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The Robert Griffin Experience

Examining Shanahan's Failures In Personnel Acquisition - A Brief Overview:

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The story of this team is the repeated errors in player acquisition that goes back to his first year here that have undermined the team's rebuild and continue to haunt us today.

2010:

Tries to shoehorn Fat Albert into the team despite him being a cancer instead of gaining value for him.

Trades premium picks in a strong draft for an aging McNabb.

Trades more picks for an injured Jamal Brown.

Fails to trade guys like Chris Cooley and Andre Carter for picks to further bolster a rebuilding team.

Brings in aging backs instead of developing youth.

Even Campbell could have gotten more picks had it been handled better.

All told, Shanahan could easily have gotten 5 more draft picks that draft, including an extra 2nd or 3rd, by trading aging but productive vets, and not trading for McNabb and Brown. Complete failure, only Trent and Riley make the offseason not an F.

2011:

Decent offseason, but a highly disappointing draft - Hankerson and Jenkins are a product of multiple trade-downs due to 2010s mismanagement. I won't say drafting Kerrigan was a failure, though he's worse than Watt. Solid FAs though.

2012:

Trading for RGIII was the right move, unless you get a crystal ball with Russell Wilson's face in it. They **** the bed after. LeRib was a massive reach. Gettis is raw, as is Compton. We struck gold with Morris. However, we make horrible signings in Morgan (Gaffney was way more productive with Rex), Carriker, meanwhile leaving a quality ZBS RT like Winston on the scrap heap.

2013:

Solid draft, Amerson and Reed look like studs. Rambo looked better yesterday. But we franchised Davis off an Achilles, and Winston and other quality OL lie on th scrap heap again.

Basically, Shanny in his player acquisition has been marginally better than Vinny, trading for aging vets, blown draft picks, and poor strategy overall. He's done a few things but not enough to justify him keeping GM/VP duties.

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I don't have time to respond to this fully/in detail, however I couldn't disagree more with this thread. The players we have on this team thus far are a solid group of guys who are not being put in a position to succed by their respective coaches.

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I am not convinced getting McNabb was Shanahan's  idea. No one would have given us anything higher than what NE gave us and I am surprised we got that. It was obvious what fat albert was after his first yer here. Shanahan's drafts were a lot better than Gibbs 2 or any of vinny's. Plus we have been stuck with a 36m penalty the past 2 years. We are in better shape now than when he got here. I say give him 1 more year, if we do not have a winning record next year then let him go.

 

Not having 2 first rounders and a second really hurt us that was 3 starters

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I agree partially. 

 

Looking back the 2010 offseason should have been MUCH better which started the chain reaction, forcing the team to trade down multiple times in 2011.

 

No McNabb trade+trading Haynesworth (rumors were we could have gotten a 3rd that year) and being bold and trading Andre Carter and a still productive Cooley would have had an impact.

 

Shanahan has done a pretty good job with the draft, but by not blowing so many picks on McNabb/Brown and had he traded Albert earlier, this could have been even better

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I'm curious what grounds you use to determine whether or not trading for RGIII was the right move?

 

Are you suggesting that Mike Shanahan give up GM duties?

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Fred Davis wasn't franchised.

There's no guarantee you get any worth while pick for Carter or Cooley in 2010 even though you're chalking it up as a gimmie. Same goes for saying we should've got more for Campbell.

I can't disagree with you more about Haynesworth. I think that was one of the best moves of the Shanahan era. We were saddled with that contract and the player, and while the chaos sucked the long term benefit of the message it sent in regards to the change in Washington was worth it.

We did manage to get picks for Haynesworth when he looked like a sure cut. The McNabb trade originally turned out horribly, but you fail to mention we did at least get something back in return for him. The trade of a Jeremy Jarmon for our leading reciever in 2010 was a decent move.

I think passing on Gabbert at 10 when EVERYONE in the media seemed to be calling for us to draft him was a great and under rated move. Those trade backs and generating of picks was very good. While I don't think Jarvis or Hankerson are world beaters I believe both are very solid players and Kerrigan has been a stud for our Defense. Yes, he's not DPOY level but no every pick hits like JJ Watt.

LeReibus is my only issue with 2 years agos draft. Cousins was a very good pick at 4. I still like Compton's potential and Gettis as well as late round flier lineman. Morris, as pointed out, is an absolute stud and a steal in the 6th.

I agree the Morgan signing was a miss, but conversely I think the Garcon signing was a hit. You could argue that Vincent Jackson would've been a better choice in the short term, but that's about the only one you could argue. Manningham fizzled. Brandon Lloyd Fizzled. Laurent Robinson fizzled. Meechum fizzled. Garcon was the right pick there out of the FA WR's available.

As mentioned earlier, we didn't franchise Davis. I agree with you about Winston and wonder what exactly went on there, if naything.

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Good point about Gaffney and Morgan.  I don't know if Gaffney would still be better 2 years later, but what they got out of Gaffney completely trumps what Morgan is bringing.  They'd probably wind up having to cut bait with Gaffney after this year anyway, had they kept him.  But I was a big proponent of bringing Gaffney back at the time.  He at least caught the football when it was thrown to him.  

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Fred Davis wasn't franchised.

 

 

My mistake.

 

There's no guarantee you get any worth while pick for Carter or Cooley in 2010 even though you're chalking it up as a gimmie. Same goes for saying we should've got more for Campbell.

 

 

Carter was coming off a double digit sack season and there were several teams that needed a 4-3 DE. Even a mid-round pick would have been okay, same for Cooley (and that year, Kellen Winslow Jr fetched a #2 and a #6, and Jeremy Shockley got a #2 around that same same time frame).

I can't disagree with you more about Haynesworth. I think that was one of the best moves of the Shanahan era. We were saddled with that contract and the player, and while the chaos sucked the long term benefit of the message it sent in regards to the change in Washington was worth it.

 

 

Why didn't we just trade him Shanny's first day here? It was obvious he was a cancer. Pretty sure we could have avoided the cap drama by doing that.

 

The McNabb trade originally turned out horribly, but you fail to mention we did at least get something back in return for him

 

 

We traded a #2 and a #4 (or #3, can't remember how the trades went down) and got back a #6. Totally maximizing opportunity cost.

 

. The trade of a Jeremy Jarmon for our leading reciever in 2010 was a decent move.

 

 

Only decent.

 

I think passing on Gabbert at 10 when EVERYONE in the media seemed to be calling for us to draft him was a great and under rated move. Those trade backs and generating of picks was very good. While I don't think Jarvis or Hankerson are world beaters I believe both are very solid players and Kerrigan has been a stud for our Defense. Yes, he's not DPOY level but no every pick hits like JJ Watt.

 

 

I was high on Hankerson but he's a meh player. Jenkins got hyped in camp but he's just a body, just average. The problem with the 2011 draft is that outside Kerrigan, who's very good, it's just "guys". Contrast with 2013 where our #2 and #3 picks look like potential Pro Bowlers. I suppose you can call passing on Gabbert a success though, but he was never even potentially on the radar.

 

LeReibus is my only issue with 2 years agos draft. Cousins was a very good pick at 4. I still like Compton's potential and Gettis as well as late round flier lineman. Morris, as pointed out, is an absolute stud and a steal in the 6th.

 

 

Cousins is an okay pick that I liked at the time, and probably would still make it - he was the clear BPA. Still, there were starting quality players at other positions. I suppose it looks worse in hindsight though.

 

I agree the Morgan signing was a miss, but conversely I think the Garcon signing was a hit. You could argue that Vincent Jackson would've been a better choice in the short term, but that's about the only one you could argue. Manningham fizzled. Brandon Lloyd Fizzled. Laurent Robinson fizzled. Meechum fizzled. Garcon was the right pick there out of the FA WR's available.

 

 

I wouldn't have signed any WR after Garcon really. I would have stuck with Moss and Gaffney.

 

 

Also trading for RGIII was the right move without the benefit of hindsight (the only better possible move was drafting Russell Wilson in the 3rd, and that's only if you feel like the gulf in talent between the two is less than the value of the 3 picks given up).

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I agree partially. 

 

Looking back the 2010 offseason should have been MUCH better which started the chain reaction, forcing the team to trade down multiple times in 2011.

 

No McNabb trade+trading Haynesworth (rumors were we could have gotten a 3rd that year) and being bold and trading Andre Carter and a still productive Cooley would have had an impact.

 

Shanahan has done a pretty good job with the draft, but by not blowing so many picks on McNabb/Brown and had he traded Albert earlier, this could have been even better

The McNabb trades ended up being 2 picks given up and 2 picks recieved(1 when we sent Jason Campbell to Oakland and the other when we sent McNabb to Minnesota).  I believe the way it all shook out was we moved from the 2nd round to the 6th.  It is worthwhile discussing the trade but should be done in terms of what it really cost us. 

 

Not sure the salary cap implications of cutting Haynesworth.  All reports say that 41million was guaranteed.  Assume that we could have avoided the 21 million if Shanahan cut him prior to that roster bonus.  What happens with the other 20 million? 

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Also trading for RGIII was the right move without the benefit of hindsight (the only better possible move was drafting Russell Wilson in the 3rd, and that's only if you feel like the gulf in talent between the two is less than the value of the 3 picks given up).

All you've done above is just repeated that it was the right move. I'm asking why do you feel trading for Griffin was the right move?

 

 

And are you suggesting that Mike Shanahan give up GM duties?

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The 2010 offseason bordered on criminal, and frustrates me even more because I think they have done a good job in the years that followed. If they would have just kept the picks they wasted on McNabb and Brown, there's a very good chance it would have sent a substantial positive ripple effect through the following offseasons.

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How in the world would shanny be able to trade off haynesworth? he had a freak astronomical cap hit number, what team would be willing to take on the cap hit? That was the problem with trading haynesworth. This is not madden you can't just trade a player because he no longer holds value, you have to fit their cap number under your cap as well. The NFL has one of the strictest cap policies in sports and that is why trades in the NFL barely ever happen compared to NHL MLB and NBA. 

 

A lot of you are overreacting, people early on in the season expected this to be a 7-9 season where we took a step back because the 2nd year of the cap hit really killed us we were able to mask year 1 of the cap hit.

 

This isn't a sprint, it's a marathon the team will learn from this and improve, I choose to look at the bright side the team played tremendously in the 1st half against the best team in the entire league, hopefully we can bring that intensity against a less talented team like the chargers. 

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All you've done above is just repeated that it was the right move. I'm asking why do you feel trading for Griffin was the right move?

 

 

And are you suggesting that Mike Shanahan give up GM duties?

I've often wondered if we make the same trade if the cap penalty was known at the time of the trade.  I'm not convinced that the the perceived available cap room did not play into the decision to trade picks and move up.  It's definitely challenging to improve your team without picks OR cap space. 

The 2010 offseason bordered on criminal, and frustrates me even more because I think they have done a good job in the years that followed. If they would have just kept the picks they wasted on McNabb and Brown, there's a very good chance it would have sent a substantial positive ripple effect through the following offseasons.

The number of picks the McNabb situation cost and retrieved was the same....2.  What changed was giving up a 2nd rounder for a 6th rounder. 

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All you've done above is just repeated that it was the right move. I'm asking why do you feel trading for Griffin was the right move?

 

 

And are you suggesting that Mike Shanahan give up GM duties?

 

Because RGIII as a QB prospect was arguably the best QB prospect since Elway, and getting a QB of that caliber is worth the draft picks given up.

 

And yes, I thought he should have given up GM duties last year. He's been a poor drafter with a penchant for bad personnel management, since the Elway years - he does hit gems like Marshall, Morris, Clady and Cutler from time to time, but more often than not he picks guys like Will Middlebrooks and Jarvis Moss.

Because RGIII as a QB prospect was arguably the best QB prospect since Elway, and getting a QB of that caliber is worth the draft picks given up.

 

And yes, I thought he should have given up GM duties last year. He's been a poor drafter with a penchant for bad personnel management, since the Elway years - he does hit gems like Marshall, Morris, Clady and Cutler from time to time, but more often than not he picks guys like Will Middlebrooks and Jarvis Moss.

 

 

The number of picks the McNabb situation cost and retrieved was the same....2.  What changed was giving up a 2nd rounder for a 6th rounder.

 

And you don't call giving up a 2nd rounder and getting a 6th in return, especially a HIGH 2nd rounder, a ridiculously bad deal? ESPECIALLY when you look at who was drafted in the 2010 second round.

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And you don't call giving up a 2nd rounder and getting a 6th in return, especially a HIGH 2nd rounder, a ridiculously bad deal? ESPECIALLY when you look at who was drafted in the 2010 second round.

Definitely not a great deal.  But you swap from a 2nd to a 6th to take a shot on a solution at QB?  There wasn't one on the roster.  But if you want to criticize the decision just criticize using accurate facts.   

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I thought Griffin was a better prospect then Luck, said so at the time and still believe that now. But, even then I said although I love Griffin the player I'm philosophical opposed to trading multiple picks to acquire a player. And make no mistake the team is negatively impacted by not having those picks. The cost of Griffin makes building around him difficult, especially with limited resources and questionable FO.

 

You think Mike Shanahan would give up the GM duties if asked?

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I thought Griffin was a better prospect then Luck, said so at the time and still believe that now. But, even then I said although I love Griffin the player I'm philosophical opposed to trading multiple picks to acquire a player. And make no mistake the team is negatively impacted by not having those picks. The cost of Griffin makes building around him difficult, especially with limited resources and questionable FO.

 

You think Mike Shanahan would give up the GM duties if asked?

I don't think he would give up the GM duties and I honestly feel he's earned the right(two rings, top 20 NFL coach and future hall of famer) not too. 

 

If you were a two time super bowl champion and future Hall of Famer who did your friend (Daniel Snyder) a favor because nobody of merit wanted to be the coach of his franchise by becoming the Head Coach of his franchise who has been a perennial loser/laughing stock since he purchased the team in 1999 would you give up GM duties to this organization? Or see this as a slap in the face and leave all together off to the sunset and allow your friend (Daniel Snyder) who has been a loser since owning the team to continue being a loser and hire another coach?

 

My post isn't snarky by the way i'm just intrigued on what the "make shanahan give up GM duties" crowd feels. 

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In terms of McNabb, you could have traded Campbell and gone with Grossman + somebody else at QB.  Heck, you could have probably traded for Beck like they did the next year (for which we gave up a guy that didn't end up making it in the NFL).

 

You'd have the 2nd, gained the 6th, and gotten the Beck/Grossman experiment over a year sooner.

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I don't think he would give up the GM duties and I honestly feel he's earned the right(two rings, top 20 NFL coach and future hall of famer) not too. 

 

If you were a two time super bowl champion and future Hall of Famer who did your friend (Daniel Snyder) a favor because nobody of merit wanted to be the coach of his franchise by becoming the Head Coach of his franchise who has been a perennial loser/laughing stock since he purchased the team in 1999 would you give up GM duties to this organization? Or see this as a slap in the face and leave all together off to the sunset and allow your friend (Daniel Snyder) who has been a loser since owning the team to continue being a loser and hire another coach?

 

My post isn't snarky by the way i'm just intrigued on what the "make shanahan give up GM duties" crowd feels. 

I'm a bottom line type of guy. If Mike and staff don't turn the offense around and finish strong I'm ready to move on regardless.

 

And I agree I don't think there is a chance in hell that Mike gives up the reigns without being fired.

 

For me without a turn around this regime is gone. Its a bottom line business and 4 10+ loss seasons isn't good enough.

 

For the first time hire a real GM and let him pick a HC.

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I thought Griffin was a better prospect then Luck, said so at the time and still believe that now. But, even then I said although I love Griffin the player I'm philosophical opposed to trading multiple picks to acquire a player. And make no mistake the team is negatively impacted by not having those picks. The cost of Griffin makes building around him difficult, especially with limited resources and questionable FO.

 

You think Mike Shanahan would give up the GM duties if asked?

 

If Shanny was a better drafter, and was better at other organizational areas, it wouldn't be a problem. Let's pretend the Colts had to trade up for Luck. They lose Fleener (talented TE but they have Allen who's better), and this year Werner (who hasn't done much). And they wasted their 1st rounder trading for Trent Richardson anyway.

 

I understand the philosophical objection to trading multiple high picks for one player, but the picks, while it would have hurt no matter what, would have hurt far less if Shanahan takes Ty Hilton over Josh LeRibeus, takes Gronk, Graham, Zane Beadles, Carlos Dunlap, Sean Lee, Terrence Cody, etc etc, ETC, over trading the pick for McNabb, just to name one example.

 

I'm ready to move on from Shanahan too for the record, but at the very least, he should give up GM duties.

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In terms of McNabb, you could have traded Campbell and gone with Grossman + somebody else at QB.  Heck, you could have probably traded for Beck like they did the next year (for which we gave up a guy that didn't end up making it in the NFL).

 

You'd have the 2nd, gained the 6th, and gotten the Beck/Grossman experiment over a year sooner.

You could have done a lot of things in retrospect but getting the Grossman experiment over a year earlier since 2011 wasn't the year to draft a quarterback.  Cam Newton, Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder were the first round qbs. 

 

So we essentially missed out on Nate Allen(that was the second round pick) and Luke Stocker and ended up with Alfred Morris and Keenan Robinson.

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This is all hindsight. Shanny has missed on some trades and draft picks for sure, everyone does. His drafting has been better then anyone else in Washington in the last 20 years. He has gotten at least 1 probowler in every draft he has had so far and multiple solid contributors in Washington. Riley and Williams in his first draft. Kerrigan, Jenkins, helu, hankerson in his 2nd draft, Griffin and Morris in his 3rd draft, this year he Gets Amerson  (who is playing better and better) and looks to get a stud in the 3rd in Reed. My god who else has drafted that much talent in the last 20 years for washington. He has gotten us out of cap hell, eliminated the crazy contracts, and signed some quality players on the cheap. Let it play out, lets see what his first real offseason looks like and lets see what another year looks like. If it still looks bad yeah time to make the change, but atm I see alot more talent on the team then when he got here and for that I am at least still positive.

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You think Mike Shanahan would give up the GM duties if asked?

 

If you were going to change something up while still retaining Shanahan, I'd do the opposite. Allow him to slide up to the front office and hire a new coaching staff.

 

I'm slowly coming around to preferring a complete change though...keep Allen as the organization's figurehead, hire or promote a personnel guy, and hire a new coach.

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