Examining Shanahan's Failures In Personnel Acquisition - A Brief Overview:

[SJValleySkinz]

Again, I don't think the McNabb move was a good one looking back but that 2010 draft he was already without a 3rd and 6th.  He got rid of a 2nd only that year.

 

2010 draft picks:

1, 2(McNabb), **3 (Jarmon), 4, 6, 7, 7, 7

There was not a 6th initially due to the Jason Taylor trade so he traded out of the 5th and picked up a 6th and 7th (2).

 

2011 draft picks below:

1,2,3,4,5,5,6,6,6,7,7,7,7

 

So essentially Mike only gave up 1 pick, the 2010 2nd rounder.  Jamal Brown didn't have enough snaps so I don't believe the conditional we traded for him ever ended up being taken away.

 

I don't care what he did essentially, I care that he had an old, talentless roster and wasted three valuable draft picks. What happens after that is meaningless because it was a chain of events started by that error. I keep saying I like what they did after 2010 and you keep bringing it up to make what point I'm not entirely sure, but we'd be farther ahead than where we are now if the 2011 and beyond approach had been taken as soon as the introductory press conference was over.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

Smith had some tremendous drafts in San Diego but his ego thing with Marty really cooled me off him. Those teams had talent though in spades.

[TheLongshot]

The McNabb trade never made sense to me.  In the first year, I expect a lot of evaluating the roster and picking up guys on the cheap.  While I felt the trade for Brown was going to be worthless, the price for him wasn't as bad as I initially thought since we got some picks in change from them.  The Carriker trade was actually a good one, since we didn't give up that much value for him.

 

But McNabb?  We already knew the O-Line was crap.  We brought in the over-the-hill gang at WR.  Even if McNabb played the way he did in the season before, we weren't likely to get good value out of that trade.  To be honest, we would have been better off having Campbell and Grossman battle it out and spend our resources in the next few years building up the OL and offensive weapons so that by the time we draft a QB, we'd have the infastructure for him.  Unfortunately, that infastructure isn't there for RG3, and the price to get him makes it more difficult to build that infrastructure.

[steve09ru]

I don't care what he did essentially, I care that he had an old, talentless roster and wasted three valuable draft picks.

This is the part that you keep bringing up that I keep pointing out.  The fact is he did not waste 3 valuable draft picks in the 2010 draft as you stated.  He only gave up a 2nd rounder in 2010 for McNabb.  The 3rd and 6th rounders we were without were due to Vinny (the 3rd for Jarmon and the 6th for Taylor). 

 

The 2010 draft has produces 3 pro-bowlers out of the 2nd round.  The only offensive players worth grabbing at that time were Gronk (which we already had Davis and Cooley) and Beadles (just drafted Trent in the 1st).  There were a few defensive players that have panned out but not a whole lot has come out of that 2nd round class.

 

The reason I brought up the 2011 draft is because that is where the 2nd part of the McNabb deal and the Brown deal come into effect.  I showed what we had in those drafts to show that the effects weren't as bad as you seem to think.  The only thing that could have been done different is grabbing someone in the 2nd. 

[RG3Hunna]

 Thank you for the response i'll sum it up: so basically you want to keep Shanahan because he asked for 5 years, RGIII is the reason for our struggles this year and not bringing this regime back would be a panic move?  And you're not put off back the lack of results in the W/L column. Is that correct?

 

Your question:

 

In the hypothetical situation where we need a new FO here is what I would want:

 

 

o AJ Smith would be gone. I never liked him in San Diego and his mere presence on our staff bothers me.

o Bruce Allen would be gone in favor of an actual GM.

 

GM: a young Jr. GM that has learned behind a good GM from a successful franchise e.g. Eric DeCosta

 

HC: An offensive minded coach Pete Carmicael, Tom Clements Green Bay OC that isn't from a total different scheme.

Other options: I would like to hire this man Phillip Montgomery (OC from Baylor) as the QB Coach or WR coach or offensive assistant just invent a position to get him on the current staff working with Griff and adding some Baylor into our offense.

Yes, i'm not put off by the results this year because 2010 was a wash (nobodies fault) 2011 we sucked (shanahans fault) 2012 we were good 2013 we suck (RGIII's injury is the fault)

 

 I could see if RGIII was healthy without a knee brace and we were terrible but that's not the case, we suck because RGIII has regressed, the kid does not look like himself and the reason is because of the knee/brace. 

 

On your decision to hire Tom Clements, the guy was a QB coach from 2006-2012 he got the job in 2012 when Philbin packers OC from 2007-2011 was hired as the Head Coach of the dolphins.

What makes you think the guys are going to listen to Tom Clements? What has he won in this league? He was just a QB coach 24 months ago. Look at Schiano, when you don't win anything in this league your players are more likely to turn on you quickly. He needs some pedigree before we give him a HC job. 

 

On Pete Carmichael , they run a different scheme in san diego, they typically like extremely large possession receivers and a power blocking scheme in regards to offensive line play, they have sprinkled some zone blocking schemes this year however due to the hiring of Joe D'Alessandris but Carmichael is a power blocking scheme offensive coordinator he has been running that scheme in san diego since 2009. So you want to waste 2-3 years finding power blocking offensive lineman at LG C RG RT ? and then whats your plans at RB? Alfred Morris can't run behind a Power Blocking scheme he is a zone blocking scheme running back. 

 

I love your phillip montgomery selection though as a QB or WR coach. 

 

On another topic, as fans we need to practice patience, for example I see a LOT of people bashing the Josh LeRibeus pick and it reminds me of the Chad Rinehart pick, well he's in San Diego starting and playing pretty well(prior to his injury), be patient guys, yes I hate being 2-5 too but removing your staff isn't always the best choice. 

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

This is the part that you keep bringing up that I keep pointing out.  The fact is he did not waste 3 valuable draft picks in the 2010 draft as you stated.  He only gave up a 2nd rounder in 2010 for McNabb.  The 3rd and 6th rounders we were without were due to Vinny (the 3rd for Jarmon and the 6th for Taylor). 

 

 

 

The picks were still wasted. That's the point. A 2nd and 3rd are still valuable.

 

 

The 2010 draft has produces 3 pro-bowlers out of the 2nd round.  The only offensive players worth grabbing at that time were Gronk (which we already had Davis and Cooley) and Beadles (just drafted Trent in the 1st).  There were a few defensive players that have panned out but not a whole lot has come out of that 2nd round class.

 

 

Ben Tate is really good too. Significantly better than Helu. Golden Tate is on pace for 1k yards this year. And I'd say Cooley should have been traded that year if you're serious about a rebuild (and I said this at the time)

 

A few defensive players?

 

Mike Washington?

Sean Lee?

Carlos Dunlap?

Terrence Cody?

Brandon Spikes?

Pat Angerer?

 

If you extend it to the 3rd round, you miss out on Jon Asamoah, Major White, Jared Veldheer, Navarro Bowman, Tony Moeaki, Jimmy Graham, Emmanuel Sanders, J.D Walton, Donald Butler, Ed Dickson, Navarro Bowman...and from that spot in the draft, a trade down was more than feasible. Trade down to 50, draft Sean Lee, then pick up Eric Decker or Navarro Bowman.

 

 

 

The reason I brought up the 2011 draft is because that is where the 2nd part of the McNabb deal and the Brown deal come into effect.  I showed what we had in those drafts to show that the effects weren't as bad as you seem to think.  The only thing that could have been done different is grabbing someone in the 2nd. 

 

Kerrigan is great but he's a good notch below J.J Watt. If we don't have to trade down to paper over the McNabb error, we could end up with guys like Justin Houston and Akeem Dent.

 

The point is that Shanahan's errors have caused us to miss out on talent that we could otherwise have had, talent that would have made a major difference in our current position.

[Bishop Hammer]

You will not be a top team forever, when you think that teams will buy into play action indefinitely.

Eventually, be it in early blowouts, or late in games needing a few scores, an OC simply needs to pass the ball. Everyone knows they need to, and everyone knows they will.

That is where all those great running stats and the great yd/attempt stats go out the window. That is where we are dead in the water.

We are one dimensional; not built to come from behind and not built to straight up pass the ball. You can only deceive a defense into thinking you are running so many times. It's that simple. It is an inherit flaw in the construction of the OL when preaching pocket passing as a priority.

The problem is compounded infinitely if the OC does not remain one dimensional in his creating of game plans. Kyle is all over the board; very dynamic and he largely wants to pass, we all know this. He has to go out of his way to get Al carries. His philosophy is not a good fit for Dad's great A1 run blocking OL.

Hit it right out of the park bruv. I've never been sold on Kyle as a great OC. He did well in Hous because he had a plethora of weapons (Foster, A Johnson, etc) and Kubiak was overseeing the whole shebang.

Kyle doesn't have all these toys here. He hasn't shown to be a coordinator who can or will asjust his schemes to his talent. Last year his offense looked good because Griffin and Morris carried his schemes. Now we'ar seeing how inept a play caller KS really is.

[newday]

Shanny has shored up the top positions without locking up too much money into them. That's a minor miracle in today's league and totally different from previous years.

 

QB -- Griffin (Pro Bowl), Cousins 
RB -- Morris (all-time record), Helu

LT -- Trent --> Pro Bowl

TE -- Reed (possible ProBowl), Davis

 

DE -- Orakpo (inherited but kept around despite injury), Kerrigan

NT -- Cofield --> supposedly pretty good but dunno

CB -- Hall (inherited but kept around despite contract issues) --> likely Pro Bowl this year

 

Forbath -- great kicker

 

The rest of the O-line and Safeties are really bad. Team sux overall this year because holes are exploited. Griffin is still learning, and missed the offseason. Needs a couple of years to become an excellent pocket passer.

 

Overall, that's a pretty good record despite bad decisions on McNabb, Carlos Rogers.

 

Cap hit in 2 of his years. NFL negotiations & restriction in another year.

 

I'm for 4 more years of both Shanahans. Dunno about Haslett (needs better personnel)

[RandyHolt]

Hit it right out of the park bruv. I've never been sold on Kyle as a great OC. He did well in Hous because he had a plethora of weapons (Foster, A Johnson, etc) and Kubiak was overseeing the whole shebang.

Kyle doesn't have all these toys here. He hasn't shown to be a coordinator who can or will asjust his schemes to his talent. Last year his offense looked good because Griffin and Morris carried his schemes. Now we'ar seeing how inept a play caller KS really is.

Thanks

 

Friends and I have long theorized that the Shanahan (mike AND Kyle) offense was super secretly..... really.... Kubiak's doing. 

 

Almo we all love his beastly running, but I wonder how much Kyle's hands are tied in not having a strong hands back as his number 1. Foster could do it all. When games dictate he can run Morris 25 times, the play action is easy; any offense can pass with that trump card. You dont need a hands back with that in the fold. 

 

I am no expert but I would think every single OC would prefer that number 1 HB to have great hands, a threat in the passing game. 

 

I dont think its a coincidence that Helu is being integrated into our offense 

[RG3Hunna]

The picks were still wasted. That's the point. A 2nd and 3rd are still valuable.

 

 

Ben Tate is really good too. Significantly better than Helu. Golden Tate is on pace for 1k yards this year. And I'd say Cooley should have been traded that year if you're serious about a rebuild (and I said this at the time)

 

A few defensive players?

 

Mike Washington?

Sean Lee?

Carlos Dunlap?

Terrence Cody?

Brandon Spikes?

Pat Angerer?

 

If you extend it to the 3rd round, you miss out on Jon Asamoah, Major White, Jared Veldheer, Navarro Bowman, Tony Moeaki, Jimmy Graham, Emmanuel Sanders, J.D Walton, Donald Butler, Ed Dickson, Navarro Bowman...and from that spot in the draft, a trade down was more than feasible. Trade down to 50, draft Sean Lee, then pick up Eric Decker or Navarro Bowman.

 

 

 

Kerrigan is great but he's a good notch below J.J Watt. If we don't have to trade down to paper over the McNabb error, we could end up with guys like Justin Houston and Akeem Dent.

 

The point is that Shanahan's errors have caused us to miss out on talent that we could otherwise have had, talent that would have made a major difference in our current position.

But who is to say those players would find success in washington? A lot of players bust because they just don't fit the scheme, sure we missed out on some talent but do we know without a shadow of a doubt that those players would be successful in Washington?

 

Just because team A runs a 3-4 and team B runs a 3-4 doesn't mean they are the same exact 3-4 defense. There's reason why talented players are passed up for certain teams and it's because sometimes they just don't fit the teams scheme. 

 

On another note in 2010 we were just building the scouting department there was an article out where scouts were saying it's a learning experience because they are still learning what Shanahan want's or what he's looking for in a player. You can't judge Shanahan off of 2010 that whole year was a wash in my opinion. Shanahan was trying to find out what the team needed and the scouting department were trying to find out what type of players shanahan wants for his scheme. 

[steve09ru]

The picks were still wasted. That's the point. A 2nd and 3rd are still valuable.

 

 

Ben Tate is really good too. Significantly better than Helu. Golden Tate is on pace for 1k yards this year. And I'd say Cooley should have been traded that year if you're serious about a rebuild (and I said this at the time)

 

A few defensive players?

 

Mike Washington?

Sean Lee?

Carlos Dunlap?

Terrence Cody?

Brandon Spikes?

Pat Angerer?

 

If you extend it to the 3rd round, you miss out on Jon Asamoah, Major White, Jared Veldheer, Navarro Bowman, Tony Moeaki, Jimmy Graham, Emmanuel Sanders, J.D Walton, Donald Butler, Ed Dickson, Navarro Bowman...and from that spot in the draft, a trade down was more than feasible. Trade down to 50, draft Sean Lee, then pick up Eric Decker or Navarro Bowman.

 

 

 

Kerrigan is great but he's a good notch below J.J Watt. If we don't have to trade down to paper over the McNabb error, we could end up with guys like Justin Houston and Akeem Dent.

 

The point is that Shanahan's errors have caused us to miss out on talent that we could otherwise have had, talent that would have made a major difference in our current position.

I'm not disagreeing, I think we could have hit with the 2nd round pick but what would they have been targeting at that time?  What players were on their board?  Who fit the scheme they wanted to run?  There are a lot of what if questions.  The fact is, we don't know what would have come out of the 2nd round.  We can go back and look at every draft and question the selection because someone drafted below them has out produced someone ahead of them.  Again, I agree, he took a shot at McNabb to solve the QB position and go from there and it failed.  There's nothing else that I can really say he's failed out personnel wise that hurt us because he's had $36M less to do it with.

 

Now let's say the 2nd round pick did pan out.  How far ahead would we be?  My guess is not very, success and failure begins with the QB.  None of the players you mentioned above would put us much farther ahead of where we currently are.  May be better defensively, but the front 7 hasn't really been the big issue.  The offense has yet to get going this season and is the reason this team is sitting at 2-5 right now.  Ben Tate wouldn't be doing anything that Morris isn't.

 

And the 3rd round pick was not on Shanny in 2010, neither was the 6th rounder.  I don't know how many times I have to type out that?

[darrelgreenie]

~sharp shooting HC candidates

 

I love your phillip montgomery selection though as a QB or WR coach. 

Just to be clear I don't agree at all that Griffin bears the brunt for the lack of success this season at all.

I was just restating your view.

 

And your sharp shooting of the HC candidate is meaningless. I knew that was the only reason you asked the question in the first place.  Your questions are rhetorical because you've already shown that you're against starting over so you're naturally biased against them. btw Pete Carmichael w/ Saints.

[SJValleySkinz]

This is the part that you keep bringing up that I keep pointing out.  The fact is he did not waste 3 valuable draft picks in the 2010 draft as you stated.  He only gave up a 2nd rounder in 2010 for McNabb.  The 3rd and 6th rounders we were without were due to Vinny (the 3rd for Jarmon and the 6th for Taylor). 

 

The 2010 draft has produces 3 pro-bowlers out of the 2nd round.  The only offensive players worth grabbing at that time were Gronk (which we already had Davis and Cooley) and Beadles (just drafted Trent in the 1st).  There were a few defensive players that have panned out but not a whole lot has come out of that 2nd round class.

 

The reason I brought up the 2011 draft is because that is where the 2nd part of the McNabb deal and the Brown deal come into effect.  I showed what we had in those drafts to show that the effects weren't as bad as you seem to think.  The only thing that could have been done different is grabbing someone in the 2nd. 

 

That's after the fact. They still gave away valuable assets for nothing. We lost a 2nd round pick in 10, and 3rd and a 4th in 11.

[SJValleySkinz]

I'm not disagreeing, I think we could have hit with the 2nd round pick but what would they have been targeting at that time?  What players were on their board?  Who fit the scheme they wanted to run?  There are a lot of what if questions.  The fact is, we don't know what would have come out of the 2nd round.  We can go back and look at every draft and question the selection because someone drafted below them has out produced someone ahead of them.  Again, I agree, he took a shot at McNabb to solve the QB position and go from there and it failed.  There's nothing else that I can really say he's failed out personnel wise that hurt us because he's had $36M less to do it with.

 

Now let's say the 2nd round pick did pan out.  How far ahead would we be?  My guess is not very, success and failure begins with the QB.  None of the players you mentioned above would put us much farther ahead of where we currently are.  May be better defensively, but the front 7 hasn't really been the big issue.  The offense has yet to get going this season and is the reason this team is sitting at 2-5 right now.  Ben Tate wouldn't be doing anything that Morris isn't.

 

And the 3rd round pick was not on Shanny in 2010, neither was the 6th rounder.  I don't know how many times I have to type out that?

 

If we agree that they've done a good job drafting and they have, those picks had a very good chance of turning into starters. You weren't in the draft room so you can't speculate who they would or would not have taken. Going into the 10 and 11 draft with as many picks as possible would have done nothing but good. You say they recouped the picks, but what if the second round pick in 10 turns into a starter? What if they still decide to take that trade down in 11 and get all those picks in addition already having our original 3rd and 4th rounders? You are arguing common sense here. There is no circumstance under which it is excusable for a team with a deplorable roster to trade those draft picks for the players that they were traded for. There's no way to know those picks would have turned into anything for sure but for a team in the position we were there's no such thing as too much draft picks. This isn't something you need to be Ozzie Newsome to understand this is the most basic NFL roster building rule of thumb.

[RG3Hunna]

Just to be clear I don't agree at all that Griffin bears the brunt for the lack of success this season at all.

I was just restating your view.

 

And your sharp shooting of the HC candidate is meaningless. I knew that was the only reason you asked the question in the first place.  Your questions are rhetorical because you've already shown that you're against starting over so you're naturally biased against them. btw Pete Carmichael w/ Saints.

The defense was terrible in 2012 and it's terrible in 2013, the running game was amazing in 2012 and it's still very good in 2013 The WR's were pedestrian in 2012 and are still very pedestrian in 2013 the QB was amazing in 2012 and is now terrible in 2013.

 

I love RGIII just like the rest of you but he has been terrible this year, you have to be blind to believe otherwise, he's thrown boneheaded passes that he would have never done prior. Sure the coaching staff deserves some blame as well but the main culprit of blame is RGIII he has been terrible and it's not his fault because he just isn't healthy and that is why i'm not upset. 

 

How was I sharp shooting your HC candidates? I made a mistake on carmichael for some reason I thought he was still with the chargers my apologies, I like the pick if he has been running the saints offense for all these years. But I HATE the Tom Clements pick, the guy has been an offensive coordinator for less than 24 months do you really think he's HC material yet? 

 

Again my apologies if that guy has been running the saints offense all these years I approve of the move for the saints offensive coordinator. 

[steve09ru]

That's after the fact. They still gave away valuable assets for nothing. We lost a 2nd round pick in 10, and 3rd and a 4th in 11. Now why is that so difficult to understand?

I understand it completely fine, you're the one talking strictly about 2010.  Now if you want to jump to 2011 draft, we can do that.  I'm just saying it's always easy to look back on trades after the fact.  If you were proposed a trade today for a starting RT who is 27-28 years old that has already been to 2 pro-bowls, would you trade a 4th rounder?  There's not many people that would not.

[RG3Hunna]

I understand it completely fine, you're the one talking strictly about 2010.  Now if you want to jump to 2011 draft, we can do that.  I'm just saying it's always easy to look back on trades after the fact.  If you were proposed a trade today for a starting RT who is 27-28 years old that has already been to 2 pro-bowls, would you trade a 4th rounder?  There's not many people that would not.

Exactly, the guy was a two time pro bowl RT who was only 27-28 years old we rolled the dice and lost, but it looked like a great deal on paper, who knew he was spoiled goods?! 

[steve09ru]

If we agree that they've done a good job drafting and they have, those picks had a very good chance of turning into starters. You weren't in the draft room so you can't speculate who they would or would not have taken. Going into the 10 and 11 draft with as many picks as possible would have done nothing but good. You say they recouped the picks, but what if the second round pick in 10 turns into a starter? What if they still decide to take that trade down in 11 and get all those picks in addition already having our original 3rd and 4th rounders? You are arguing common sense here. There is no circumstance under which it is excusable for a team with a deplorable roster to trade those draft picks for the players that they were traded for.

And again, I'm not praising the McNabb trade, in fact, I've stated that was not a good trade in almost all of my posts.  What I am saying is that it didn't set the franchise back a lot like you all keep proclaiming.  You said it best, you don't know what would have come from that pick, it could have been a starter or could have been a bust.  So again, I don't see how missing out on a 2nd and 4th set the team back so far and has turned Shanahan into a failure at personnel acquiring (I know you didn't say that but that's what the thread it about). 

[SJValleySkinz]

And again, I'm not praising the McNabb trade, in fact, I've stated that was not a good trade in almost all of my posts.  What I am saying is that it didn't set the franchise back a lot like you all keep proclaiming.  You said it best, you don't know what would have come from that pick, it could have been a starter or could have been a bust.  So again, I don't see how missing out on a 2nd and 4th set the team back so far and has turned Shanahan into a failure at personnel acquiring (I know you didn't say that but that's what the thread it about). 

 

I was talking about the diabolical egrigiousness of this error in a vaccum. There was no reason whatsoever to do it, and looking back at the very good to great drafting (and managing of the draft I might add) that followed who knows what good could have came of keeping those picks that once again there is no logical explanation in trading away.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

Exactly, the guy was a two time pro bowl RT who was only 27-28 years old we rolled the dice and lost, but it looked like a great deal on paper, who knew he was spoiled goods?!

Uh, Brown was coming off a blown ACL and was already 29. It was a risky move even without hindsight.

[darrelgreenie]

How was I sharp shooting your HC candidates?

Because your psuedo arguments against Clements apply to any HC candidate without previous HC experience; and therefore are weak or spurious arguments.

 

But I HATE the Tom Clements pick, the guy has been an offensive coordinator for less than 24 months do you really think he's HC material yet?

Just like you didn't know about Carmichael do you know anything about Clements? If not you should do some more research he's already been a HC candidate. In the WCO the QB coach is key position in developing your QB and the passing game wco QB coaches have gone from QB coach to HC.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/02/add-tom-clements-to-the-bears-coaching-candidate-list/

http://www.packers.com/team/coaches/tom-clements/bb67e02f-a2b1-4543-83af-00f437249c9f

[Voice_of_Reason]

This is the type of tired thread you get when the team is losing.

This same group won 7 straight last year and won the NFC East for the first time in a decade.

The roster has holes, and some of that is due to the $36m cap penalty.

But Shanahan inherited a team completely devoid of talent AND on cap hell with the AH contract. Tough situation.

The only thing really different from last year to this year is the QB play. Last year RGIII was spectacular. This year he's below average.

Change that, and the whole team looks worse.

Hell, the year before Peyton got hurt on Indy, they were 10-6. Then 2-14 without him. Got good QB. Play from Luck, 11-5.

That's how much good QB play matters.

[PeterMP]

Exactly, the guy was a two time pro bowl RT who was only 27-28 years old we rolled the dice and lost, but it looked like a great deal on paper, who knew he was spoiled goods?! 

 

He was a LT with the Saints before being hurt.

 

It was never about him being spoiled goods (but the fact that the Saints were willing to trade him for so little when I believe they were going to start a rookie at RT should have been a clue that something was up (I also believe he was FA after that year so that if he played really well, he was probably going to demand LT money, which mean he was probably going to go)).

 

It was just about it not making sense in the context of where the team was and what they needed.  I can't find the thread with original trade news, but here's a thread from Nov. of that year.

 

http://es.redskins.com/topic/323863-suffering-from-front-office-bi-polar-disorder/

 

There were several people (including myself) indicating that the trade for Brown and McNabb were just generally the wrong direction.

 

But the fact that you were getting a 2 time ProBowl LT for so cheap should have been an indication that something else might have been an issue.

[ddub52]

Has anyone mentioned that he also drafted Helu? Phillip Thomas may have been a good pick. I guess we wont know until next year. Shanny got Hall to come back for a pay cut and he has been ballin out this year. I'm not saying he's been perfect, but at least give him some credit for what he has done

[skinny21]

There were several people (including myself) indicating that the trade for Brown and McNabb were just generally the wrong direction.

But the fact that you were getting a 2 time ProBowl LT for so cheap should have been an indication that something else might have been an issue.

So, was the trade for a 4th and a conditional 3rd? If he was entering the last year of his deal, injured, and they'd already replaced him adequately... is it really that low of a cost? OTOH, if he had played well for us, yes, he may have wanted too much money (to re-sign) as well as costing us that conditional pick.

I was 50/50 or so on both McNabb and Brown - hindsight says I was optimistic. I'd ding them for the trades, but I also don't feel like they were awful moves. With a full complement of picks and w/o the cap penalty I feel like they would have been very minor mistakes. Unfortunately, we wound up spending 2 2nds and 3 1sts on QB in a 4 year period, and someone stole 36 mil from us. All told? That smarts a bit.