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Examining Shanahan's Failures In Personnel Acquisition - A Brief Overview:


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I see what you are saying, but at that point, Shanahan wasn't in the classic "rebuild."  I don't want to open another debate on whether or not we were rebuilding (as that has been beaten to death), but I think his goal was to "overhaul" the roster while still trying to win games. 

 

That was just an odd year for the NFL as a whole with the lockout looming.  I'm not sure an UDFA or practice squad player would even still be on this roster today as they've overturned the majority of it.  I give free agency that year a pass more than any.  There just wasn't anything to find.

 

It isn't about rebuilding (though I think that's how we should have gone).  I'm talking about a few roster spots.  I'm not talking about trading/cutting Carter, Cooley, and all of those people.  And today, I'm not talking about rebuilding.  I'm talking about a few roster spots.

 

In terms of today, I even understand why they started the season with Grossman (understand, but don't agree) (RGIII and Cousins injuries, hope that they'd do well and might need a "good" 3rd string QB, etc.), but those reasons are gone.

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I already did. You didn't make an outright claim you just implied we won't build a good offensive line if the majority of our picks go on offensive lineman. If you're dying for an example take the Giants line from 2007, the Texans interior when Arian Foster had his first couple of thousand yard seasons, the Falcons when Michael Turner was in the mix for rushing titles, the Saints under Payton. All very good and recent offensive lines that did not require their teams to spend a majority of their picks on that position to be built, even though a couple of high picks on offensive linemen to blended in.

hey if a team can throw together a rag tag line that works, then good for them. our rag tag line isn't working. and we're not doing much about it. cap penalty you say? then get them in the draft, like im trying to say. the last time we had a good line is in the early 2000's with samuels, jansen, and thomas. 1st and 2nd round picks.

the title of this thread is examining shanahan's failures in personnel acquistion. and im saying his biggest failure is the lack of investment into a good quality offensive line, whether that be through the draft or free agency. if his system requires certain, specialized players that are hard to come by, then his system needs to go. I'll take strong and slow over small and fast any day.

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the title of this thread is examining shanahan's failures in personnel acquistion. and im saying his biggest failure is the lack of investment into a good quality offensive line, whether that be through the draft or free agency. if his system requires certain, specialized players that are hard to come by, then his system needs to go. I'll take strong and slow over small and fast any day.

He has thrown multiple draft picks at the line at various points of the draft.  I'm not sure when late rounders are expected to develop into starters but maybe one or two of those guys develop into serviceable starters.  I would expect LeRibeus to either crack the starting lineup no later than next season...or not at all. 

 

I think as far as drafting goes this year either Thompson or Jamison are okay...but not both.  And I would like to see Nixon back

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hey if a team can throw together a rag tag line that works, then good for them. our rag tag line isn't working. and we're not doing much about it. cap penalty you say? then get them in the draft, like im trying to say. the last time we had a good line is in the early 2000's with samuels, jansen, and thomas. 1st and 2nd round picks.

the title of this thread is examining shanahan's failures in personnel acquistion. and im saying his biggest failure is the lack of investment into a good quality offensive line, whether that be through the draft or free agency. if his system requires certain, specialized players that are hard to come by, then his system needs to go. I'll take strong and slow over small and fast any day.

The problem is they went too extreme in the other direction and the third round pick they did spend on an OL isn't panning out, although his actual regular season game sample is good.

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The problem is they went too extreme in the other direction and the third round pick they did spend on an OL isn't panning out, although his actual regular season game sample is good.

That is a good point. Sure, LeRib in game action was a small sample size, but he seemed to hold up well.

 

Dare I think he may nod off in meetings, if I try to explain why he cannot get a single rep in a year when our interior looks completely over matched, even against backups.   Multiple teams, backups. Many blowouts and chances to try something new.

 

I am losing faith in Shanahans ability to field the best team. As mentioned in another thread, his 2WR by committee sucks as well, and gives robert no chemistry with anyone other than Garcon.

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That is a good point. Sure, LeRib in game action was a small sample size, but he seemed to hold up well.

 

Dare I think he may nod off in meetings, if I try to explain why he cannot get a single rep in a year when our interior looks completely over matched, even against backups.   Multiple teams, backups. Many blowouts and chances to try something new.

 

I am losing faith in Shanahans ability to field the best team. As mentioned in another thread, his 2WR by committee sucks as well, and gives robert no chemistry with anyone other than Garcon.

This year is still young.  Maybe we start "evaluating" players in a week or 2.  I do remember reading that LeRib did not show up for training camp and wow anyone with the condition he was in. 

 

I know first round and second round linemen should start right away.  What are your thoughts on when a 3rd rounder should be a regular starter?  Or moved on from? 

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That is a good point. Sure, LeRib in game action was a small sample size, but he seemed to hold up well.

 

Dare I think he may nod off in meetings, if I try to explain why he cannot get a single rep in a year when our interior looks completely over matched, even against backups.   Multiple teams, backups. Many blowouts and chances to try something new.

 

I am losing faith in Shanahans ability to field the best team. As mentioned in another thread, his 2WR by committee sucks as well, and gives robert no chemistry with anyone other than Garcon.

 

Some players won't put together a string of legendary practices or recite the playbook backwards but when you get them on the field they fight their rear end off for the team. We'll never know what LeRibeus can do until he gets on the field again but if the regular season game sample is good that should at least earn him a shot if the player ahead of him on the depth chart is upping the QB's health insurance rates.

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...

 

I know first round and second round linemen should start right away.  What are your thoughts on when a 3rd rounder should be a regular starter?  Or moved on from? 

There is no go to formula.

 

I am no expert, but if I 3rd rounder is not pushing for starting time in his second season behind an OL that appears to have repeated struggles against the most injury riddled DLs the league has to offer, it's a concern.

 

Was he drafted clearly to be a project, then he gets more time to develop. That begs the question, why the hell did we draft a long term project in the 3rd. 3rd is a starter sooner than later, for many positions.

 

As to when to cut ties, if the guy is bad. trending downward, and is not a long term project that has been committed to, then you cut ties. I have this sneaking suspicion Mike is keeping him to save face. Or, we simply have no one better.  Either way, at some point in the process, Mike did not or is not judging LeRib's abilities. We may well suck at developing linemen.

 

The red flag to me, ballooning to 400, and the likely final straw, was showing up out of shape.  He was a reach in the 3rd round and even Mike says, you don't keep a guy because of his draft position, if there is someone better. Mike's OL depth appears to be very thin, so thin, that a guy like LeRib can still hang around. Who knows.

 

But I do know this, he likely cannot be any less effective than our existing interior in pass pro.

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My thoughts: Shanahan took over a talented YOUNG Denver team with a Pro Bowl QB (Elway) and won 2 SBs. After Elway, he still had a talented team that grew older. What has he done since that time?

If you think he took over a talented young denver team you are misinformed. He transformed those teams from older to younger and added a couple pieces like Gary Zimmerman, Easy ED, cut vets and gave Rod Smith his shot, (which he burned the Great D. Green for a touchdown at the end remember that?) and oh by the way drafted the engine T. Davis that made his superbowl teams go. So no he did not inherit a young talented Denver team.

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If you think he took over a talented young denver team you are misinformed. He transformed those teams from older to younger and added a couple pieces like Gary Zimmerman, Easy ED, cut vets and gave Rod Smith his shot, (which he burned the Great D. Green for a touchdown at the end remember that?) and oh by the way drafted the engine T. Davis that made his superbowl teams go. So no he did not inherit a young talented Denver team.

 

Zimmerman was there.

 

I actually looked.  By any measure the team got older from 1994 (the year before he took over) to 1997 (the year he won the first SB and his 3rd year there).  Even if you take out Elway and look only at the starters (29.4 vs. 27.9).

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/1994_roster.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/1997_roster.htm

 

But even in 1995, his first year there, the roster got older from 1994.

 

Looking at the roster from the two years, Shanahan appears to have succeeded, at least initially, by adding two major young players in Smith and Davis, and then adding a bunch of vets - many of whom he was faimiliar with, including Traylor, Romanowski, and Easy Ed (though Easy Ed wasn't a starter until he went to Denver and even then not the first year, but my 1997 he's starting).

 

But he also added people like Michael Dean Perry, Neil Smith, and Mark Schelerth.

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You guys are looking at what he did in Denver from perhaps the wrong angle. To me his success in Denver is directly corrollated to his shortcomings here. First of all, what nobody can or should deny is that Mike Shannahan is a football savant. In terms of X's and O's there might be a handful of guys at best in the history of this game that can match him in that aspect. In Denver, especially in the Superbowl years, Shanny had the perfect lockeroom in that it was all about X's and O's because your Elways, Nalens, McAffreys, Smiths, Davis, etc...did not need someone to get in their face or have to motivate them in any special way to get the small and seemingly trivial aspects of the game to be excecuted correctly (We have one London Fletcher, the Broncos superbowl teams probably had at least a dozen)

 

The reason guys like the Harbaughs and Pete Carroll are successful today is because their style of man management fits what player/coach relationships have become. To put it bluntly, (with no intent of trying to take anything away from the Harbaughs or Carroll who are great coaches) most of today's successful head coaches that take over younger teams (Tomlin and Bellicheck are some of the exceptions because of the well established cultures in their organizations) have to play the role of mommy and daddy to get players fired up, and it's proven to work over and over again the past few years. I have no doubt Mike Shannahan loves and respects his players, but he is stuck in the old school, rigid, I'm the general and you're the subordinate player/coach relationship era, and players don't respond to that anymore. Shanny is the head coach that leads as a sepperate entity from the team because until very recently in the NFL, that's how it worked. He's a general through and through, but guys like Harbaugh have succeeded by becoming a type of general/staff sgt hybrid that have established their leadership of the team by doing it from within the lockeroom rather than a sepperate entity. With everything we know about Shanny's personality, does he have it in him to do that?

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You guys are looking at what he did in Denver from perhaps the wrong angle. To me his success in Denver is directly corrollated to his shortcomings here. First of all, what nobody can or should deny is that Mike Shannahan is a football savant. In terms of X's and O's there might be a handful of guys at best in the history of this game that can match him in that aspect. In Denver, especially in the Superbowl years, Shanny had the perfect lockeroom in that it was all about X's and O's because your Elways, Nalens, McAffreys, Smiths, Davis, etc...did not need someone to get in their face or have to motivate them in any special way to get the small and seemingly trivial aspects of the game to be excecuted correctly (We have one London Fletcher, the Broncos superbowl teams probably had at least a dozen)

 

The reason guys like the Harbaughs and Pete Carroll are successful today is because their style of man management fits what player/coach relationships have become. To put it bluntly, (with no intent of trying to take anything away from the Harbaughs or Carroll who are great coaches) most of today's successful head coaches that take over younger teams (Tomlin and Bellicheck are some of the exceptions because of the well established cultures in their organizations) have to play the role of mommy and daddy to get players fired up, and it's proven to work over and over again the past few years. I have no doubt Mike Shannahan loves and respects his players, but he is stuck in the old school, rigid, I'm the general and you're the subordinate player/coach relationship era, and players don't respond to that anymore. Shanny is the head coach that leads as a sepperate entity from the team because until very recently in the NFL, that's how it worked. He's a general through and through, but guys like Harbaugh have succeeded by becoming a type of general/staff sgt hybrid that have established their leadership of the team by doing it from within the lockeroom rather than a sepperate entity. With everything we know about Shanny's personality, does he have it in him to do that?

This whole thread is supposed to be about player acquisition.

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It's okay.  You just stated that everyone is looking at it from the wrong angle.  Just discussing the subject of the thread that's all. I'd suggest just starting a thread on his motivation tactics and coaching philosophy but...

 

Of course it's ok. The conversation went to why he succeeded in Denver personel wise and I think it had more to do with talent and youth. It was a response to the last couple of posts not something I just felt like posting.

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One of Shanahan's biggest failures has been at OL. While the scheme has done a decent job disguising the talent level of the OL, the fact remains that Shanahan has 2 starting caliber OL on the roster in terms of talent, Trent and Chester (and Chester barely so). Monty I was high on but he's a product of the scheme in many ways, as is Kory. Polumbus has looked better but still below average. And we have had opportunities to upgrade at OL (Winston/Stephenson/etc etc) but we've failed to do so.

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LeRib got out of shape last off season.  He may be in shape now, but the fact is the Redskins generally only dress seven OL.  That means either him or Gettis.  For all we know Gettis is the active backup G because he just looks better this year.

 

If the Skins were dressing nine out of ten OL or something then it might be worth complaining about.  As it I don't think so

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Shanny is a mediocre drafter. Hitting on your firsts is nothing special - take a look at our first rounds Pre Shanny

2004: Sean Taylor

2005: Rogers/Campbell

:

2007 Landry

2009: Orakpo

Thats an 80% hit rate. And Campbell really didn't underperform his draft slot.

You're supposed to nail your firsts.

And in Denver Shanny routinely bombed his firsts.

You have a generous notion of hitting your first rounders. Of those you listed, only Taylor was worth his draft slot. The other players are rather average nfl starters. 1st rounders shouldn't be average starters.

Pff had Trent as the best lt in the league prior to denver, kerrigan is usually regarded as among the top 3 or 4 3-4 lolb, and rg3 is the most electric qb in the league when fully healthy. His later picks haven't been poor either.

If only we had sucked enough to get rg3 without trading up, this team could have had janoris Jenkins/cordy glenn/alshon jeffery/bobby wagner and alec ogletree/kiko Alonso/Deandre Hopkins/Desmond trufant. Can't deny the type of impact any 2 of those players would have had on our team this year.

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Shanny is a mediocre drafter. Hitting on your firsts is nothing special - take a look at our first rounds Pre Shanny

2004: Sean Taylor

2005: Rogers/Campbell

:

2007 Landry

2009: Orakpo

Thats an 80% hit rate. And Campbell really didn't underperform his draft slot.

You're supposed to nail your firsts.

And in Denver Shanny routinely bombed his firsts.

So since 2004 to 2009(Pre Shanahan) (6 NFL drafts) we hit on three 1st rounders (Taylor,Rogers,Orakpo) 

 

And since 2010-2013 (Shanahan era) (4 NFL drafts) we hit on three 1st rounders (Williams, Kerrigan, RGIII)

 

Not to mention what Shanny has hit late (Cousins, A.Morris, P.Riley, R.Crawford,Helu,Amerson,J.Reed)

 

Lets not forget the production he got out of undrafted free agents (Brandon Banks, Darrell Young)

 

WOW that guy Shanahan sure is more of the same  :rolleyes:  lmao 

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This should be retitled "Shanahans' Personnel Failures". I'm not a big fan of either Shananigans, but I have to admit getting rid of a lot of the dead wood and bringing in some youth has invigorated the team. The players drafted this year that were expected to perform at a higher level haven't backed up the hype. Reed and Amerson, however, have been a pleasant surprise. We are still lacking several key guys (WR, Pass rushing DE, ILB, Safety). If we can plug in the right FA's next year, who knows?

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Do not know why anyone would complain that Shanahan should have cut Cooley coming into the 2010 season.  Maybe if you let yourself use the magic of hindsight.  Cooley, though coming of injury, was in his late prime.  Individually, 2010 was one of his best seasons, EVER.  He was our best receiver over the first part of the season and nearly so over the back part.  Only Fred Davis had better potential at that time.  Paulsen has exceeded everybody's expectations.

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