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The roughing the passer call on Kiwanuka


penasquito

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Hi ATN.  Hopefully you've seen the call that Giants fans are pissed off about, which was a roughing the passer penalty on Mathias Kiwanuka at about the 9:15 mark of the 3rd quarter.  The very next play was a late hit out of bounds on Antrelle Rolle, and the Cowboys eventually scored when Jason Witten apparently made himself invisible to anyone wearing white pants.

 

So, did you think it was a penalty?  Is Tony Romo sits to pee a **** for lobbying the officials for a flag?

 

My take is that it was a penalty whether Kiwanuka got him up above the shoulders or not, because it was late.  Well after the ball leaves Romo sits to pee's hand, Kiwanuka takes another step towards him and launches himself (leaves his feet) and it's his trailing arm that gets Romo sits to pee around the neck.  I think Kiwanuka made it easy on the ref with the clothesline, but the flag would have been justified even if the hit was 'clean'.

 

Here's a gif if you want to watch it over and over again, forever.  http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2013/11/24/5141406/roughing-the-passer-penalty-wipes-out-fumble-recovery-for-giants

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No and the only way you can think that's a penalty is if you're a cowboys fan. It was an awful call at a crucial point of the game and it most likely decided the outcome. It was a football hit, was definitely not a clothesline, face mask, horse collar or dirty hit, I mean he let go almost immediately. After watching Griffin get killed repeatedly after the ball has been out of his hands for 2 seconds right in front of the official and no flag being thrown that damn sure shouldn't have been a penalty. And furthermore, roughing the passer penalties need to be reviewable at this point because they're now deciding games.

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There's plenty of these calls in EVERY game.

 

How about the b.s. penalty on Carr when Randle fell down?! That negated a fumble WE recovered ... which eventually LED to a Giants TD.

 

How about the obvious Dez catch in the final minutes?!? Catch, possession, three steps AND A KNEE DOWN.

 

We're not griping today, because Romo sits to pee was clutch for once and converted the next down.

 

Had we NOT won the game, this is a non issue call.

 

He clearly hit Romo sits to pee in the head/neck area. It happened two steps after Romo sits to pee had released the ball. It's a penalty .. and for the fact that Romo sits to pee was lobbying for calls is a crock. Romo sits to pee has one of the lowest % of penalties called for him in the situation in the NFL.

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There's plenty of these calls in EVERY game.

 

How about the b.s. penalty on Carr when Randle fell down?! That negated a fumble WE recovered ... which eventually LED to a Giants TD.

 

How about the obvious Dez catch in the final minutes?!? Catch, possession, three steps AND A KNEE DOWN.

 

We're not griping today, because Romo sits to pee was clutch for once and converted the next down.

 

Had we NOT won the game, this is a non issue call.

 

He clearly hit Romo sits to pee in the head/neck area. It happened two steps after Romo sits to pee had released the ball. It's a penalty .. and for the fact that Romo sits to pee was lobbying for calls is a crock. Romo sits to pee has one of the lowest % of penalties called for him in the situation in the NFL.

 

The obvious Dez catch? Yeah, you might need to explain that one.

That personal foul is a BS call, a BS call that now happens at least once a game in the NFL, it doesn't make it less of a BS call that it happens commonly now, and as noted quarterbacks that run a lot don't get these joke calls in their favour nearly as often. I thought the second personal foul on Kiwanuka was also weak, it reeked of bias, they could have given everyone or no one a personal foul there, Kiwanuka didn't hit first or last.

And your claim "Romo sits to pee has one of the lowest % of penalties called for him in the situation in the NFL".... Yeah that's not a made up fake stat...

 

Both our teams suck, but you are a ridiculous homer. I can't wait to watch the Cowboys either not make the playoffs or give up 300+ yards rushing and get annihilated in the first round of the playoffs.

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The obvious Dez catch? Yeah, you might need to explain that one.

That personal foul is a BS call, a BS call that now happens at least once a game in the NFL, it doesn't make it less of a BS call that it happens commonly now, and as noted quarterbacks that run a lot don't get these joke calls in their favour nearly as often. I thought the second personal foul on Kiwanuka was also weak, it reeked of bias, they could have given everyone or no one a personal foul there, Kiwanuka didn't hit first or last.

And your claim "Romo sits to pee has one of the lowest % of penalties called for him in the situation in the NFL".... Yeah that's not a made up fake stat...

 

Both our teams suck, but you are a ridiculous homer. I can't wait to watch the Cowboys either not make the playoffs or give up 300+ yards rushing and get annihilated in the first round of the playoffs.

 

From 2007 - 2011, Romo sits to pee received ONE roughing the passer call.

http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2011/10/1/2461690/the-nfl-and-roughing-the-passer-brady-manning-vick-Romo sits to pee-brees

 

Romo sits to pee had 3 roughing penalties in the 10 games he started in 2006 (one against the Bucs from Chris Hovan, one against the Eagles from Cole, one against the Lions from Kinoy Kennedy) and one other from Sean Taylor that was offset by an intentional grounding. Since then, though, the only roughing penalty Romo sits to pee has gotten was the final week of 09 in the shutout against Philly from Fokou. Other than that... not a single roughing call.

 

If im not mistaken, he had 1 in 2012 and two this season.

 

So that makes what? 5 from 2006-2011. Meanwhile guys like Jay Cutler (11), Brees (10), Brady (8), Rodgers (6) all had more in ONE season than Romo sits to pee had in almost an entire career. Hell, Garrard, Trent Edwards, Fitzpatrick, Hasselbeck all received more calls in ONE season than Romo sits to pee did in most of his career.

 

With the Dez catch, Dez Bryant catches the ball, brings it into his body, controls it, gets two feet clearly on the ground, the ball never moves until his torso hits the ground. It is ruled an incompletion, no review.

 

Could the call have gone either way? Sure. But to NOT review it? That's beyond ridiculous.

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From 2007 - 2011, Romo sits to pee received ONE roughing the passer call.

http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2011/10/1/2461690/the-nfl-and-roughing-the-passer-brady-manning-vick-Romo sits to pee-brees

 

Romo sits to pee had 3 roughing penalties in the 10 games he started in 2006 (one against the Bucs from Chris Hovan, one against the Eagles from Cole, one against the Lions from Kinoy Kennedy) and one other from Sean Taylor that was offset by an intentional grounding. Since then, though, the only roughing penalty Romo sits to pee has gotten was the final week of 09 in the shutout against Philly from Fokou. Other than that... not a single roughing call.

 

If im not mistaken, he had 1 in 2012 and two this season.

 

So that makes what? 5 from 2006-2011. Meanwhile guys like Jay Cutler (11), Brees (10), Brady (8), Rodgers (6) all had more in ONE season than Romo sits to pee had in almost an entire career. Hell, Garrard, Trent Edwards, Fitzpatrick, Hasselbeck all received more calls in ONE season than Romo sits to pee did in most of his career.

 

With the Dez catch, Dez Bryant catches the ball, brings it into his body, controls it, gets two feet clearly on the ground, the ball never moves until his torso hits the ground. It is ruled an incompletion, no review.

 

Could the call have gone either way? Sure. But to NOT review it? That's beyond ridiculous.

 

First off, you  offer no data at all past an article published Oct. 1 2011. So you don't offer the 2011, 2012, or 2013 data. Which for all we (and you) know could show that Romo sits to pee has the most personal foul calls called against opposing teams in each of those years. If you honestly believe that Romo sits to pee, the Quarterback of the Dallas Cowboys gets worse treatment as far as personal fouls and less protection from referees than other NFL quarterbacks every year you are either:

 

A. A huge homer.

B. A conspiracy theorist.

 

 

The Dez Bryant "catch" could not have gone either way. It wasn't a catch and it would not be ruled one. But you can keep pretending it was I guess. In one statement you clearly state it was a catch and he established himself in bounds with two feet and his torso before the ball moved, the very next sentence you say how you see how it could be ruled either way. Seems like you don't even believe yourself. The booth didn't review that because it wasn't a catch, I suppose you think this is again an NFL plot to hurt your team?

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No and the only way you can think that's a penalty is if you're a cowboys fan. It was an awful call at a crucial point of the game and it most likely decided the outcome. It was a football hit, was definitely not a clothesline, face mask, horse collar or dirty hit, I mean he let go almost immediately. After watching Griffin get killed repeatedly after the ball has been out of his hands for 2 seconds right in front of the official and no flag being thrown that damn sure shouldn't have been a penalty. And furthermore, roughing the passer penalties need to be reviewable at this point because they're now deciding games.

 

100%

 

Is this a judgement call type thing? If so their judgement is horrible. It seems like there is "no-fly" zone on QBs. If you even come close to it you're in trouble, which is ridiculous. Those roughing penalties should be reserved for those deliberate hits, which are the easiest thing in the world to see. And I haven't seen one of those in quite some time. Guys are getting flagged for playing the game of football. Well, what it used to be anyway.

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the most charitable way I can put this is perhaps its something the rules committee should take a look at.  I doubt they will change their minds and begin instructing the referees to start giving defenders a pass if they hit the QB in the neck but not the head, but you never know. 

 

If the Ahmad Brooks hit on Drew Brees is a penalty, when Brees still has the ball in his hands and the hit starts off right at the numbers and only slides up to the neck/head area after the initial contact then the Kiwanuka hit on Romo sits to pee was absolutely called properly according to the rules as they stand right now.

 

On another note, can coaches just throw a challenge flag whenever they want to talk to the referee?  They don't actually have to challenge anything and it doesn't cost them a time out, or a delay of game, or anything?

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First, we have proven over the years that the pukes get calls to go there way.  Sad, but a part of the game.

 

That said, from watching the refs protect QB's and any hint at a blow to the head this season, I can't argue with the flag.  The league has changed and they are calling that.  Cam N. got a personal foul call yesterday when he slipped out of bounds in the 4th quarter after being slightly touched.

 

Like it or not, that is what the refs are starting to flag.

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First off, you  offer no data at all past an article published Oct. 1 2011. So you don't offer the 2011, 2012, or 2013 data. Which for all we (and you) know could show that Romo sits to pee has the most personal foul calls called against opposing teams in each of those years. If you honestly believe that Romo sits to pee, the Quarterback of the Dallas Cowboys gets worse treatment as far as personal fouls and less protection from referees than other NFL quarterbacks every year you are either:

 

A. A huge homer.

B. A conspiracy theorist.

 

 

The Dez Bryant "catch" could not have gone either way. It wasn't a catch and it would not be ruled one. But you can keep pretending it was I guess. In one statement you clearly state it was a catch and he established himself in bounds with two feet and his torso before the ball moved, the very next sentence you say how you see how it could be ruled either way. Seems like you don't even believe yourself. The booth didn't review that because it wasn't a catch, I suppose you think this is again an NFL plot to hurt your team?

 

This is from 2012

And without going game by game and call bu call, it's not possible to double-check which QBs were specifically hit.

That said......

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ap5j9D-

lYmsDdHFZQmZ6S0FIaGxFWDlsZy1MSWRpOWc&usp=sharing#gid=0

Numbers came from the following sites

http://www.nflpenalties.com/penalty/roughing-the-passer?year=2012

http://wp.advancednflstats.com/teamOL.php?year=2012&season=all

 

So for people saying that Romo sits to pee is a beneficiary of calls like that is wrong.

 

The Dez catch in my eyes and a majority of people, believe it's a catch. He caught the ball, gained full possession of the pass, remained having control of the ball and had control once his knee hit. That's like if a player has the ball stripped out of his hands after the knee hits the ground .. the play is done from there. I'm not a referee, so the call could've gone either way. But why was it not challenged? Shouldn't a play that is THAT close to a catch, been reviewed? Can the refs see how close it was in real time to determine no challenge was needed?

 

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First, we have proven over the years that the pukes get calls to go there way.  Sad, but a part of the game.

 

That said, from watching the refs protect QB's and any hint at a blow to the head this season, I can't argue with the flag.  The league has changed and they are calling that.  Cam N. got a personal foul call yesterday when he slipped out of bounds in the 4th quarter after being slightly touched.

 

Like it or not, that is what the refs are starting to flag.

 

Penalty or not, they need to be more consistent.

 

If you call something like they did on Cam or RGIII, it needs to go the same way. Same being said for Manning and Brady.

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First, we have proven over the years that the pukes get calls to go there way.  Sad, but a part of the game.

 

 

Link?  Stats?  Evidence?  And who is 'we'?

First off, you  offer no data at all past an article published Oct. 1 2011. So you don't offer the 2011, 2012, or 2013 data. Which for all we (and you) know could show that Romo sits to pee has the most personal foul calls called against opposing teams in each of those years. If you honestly believe that Romo sits to pee, the Quarterback of the Dallas Cowboys gets worse treatment as far as personal fouls and less protection from referees than other NFL quarterbacks every year you are either:

 

A. A huge homer.

B. A conspiracy theorist.

 

 

 

Good lord.  He showed you stats.  Sure, Romo sits to pee could have drawn 422 personal foul penalties for roughing the passer from the time of the article until now.  If that is something that you believe is possible, why don't you go do the leg work to prove it?  Else, simply saying that because something is possible that it, therefore, refutes what evidence has been provided is just silly.  You are lazy and, seemingly, pissed off that he contributed facts to the conversation while you contributed fairy tales and fantasy.

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Link?  Stats?  Evidence?  And who is 'we'?

Good lord.  He showed you stats.  Sure, Romo sits to pee could have drawn 422 personal foul penalties for roughing the passer from the time of the article until now.  If that is something that you believe is possible, why don't you go do the leg work to prove it?  Else, simply saying that because something is possible that it, therefore, refutes what evidence has been provided is just silly.  You are lazy and, seemingly, pissed off that he contributed facts to the conversation while you contributed fairy tales and fantasy.

 

 

Hi.

 

A quick perusal of the data shown, after I requested he back up HIS claims shows:

 

New York has 9 roughing the passer calls in their favour since 2009 (including 2013)

Dallas has 7....

 

A difference of 2 calls over 5 years between those two teams... That must be statistically significant and proof of some huge ploy to destroy the  Dallas Cowboys...

 

You guys should actually dig into that link, feel free to compare to other teams, it is quite easy. The Oakland Raiders had 6 in 2012 and 3 in 2011, they must be NFL darlings. But then in 2013 they have none. The NFL must hate Pryor I guess. Dallas has 3 in 2013 and the league average thus far for 2013 is 1.8.  I guess flawed logic espoused above by you two Cowboys fans was that the league hated Romo sits to pee and in 2013 they don't? The league loved the Raiders but in 2013 they don't? Or maybe you guys are just biased homers.

 

You can spin these numbers any way you want, but in 2013 (and really any other year) they sure don't show some plot to ignore roughing the passer when it is the Cowboys quarterback. It is entertaining to hear Dallas fans pretend that the league hates them and is trying to keep them down. The self-proclaimed "America's Team" is somehow downtrodden and picked on by the  NFL. It's cute.

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On another note, can coaches just throw a challenge flag whenever they want to talk to the referee?  They don't actually have to challenge anything and it doesn't cost them a time out, or a delay of game, or anything?

 

No they can't.  If they throw the flag when it's under 2 minutes, a turnover, a touchdown or if they don't have any challenges/TOs left then they are penalized.  

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You can argue that you don't think it should be a penalty all you want because that's your opinion and you're entitled to it but you can in no way say it was a bad call. He hit Romo sits to pee in the neck and the rules specifically say "neck and head area". It was a penalty without question.

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