Atlanta Skins Fan Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 The front office in the offseason got outbid by the Broncos for Daryl Gardener. Gardener of course then proceeded to severely injure his hand (supposedly in self-defense) in a fight. As I've pointed out before, that fight took place in Denver. Alternative universe. Who knows what would have happened if he stayed. I do know this, however. The front office effectively made a choice between two options of similar investment dollars. They chose the first option. I would have chosen the latter option. You make the call: $18.9 million plus three draft picks (#4, #5, #7), getting three years of Brandon Noble, Lional Dalton, Regan Upshaw and Chad Morton $18.7 million, no draft picks, getting FOUR years of Daryl Gardener Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Assuming your fact & figures are correct, I think putting $18.7 million in Daryl Gardener's basket would have been a HUGE mistake. The man is not the kind of stable, consistent producer on the field, or, apparently, off the field, that you invest that kind of scratch in. Certainly not on a team with other needs that you are aggressively pursuing (Coles, Hall, etc.) at the same time. No thanks. Sometimes you actually DO know what you had before it was gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kve Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 a) Just having a solid punt returner not muff a few snaps has kept us close. We had to get a solid retun man. Morton was a required pickup. Noble got hurt, we'll find out about Dalton and Upshaw will be getting more oportunities. Although we really need a good DT, I would still have to go with the 4 vs 1 and the 3 later round picks. kve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posse81 Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 I think time will tell if they made the right choice or not. Remember one big thing about Gardener was his back. Will it hold up? We don't know because he hasn't been on the field. I think it was too much of a risk but we'll see. And the whole fight incident I think was not specific to Denver. He has a history of stunts like this and I think it would have probably happened here eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OaktonSkins/BushFan Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Originally posted by Atlanta Skins Fan As I've pointed out before, that fight took place in Denver. Alternative universe. Who knows what would have happened if he stayed. ASF - While the circumstances (i.e. location/team) are different, apparently Gardener's mental disposition and attitude hasn't changed all that much. He could have just as easily taken some other negative action in Washington had he remained. And if that were the case, then everyone would have jumped on Snyder in much the same way they did in 2000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlanta Skins Fan Posted October 17, 2003 Author Share Posted October 17, 2003 Originally posted by Om Assuming your fact & figures are correct, I think putting $18.7 million in Daryl Gardener's basket would have been a HUGE mistake. To clarify, Om, only Gardener's $5M signing bonus was guaranteed. He was on minimum salary for the first year of the contract. The level of risk (in terms of bonus dollars) was substantially less than, say, Coles. However, Morton, Upshaw and Noble combined for $6.3M in signing bonuses -- and $8.8M including this season's salaries -- and those dollars are definitely gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Clarification noted. Doesn't change my opinion on Gardener, though. The man's a walking train wreck waiting to happen. So far, it's just happened in little installments, interspersed with some nice moment on the field. Didn't believe he was a good risk back when we were discussing whether to try to resign him or not, don't believe it was a mistake now that we didn't. I take it, though, that you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gridironmike Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 4 for 1, takethe four. Noble may never play again or he may come back and help us. Dalton's contributions will be future and Upsahw will be getting more and more time. Morton contributes now. Gardener was pretty good but not totally dominant. I like what we did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sashae Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 I see your point ASF, but it's hard to go with Gardener considering his history. Plus, with John Abraham coming available as an RFA from our New York farm team next year, it'll probably be a moot point -s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlanta Skins Fan Posted October 17, 2003 Author Share Posted October 17, 2003 Originally posted by Om I take it, though, that you do? Sure I do. It's an argument that Daryl's making it hard for me to make, because of the injury and the stupidity involved. But I regarded Gardener last year as a one-man DL who made the entire defense better. I can't tell you how many plays I replayed in slow-mo on Tivo, watching Daryl get double-teamed and still pushing the blockers back toward the QB or blocking the hole on a run. My favorite play: double-teamed and stacked up, he reaches out and makes the tackle on the runner as he tries to go by. Sure, he was a risk. But Noble, Dalton, Upshaw, Morton -- where's the upside? You can't convince me that any of those guys would ever make more than a marginal positive impact on the team. The predictable result was that the DL guys would be below-average players, and Morton would be a decent returner who hit on two or three nice returns a year. That's worth $18 million? Plus three draft picks? For three years instead of four for Gardener? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kve Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 ...But I regarded Gardener last year as a one-man DL who made the entire defense better.... Absolutely true, However the sad fact is that the Redskins needed so many upgrades all over the place that Gardner, at his asking price, with his history, was too expensive. I bet George and SS wish he was here though!! kve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlanta Skins Fan Posted October 17, 2003 Author Share Posted October 17, 2003 Originally posted by gridironmike 4 for 1, takethe four. Actually it's an even trade in terms of number of players when you factor the draft picks. On the Gardener side, you get Gardener plus #4, #5, #7 picks. Those could have been valuable. McCants, for example, was a #5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Quoth ASF:Sure I do. It's an argument that Daryl's making it hard for me to make, because of the injury and the stupidity involved. Bingo. That's all I'm sayin'. I was never comfortable that we could count on production even comparable to what we got in the games he played in last year, much less count on improvement or any meaningful integration into the team over the next few years. Mercurial. Injury prone. Playing for a contract. Apparent borderline head case. Guess I just like my risk taking a little bit less, well ... risky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidPennSkin Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Originally posted by Om Clarification noted. Doesn't change my opinion on Gardener, though. The man's a walking train wreck waiting to happen. So far, it's just happened in little installments, interspersed with some nice moment on the field. Didn't believe he was a good risk back when we were discussing whether to try to resign him or not, don't believe it was a mistake now that we didn't. Looks like Gardener may need a year to recover from his injury. Article Published: Friday, October 17, 2003 broncos notes Gardener's new date for full recovery, impact: 'Next year' By Adam Schefter Denver Post Sports Writer Those waiting for Daryl Gardener to explode into enemy backfields, to dominate the way he did last season, to be the player the Broncos expected to be acquiring for a $5 million signing bonus, should employ the Chicago Cubs' seemingly eternal motto. Wait until next year. Asked when the Broncos could expect to see the player they thought they were getting last March, Gardener said, simply, "Next year." "I'm striving and I'm shooting for this year," he said. "But to be 100 percent in terms of using my hand, it's next year. Because it's a physical game and you use your hands a lot. Being that my right hand is not the same as my left, it's going to be tough. "There are going to be a lot of things I'll be able to accomplish this year. But to be the Daryl Gardener that Mike Shanahan saw when he signed me here, and what everybody liked on the field, it's going to take a year." Any team official or Broncos fan disappointed with the delay should consider a certain bit of medical information. When New York City-based Dr. Charles Melone examined Gardener's wrist, which suffered torn ligaments when the veteran defensive tackle threw a punch in self defense in an early-morning fight in the parking lot of an Aurora pancake house, he delivered his own painful blow. Melone recommended Gardener sit out this season and start aiming for the next, after he rehabbed his wrist for six months, minimum. Melone declined comment Thursday. Gardener ignored Melone's recommendation and returned to the field Sunday. He was credited with two tackles during Denver's 17-14 win over Pittsburgh. But Gardener speaks with far less bravado than he did earlier in the season, when he predicted he would be back for Denver's regular-season opener at Cincinnati. "They never told me I was going to be full strength during the season," Gardener admitted Thursday. "They never even said that I would be 50 percent. They just said I would be able to play. Going off that, I'm trying to beat the odds. "But I do believe if the situation presents itself and I had to get thrown out there, you'll be surprised with how I perform with one arm. I think I can be thrown in the position, but right now Mike Shanahan doesn't feel like I have to be in that situation." Not with other defensive tackles such as Monsanto Pope, Darius Holland and Mario Fatafehi filling the role the Broncos thought Gardener would. But Denver would like Gardener to elevate his play and monitors him in the hopes he will. So far, he hasn't. Defensive coordinator Larry Coyer said he could tell a difference between the Gardener he studied on videotape last offseason and the one he has coached this season. "You see that he won't use that hand - not consistently," Coyer said. "But he's better than he was. He's improving. I'm sorry to hear him say (he will not be back to full strength this year), but a man's got to heal. We're working hard to help him with that situation. "But there also comes a point in time when your drive to play has to take over. You only get so many chances to play football. I think Daryl will get to that point. I think he'll get to the point where he says, 'I just have to go."' The point Gardener is at is one of frustration. During the past few weeks he has returned to practice and during his Denver debut Sunday, Gardener experienced a trio of elements he never has encountered during his eight-year career. He never played scout team during practice. He never has been a backup. And he never has stood along his team's sideline, wondering when he would be inserted into the game. "That has never happened to me - never," Gardener said. "So it was a humbling experience. When I was brought here, I was brought here for the fact that I'm going to be playing. Being that I've had a setback like this, going out there with one hand is tough. It's tough. But you have to deal with it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 the unmentioned third option would have been the best one: let Gardener and his troubled back go and then invest dollars in the draft to acquire some younger talent and speed for the DL I think one of the fallacies of the Skins FO has been the idea that with what they feel is a superior set of linebackers that we can 'make do' with lesser lights up front. Everyone keeps mentioning the Ravens and their linebackers leading the defense, but one forgets that McCrary had 15 sacks one year and Sam Adams was a pro bowl starter at DT. We just don't have that kind of prime talent on the club right now on the DL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen-like Todd Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 ASF, while he signed for a 5 million dollar bonus with Denver, he wanted much, much, more in guaranteed money over the first 3 years of his contract with us. ..edit.... hmmm it wasnt all guaranteed, but he wanted a LOT of money up front in the first two to three years of the contract in terms of salary. And to answer your question, no, I would not have kept Gardener. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Originally posted by bulldog the unmentioned third option would have been the best one: let Gardener and his troubled back go and then invest dollars in the draft to acquire some younger talent and speed for the DL I think one of the fallacies of the Skins FO has been the idea that with what they feel is a superior set of linebackers that we can 'make do' with lesser lights up front. Everyone keeps mentioning the Ravens and their linebackers leading the defense, but one forgets that McCrary had 15 sacks one year and Sam Adams was a pro bowl starter at DT. We just don't have that kind of prime talent on the club right now on the DL. Bingo! Thats why Ive said that if the FO finally decides to draft a good set of D lineman next year, then the defense will shine. Right now the lineman arent good enough to help out the LB's As for Gardener, he's a giant mental case with a bad neck. I would love to be able to use him till he broke and then after he brakes not have to eat salary cap for him. But in the real world thats not possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Seems to me that, were it not for also pursuing needed fixes/upgrades at WR, RB, OG, S and KR, the team would have done just that, bulldog. We've all said it all along, the team simply could NOT do everything in one offseason. Nobody doubts that the DL has to now be Priority One, including, I'm quite sure, the front office. Would have been nice to find a stud or two to plug in this year, no doubt. But I think it's unfair to the team to forget the notion that several other need areas WERE shored up impressively. This was never gonna be a likely Super Bowl contender THIS year, we knew that going in. That's why I'm not too concerned about the DL in general in the big picture. I'm comfortable that we're going to focusing on that big time come February, and by the time the 2004 season rolls around, we'll be having to look around for NEW things to kvetch about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Could'a, Would'a, Should'a Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Gardner has had allot of problems, when he was with the Dolphins he was seen as a cancer by Wannstedt (sp?) but when he was in the 3 point on the line there is no doubting his ability. I'll always remember 1 play he made against the Cowboys at TG, where he was being double teamed, the boys sent 250lbs Hambrick up the gut between the two tackles, Gardner while being double teamed lent out his left arm & managed to stop Hambrick dead in his tracks with 1 arm! his other arm fending off 2 blockers, i'll always remember that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Well, firstly, we didn't get "outbid' for Gardner's services by Denver. We made him and offer, we asked him to address the issue of his bad back in his contract by making the back end of the deal contingent on his back being reasonably healthy over the next 4 years. He refused. So, we withdrew the offer. THEN he went and negotiated with Denver. As it is, Noble's career may be over, and that is something NO one could have predicted. However, while no one can see the future, one can be reasonably sure that Daryl Gardener's bad back will give him trouble over the next four years. The odds are high. Remember, his back has already had 2 surgeries on it, and he needed all kinds of cortizone shots to get in playing shape last year. Also, when it comes to Noble, it's not like the FO planned on having to go after him from the outset,, Gardener WAS in their plans, and he was the first in house free agent they negotiated with last offseason as I recall. As it is, I cannot blame them in any way for allowing Gardener to walk for the reasons they did. it was a smart move. There's a reason why guys as talented as Gardener bounce from team to team. Next, I really don't think the DL is doing all THAT bad. Granted they REALLY need help getting a pass rush.. a blind man can see that they can't get to the QB. But vs the run they've been solid. Our no name DTs Haley and Holsey have been strong, and their play should be commended. We have no speed coming from the end unless Upshaw is in. He DOES have the ability to get to the QB, but you stand an even chance he's going to cost you 15 yards at any second. If he could get his fouls under control, he's a force,,,,, (AND<<<< i thought that call on him last week vs Johnson was CHEESY).. Zellner has gotten to the QB as well, and he's gotten a good push from the DT position, too. I really would like to see them use Zellner and Upshaw as the ends on passing downs much more often, or bring in Jackson and move Zellner into the middle with Wynn. Either way, Gardner walking was a smart move, even if we are slightly weaker as a result. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 It's pretty simple really. The Defense won't work unless it's strong up front. The Offense won't work unless it's strong up front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Symbol Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 You always take the more for the less. Yes right now we need at least one DT that can put more pressure on the QB, but what we got was putting more pieces of the team together. Take the 4 over the one each and every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishtw Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 D. Gardner's presence will be missed. He was a risk when we took him last year becuase of his back, but we didn't pay him a 5 million dollar SB either. I wasn't happy to see him leave but I found it very hard to justify that type of money for the extreme amount of risk involved. Turns out that his fight in Denver really makes this a non-issue though. Noble is in the same boat but who would have thunk it? As far as the other three, only time will tell. But so far if they were to try to justify 18 million on their preformances so far this year it would make out to be a long day. None of them have done much to impress me much thus far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 I say avoid headcase players in their contract year who only seduce skinsfans with "potential." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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