys and more off season training. They needs to grade the officals and have those grades mean something(monetary)    

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I tend to get in on some of these bad call threads,as I feel the officiating league wide is horrendous.I believe the league is complicit,I don't think they do enough to put competent refs on the field. I feel it is ruining the game. Between some of the non-sensical rules, the inconsistency in calling penalties,and the large amount of missed calls, way too many outcomes end up in the hands of the officials.The League needs to makes some changes that would insure better officiating and it should start with younger guys and more off season training. They needs to grade the officals and have those grades mean something(monetary)    

But this is EXACTLY what the NFL tried to do and it lead to replacement refs where we all screamed.

One of the biggest issues is that the NFL wanted it to be full time Refs, So during the week the refs would still spend all their time studying, reviewing, focusing, training, getting feedback, etc....

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At this point we should just go all out punt block everytime. Why even bother with a return game? We literally get nothing everytime. Brian Mitchell in his prime wouldn't be able to return kicks with our awful blocking schemes. At least if we go all out for a block everytime we might actually get one and we won't risk fumbled punts.

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But this is EXACTLY what the NFL tried to do and it lead to replacement refs where we all screamed.

One of the biggest issues is that the NFL wanted it to be full time Refs, So during the week the refs would still spend all their time studying, reviewing, focusing, training, getting feedback, etc....

As far as I know the referee stoppage that occured before was largely over compensation.The League tried to squeeze the refs and it didn't work. If the NFL puts up enough money the the striped shirts will go along.The NFL needs to spend the money to improve the product,it's not like they can't afford it.

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 Why have replay if there are so many non-reviewable plays?

That sir is the $2billion or however much the NFL makes off of TV contracts question.

 

Hail

Personally, considering the speed of the game, all the crap they have to look for on every play, and the myriad rules they have to enforce, I think the refs do an amazing job.  

Sorry Dan, But I have to disagree with you on that one. I'm sure you will not lose any sleep over my opinion though. ;)

 

Hail

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Personally, considering the speed of the game, all the crap they have to look for on every play, and the myriad rules they have to enforce, I think the refs do an amazing job.  

I would totally disagree.Some may do a good job while too many are consistently bad.There are certain crews that if they are doing a game you know it isn't going to be well called.The missed call for the illegal hit to the helmet of the Bengal's punter last night was a perfect example of refs not calling what was out in then open for all to see.Other times they call a helmet to helmet when it clearly isn't.The Bengal's punter has a broken jaw and a cracked vertebrae in his neck and the Steelers scored,no penalty was called on the play.Ed Hocculi was the head ref last night in the Steeler/Bengal game. How many times have his crew been the center of controversy?

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I would totally disagree.Some may do a good job while too many are consistently bad.There are certain crews that if they are doing a game you know it isn't going to be well called.The missed call for the illegal hit to the helmet of the Bengal's punter last night was a perfect example of refs not calling what was out in then open for all to see.Other times they call a helmet to helmet when it clearly isn't.The Bengal's punter has a broken jaw and a cracked vertebrae in his neck and the Steelers scored,no penalty was called on the play.Ed Hocculi was the head ref last night in the Steeler/Bengal game. How many times have his crew been the center of controversy?

Constantly.

The NFl always says the same thing. "They get 98% of it right".

OK, that's great, but that 2% that they screw up is VERY BAD.

for one, it's a lie. There is no way they get it even close to 75% right. Old football axiom: there's holding on every play, and they miss it or don't call it nearly every time.

This year in particular, Holding has all but disappeared unless it is egregious and MUST be called. "Hands to the Face' has replaced it and is called as often on DL as on OL. (maybe 2 or 3 times a game.)

OK, so they want to protect QBs, I get that, and they've decided to ignore holds. (Given it is league wide, every game, i would say it's a conscious decision by the NFL.. a point of de-emphasis if you will.)

So, ok, then take it out of the rulebook, because if you don't, and fail to call it, there's no way I'm buying the company line of how much of the game the refs call correctly. It's a lie.

Illegal contact... defenders are not supposed to touch a receiver after five yards, yet we see hand fighting all the way up and down the field all day long, don't we? Why have the rule if they are only going to call it whenever they want?

This is a cut and dried rule. Are his hands on the man? Yes? Flag. No? Go.

But they only seem to call it as the pressure of the game ratchets up.

The problem is that they have inserted so many "Judgment calls", in which it is up to the ref on the spot to decide if he's seeing a foul. How often do you see that call made for the first time in a ballgame on a big third down or in the 4th quarter?

refs are human, when pressure mounts in the game, their trigger fingers get itchy because they start thinking about all the judgment calls they have to make. When a team is driving for the game tying or winning score, they get tougher on defenses. It is not unusual to see such drives aided by 2 or even 3 ticky tack personal foul calls.. 30 to 45 yards! (We've benefited.. we got a REAL cheesy 'defenseless receiver' call on San Diego in the 4th on a play that Pierre actually ran the man down.

Receptions,, oh my GOD what they have done to reception rules.. on EVERY PASS the ref must look for

illegal contact / decide whether he's a defenseless receiver / launching/ hit to the head / helmet to helmet (this is different)/ offensive pass interference, defensive pass interference / watch the ball all the way in, see if the man has it and makes something called a "football move" before it can actually be called a catch. If you have the ball with two feet in bounds, now you must hold it alllllllll the way to the ground even if that is WAAAAAAY out of bounds. It's ****ing STUPID.

(Sorry,, this rant is beginning to ramble... so onward,)

For ONE, if the man has the ball and his feet come down in bounds than it's a catch, if the ball is dislodged OUT of bounds it doesn't matter because the play is OFF the FIELD at that point.

By the SAME logic, if a RB is heading up the sidelines and gets cracked, when he lands out of bounds and the ball comes loose, why isn't it a fumble? (Because the ball is off the field. Same as this dumbass 'control to the ground even when out of bounds' bull****. The ball is off the field, and so long as it is possessed while ON the field, what happens out there is inconsequential.)

Ball secured, two feet down. That's how it always was, and I don't see why it needed improving. It's ****ed up the game.

And yet this same game that has turned that into such a fiasco will call a touchdown if you barely tap the pylon as you're losing control of the ball while flying out of bounds. It makes no sense. Why would Chewbacca live on Endor? it doesn't make sense.

Pass interference used to be the ONE big judgment call they had. I can't count how many controversies have surrounded it since I have been watching football.. big games, small games, many many controversies.. some right ,some wrong.

Point is, it's a judgment call in the days that there weren't many judgment calls that needed to be made, and they did make mistakes. Football is by and large a simple game.. is he holding or not? Is he offsides or not?

back then we all learned to live with the judgment PI call because "nobody's perfect" was something we could accept, since it was really the only 'judgment' call they had to make.

So the NFL has fanatically increased the number of judgment calls.

defenseless receivers, illegal contact, helmet to helmet, launching, guessing the intent of the players .. did he catch it, did he hold it all the way into the locker room.. is that a football move, is his shin down, was his wrist down.. oh my god they have turned the game into such technical minutia.. it's ninnying. Football is about lining up and settling it on the field. Not all of this ridiculousness.

I used to joke and say we should cut a conditioning asssistant and hire a sideline lawyer to argue calls. I'm not so sure it's such a joke anymore.

So getting 95+% of it right doesn't fly anymore.

The refs have too many ways they can interfere in the game. the rules are so screwed up and so plentiful that the variances in officiating from crew to crew are HUGE. Teams cannot prepare for their opponent and whichever ref crew they're getting this week, and they should not have to.

they should expect pretty much the same enforcement of the rules each week by any crew they have.

But they don't get that, and this combined with outrageous rules that will eliminate defense before long have thrown the competitive balance of the entire game.

~Bang

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Change it to the college system. It actually moves fast and has a better accuracy rate. College coaches still get challenges if the booth decides not to make a review.

College football has the best replay system of all sports. They review every play, and it's quick.

I think the issue is that judgement calls always seem to go one way. This is true in all sports; ever notice that some teams rarely ever have to complain? 

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I would totally disagree. ... The missed call for the illegal hit to the helmet of the Bengal's punter last night was a perfect example of refs not calling what was out in then open for all to see. Other times they call a helmet to helmet when it clearly isn't. The Bengal's punter has a broken jaw and a cracked vertebrae in his neck and the Steelers scored,no penalty was called on the play.

 

That's a very good example to use. You concluded it was an illegal hit after watching several replays from a variety of angles, including a slow motion replay from a high definition camera zoomed in on the action from an end zone location.

I watched it too. From the live view and the first replay, it appeared to me - and others, including Cris Collinwworth - to be a clean block. The blocker didn't launch, didn't lead with his head, and it appeared that he made initial contact with his shoulder. Only after a slow motion, end zone replay did you see that, though primary contact was in the chest area, the crown of the blocker's helmet caught the chin of the Bengals punter. And that conclusion comes after focusing on those two players to the exclusion the other twenty players on the field.

And even after that, there are some NFL experts who say that it was a clean, if devastating, hit. Yet you blame the official for not making a call in real time in the space of the millisecond it took for that hit to occur. I submit that the best referee in the world could easily have passed on that call just as likely as making a call. They don't have the benefit of 20/20, slow motion hindsight.

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By the same token when we see these refs throwing flags on defenders because a clean hit in the chest caused a head to snap back, I can't nod along anymore.

Inconsistency caused by too many judgment call rules leads to the overall product being eroded.

We've seen refs throw flags in just our games this year for this.. they got Cofield or baker,, can't recall which.. for a helmet to helmet hit in which he clearly hit the QB in the chest.

we've seen offensive pass interference called in the Chargers game in which the receiver and defender never even came within 2 feet of one another.

2 IFs.

IF 1..... if the refs have more judgment calls to make, then their judgment should be reviewable. if the game has gotten so fast that they can't see bang bang plays that cause devastating injuries to a man's head then they need to be held accountable ON THE SPOT. Challenge and ask for a flag on a play that one was definitely committed.

(Opens up Pandora's box, eh? Oh well... the NFL opened it first.. this Goodell fueled orgy of rules has made it so.)

IF 2... IF that punter was a quarterback on an interception return, the flag would have instantly been thrown, and the defender fined heavily.

Anyone doubt that?

~Bang

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