D&T.com: McDonalds’ suggested budget for employees shows just how impossible it is to get by on minimum wage

[sjinhan]

You have to have people working those low wage jobs. Yes, many of them do transition to better jobs. But you are ignoring that there is a transition period and during that period if you are barely making enough to get by (and the budget from 2 jobs, not 1, but 2, shows even that is becoming near impossible) then that transition becomes more and more difficult to the point of near infeasibility and that really shouldn't be the case. A low wage worker should at least be ok enough to have a reasonable opportunity to look for, apply, and interview for a better job. 

 

Nobody is saying one should expect the world to change for them. What people are saying is while those people are earning low wages, that 1 full time job or 2 jobs should be enough to live off of reasonably. Raising the minimum wage to $10 isn't bending over backwards. 

 

A lot of people have no other choice than minimum wage as a starting point for their working career. They should be making enough full time or 2 jobs to where upward mobility is possible, but right now that is becoming less and less possible because the bottom line hasn't raised proportionally with the top line and general price raises in consumer goods. A lot of people's perspectives need to change in that regard also because many seem to view $10/hr as a lot for minimum wage/working at McDs, etc. and really these days it no longer is. 

 

 

Perhaps some of the disagreement between the two sides is the definition of "reasonable" living.  For me when I see minimum wage, it means that it is enough for you to have "minimal" living not a reasonable living. 

 

As it was the case with my family that did reach the "American Dream" as a poor immigrant family to upper middle income family in the USA, the upward mobility does not have to happen over a single generation and when it does, it usually requires some serious work and some really really miserable years.  I tend to tell some of the new immigrant families that come over without much that it will take generally 7-8 years of hard work for them to get settled.  Now that settled doesn't mean that you will be rich but just to be settled and established enough to start living a normal (reasonable) life...

 

When my family came over to the USA we didnt have much so my father worked two jobs full time (~80 hr/week), my mother worked full time (~60 hrs/week) and when my sister and I was at legal working age we did some part time work here and there.  I dont want to get into details here but we all made sacrifices to have an "opportunity" for upward mobility.  Lucky for us it all worked out and my parents are doing really well now (living in an 5 acre lot in Vienna, driving nice cars) and I am also doing very well.  However the key is thing is that you have to make sacrifices to have an "opportunity" for upward mobility and even at that point it is not guarrenteed that things will work out.  I know many other immigrant families that worked as hard (or possibly  harder) as our family did but it just did not work out for them.

 

The fundamental problem I have with the arguement that minimum wage should be raised to give people "reasonable" living or opportunities is that theses opportunities are ALREADY there if you are willing to make some tough choices and sacrifices.  And Yes, these choices will more than likely to require you to work more than 40 hr/week (or even 60 hrs/week) when you are starting from the minimum wage level like my family and I did.

[elkabong82]

The budget in the OP clearly shows that even if someone works TWO of those jobs, the opportunities really aren't there (or at least not sufficiently). You can't really realistically get by on the budget they propose (which requires 74 hours) even with a bunch of sacrifices. THAT is the problem, and the point of the article.

[SteveFromYellowstone]

I think a lot of people need this put into perspective. Minimum wage now is absolute crap compared to what its been about any time in the last 60 years. This issue is of particular importance to me because I'm a 21 year old living at home going to college who would love nothing more than to move out and be self sufficient, but it's absolutely impossible for me to do that in southern maryland on $8 an hour. It really angers me to see some people claim how it is so easy and they did it when they were young because it's an absolutely 100% different situation.

 

Please read this article

http://finances.msn.com/saving-money-advice/6952105

In 1950, you could work a week and a half and have your rent paid on minimum wage.

In 1970 it was more than possible to live on minimum wage and pay your own rent. It was pretty feasible up until the reagan era and the 90s.

 

The way I claim my taxes I take more home per week and get a crappy tax return at the end of the year, and I STILL only take home a little less than $1200 a month at $8 an hour and 40 hours a week. Please tell me how it is possible to live in this area on your own at less than $1200 a month while going to school and working 40 hours a week. This is above minimum wage mind you. I'd love to know all these "minimum wage" relatives people are posting about that make $2200, $1800, etc.

The average rent in my area http://average-rent.findthedata.org/d/a/Maryland (20646) for a 1 bedroom is $1090 a month. How am I supposed to afford that? It really hits a nerve with me when people try to say I'm lazy because they did it "back in my day".

 

My aunt has a smooth 100k+ a year job at the DoE with just a high school education. That's impossible for me to do now, I have to try to afford college tuition that has DOUBLED in cost since 2000. All I can say is that some people should be glad they were born before the early 90s because it's not that easy to make it own your own now days no matter how much you'd like to believe it is.

[8181]

Let me try the budget:

 

Cash

$1800 a month (60 hours, going off of Steve's take home pay of $1200 from working 40 hours a week)

 

Expenses

$500 rent - http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/roo/3926939649.html

$200 groceries - (This is how much I pay in groceries per month, single pack lunch everyday.)

$100 utilities - (This is how much I paid for electricity and gas and water a month when I lived in a 1BR in Fairfax, VA)

$112 car payment - http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/cto/3947531868.html (at 10% interest over 4 years)

$88 liability insurance - (I made this number up, I paid $90 a month for full comprehensive insurance)

$200 gas budget - (I made this number up, tell me if there's something more accurate)

 

TOTAL EXPENSES: $1200

 

That leaves a solid $600 a month to save or spend as you see fit. 

 

Let me know if I missed anything.

[sjinhan]

The budget in the OP clearly shows that even if someone works TWO of those jobs, the opportunities really aren't there (or at least not sufficiently). You can't really realistically get by on the budget they propose (which requires 74 hours) even with a bunch of sacrifices. THAT is the problem, and the point of the article.

 

 

Well I tried not to get into the budgetting details of that article but poster 8181 did.. and I am 100% with him on that.   

[techboy]

The budget in the OP clearly shows that even if someone works TWO of those jobs, the opportunities really aren't there (or at least not sufficiently).

 

Putting aside the arguments for and against raising the minimum wage for a moment, the only thing that budget shows is that somebody at McDonald's Corporate has NO IDEA how to make a budget. It's laughable.

800 dollars for "monthly spending money"? What the heck is that? Did the guy assigned to do this have to go to lunch so he just decided to punt and throw anything he didn't cover yet into a catch-all? A good budget accounts for ALL predictable spending, specifically. Emergencies come out of the emergency fund (funded by the $100 a month budgeted "savings", perhaps), and fun goes in a category like "entertainment", which shouldn't be anything CLOSE to $800 a month for someone on minimum wage. Take a walk. Go to the library. Join a club with low or zero admission fees. Get an antenna for the TV and watch the boatloads of free programming.

100 dollars for "cable/phone"? For TV, get an antenna. For phone, use a prepaid cell. Someone on minimum wage shouldn't have an IPhone plan. Personally, I pay about 7 dollars a month for my cell, but I rarely use it. As a full time phone/internet replacement useful for job (and entertainment, for that matter), one can STILL get a 30 dollar a month prepaid plan from TMobile with 100 minutes a month and unlimited internet. If more than 100 minutes is needed, there are ways to call over wifi and the internet for free.

On the other end, ZERO dollars for heat? Seriously?

Really, someone on minimum wage should have a roommate and be renting, and in situations like that, there should be ONE listing for "utilities", and it shouldn't be 0.

Insurance seems low too, especially since minimum wage workers are likely to be young and pay more for car insurance.

The whole thing's a joke, and useless for discussion/demonstration.

[elkabong82]

Let me try the budget:

 

Cash

$1800 a month (60 hours, going off of Steve's take home pay of $1200 from working 40 hours a week)

 

Expenses

$500 rent - http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/roo/3926939649.html

$200 groceries - (This is how much I pay in groceries per month, single pack lunch everyday.)

$100 utilities - (This is how much I paid for electricity and gas and water a month when I lived in a 1BR in Fairfax, VA)

$112 car payment - http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/cto/3947531868.html (at 10% interest over 4 years)

$88 liability insurance - (I made this number up, I paid $90 a month for full comprehensive insurance)

$200 gas budget - (I made this number up, tell me if there's something more accurate)

 

TOTAL EXPENSES: $1200

 

That leaves a solid $600 a month to save or spend as you see fit. 

 

Let me know if I missed anything.

 

$7.25 x 60 hrs x 4 weeks = $1740/mo. Let's say 15% is taxed, so $1480/mo. That allows for your budget, but you didn't factor in health care, or "other" expenses which always pop up such as doctor/dentist visits, home supplies for cleaning maintenance, car maintenance costs (which are going to be more owning a 12 year old car), clothing, etc. $100 utilities is only going to cover one of you utilities. If you are only considering a 1 BR, then you have to look at the norm which is a lot higher than $500 in NoVA. What happens when the people you are renting from decide to move or sell? Expecting $500/mo rent for your own place is not reasonable in this area. You also have to have a phone for emergency purposes at the very least, but also for new employers to contact you and talk with you if you want to improve your job. So there is another $50/mo.

 

Even w/ $500/mo, and let's say just $50 extra in utilities, $50 phone, and with Obamacare or work $150/mo health insurance that is $1450 a month, NOT including the other expenditures that pop up in a given time. So you get $30 left over to save. You'll never get to go out to have fun, or watch tv, or watch movies at home since neither was in the budget. If they are then you have no savings and will owe, especially if/when that "other" category flares up, such as if/when that 12 year old car breaks down. Hope it isn't a year where you need emissions inspection or a bunch of stuff pops up on safety inspection. Hope you don't ever plan on improving your education or getting a certification to improve your job. No time or money for it.

 

And you have all that to worry about, all that to deal with, working 60 hours a week! That is ridiculous and shouldn't be acceptable for ANY job at 60 hours per week.

 

If you made even $9/hr though, a $1.75 increase of the min wage, the budget goes up to $1835/mo.

 

At $10/hr working 40 hour weeks you get $1360/mo after tax. At 60 hours you get $2040/mo. That is enough to allow upward mobility. 

 

For a small business, let's say 5 full time employees, 40 hours each week. Pays $10 now instead of $7.25. So pays $2.75/hr more, that is $110 extra per employee, per week. 

[SteveFromYellowstone]

Let me try the budget:

 

Cash

$1800 a month (60 hours, going off of Steve's take home pay of $1200 from working 40 hours a week)

 

Expenses

$500 rent - http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/roo/3926939649.html

$200 groceries - (This is how much I pay in groceries per month, single pack lunch everyday.)

$100 utilities - (This is how much I paid for electricity and gas and water a month when I lived in a 1BR in Fairfax, VA)

$112 car payment - http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/cto/3947531868.html (at 10% interest over 4 years)

$88 liability insurance - (I made this number up, I paid $90 a month for full comprehensive insurance)

$200 gas budget - (I made this number up, tell me if there's something more accurate)

 

TOTAL EXPENSES: $1200

 

That leaves a solid $600 a month to save or spend as you see fit. 

 

Let me know if I missed anything.

I love how you just add it up to 60 hours a week like it's no big deal. This is while going to school while I'm not working. I can't just decide to work 60 hours a week even if I wanted to. $500 a month for rent is far from the norm and even if it was that low, it's ridiculously hard to live on $700 a month to pay for everything that isn't rent. I have to go to school if I want to make any kind of decent living in the future. It isn't possible to get a career on a high school diploma anymore.

 

You can sit here and twist the numbers to make it fit whatever point you are trying to make, but it doesn't change the fact that it is a lot harder for a young person to live now days than it was for the previous generations. I was talking to my father (65 years old) and his friend Andy (early 60s) about what it was like for them when they first got on their own. When Andy bought his first house he was making 5k a year while his house cost 10k. Say I'm lucky enough to make 50k in a few years, a decent house is going to cost anywhere from 5 to 6 times my income. Inflation on just about EVERYTHING has outpaced the growth of wages and it just plain sucks. It's not like I want to be living at home, but while I'm going to school it's necessary

[Springfield]

Some make it sound like you'll actually be able to get 60 hours at a min wage job. Most of these places, so cheap to pay their workers the bare minimum, will also ensure that their workers don't get over 30-40 hours.

Also, I think that some vastly underrate the cost of housing in the DC area while simultaneously assuming that finding a roommate is a piece of cake.

None of these things are nearly as easy as it sounds on a message board.

[chipwhich]

8181 gets the vote for the worst post in the thread.  The numbers don't make sense.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Yellowstone, if you are in school and making $8 per hour, why are you even bothering to look at one-bedroom apartments? I shared a place with four other guys (4 BR/2.5 BA) during my senior year of college. I had roommates until I got married, and by that time I had been making $50-70K for five or six years. Not only will your rent/mortgage be significantly lower, but so will your utilities.

Personally, I believe that part of the problem is that some people believe that working a job and being a certain age entitles them to certain things. Some people don't distinguish between what they need and what they want.

[HeluCopter29]

Forget about living on minimum wage for a second.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/13/minimum-wage-productivity_n_2680639.html

 

"The minimum wage should have reached $21.72 in 2012 if it kept up with increases in worker productivity, according to a March study by the Center for Economic and Policy Research"

 

I don't think anyone here is going to advocate for a minimum wage higher than the cost of essentials (healthcare, food, shelter, etc) but it holds up that workers have kept their end of the bargain.  So yeah, they're owed a little better.  One in six people are still food in secure folks.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Forget about living on minimum wage for a second.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/13/minimum-wage-productivity_n_2680639.html

 

"The minimum wage should have reached $21.72 in 2012 if it kept up with increases in worker productivity, according to a March study by the Center for Economic and Policy Research"

 

I don't think anyone here is going to advocate for a minimum wage higher than the cost of essentials (healthcare, food, shelter, etc) but it holds up that workers have kept their end of the bargain.  So yeah, they're owed a little better.  One in six people are still food in secure folks.

This screams "technology and innovation" to me. The fact that, for example, everyone pays with debit cards instead of cash certainly reduces the time it takes cashiers can move customers through lines. If you move to an office setting, the tasks people were doing manually are being automated with smarter systems.

[HeluCopter29]

Forget about living on minimum wage for a second.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/13/minimum-wage-productivity_n_2680639.html

 

"The minimum wage should have reached $21.72 in 2012 if it kept up with increases in worker productivity, according to a March study by the Center for Economic and Policy Research"

 

I don't think anyone here is going to advocate for a minimum wage higher than the cost of essentials (healthcare, food, shelter, etc) but it holds up that workers have kept their end of the bargain.  So yeah, they're owed a little better.  One in six people are still food in secure folks.

This screams "technology and innovation" to me. The fact that, for example, everyone pays with debit cards instead of cash certainly reduces the time it takes cashiers can move customers through lines. If you move to an office setting, the tasks people were doing manually are being automated with smarter systems.

 

But if we follow what you just said to it's logical conclusion the only way to get ahead in America is to develop something that will drastically increase productivity.  Which very rarely happens.

 

Unless of course, you still think the "American Dream" is real.

[8181]

Let me preface that my budget was for regular expenses.  I did miss phone (and Internet).  Add $100 for that.  If you want to argue the other numbers, give more realistic ones.  I'm not really sure how $100 a month covers only one utility since I have my own utility bills in hand. If it's getting that bad, maybe they should cut out the AC, which is also a luxury (I KNOW plenty of us grew up in homes without it).  Now onwards:

 

1. NOVA is too expensive. 

 

2. Finding a roommate is too hard.

 

3. Working 60 hours a week is too hard.

 

4. Without spending money, you can't have fun.

 

WHINE, WINE, WHINE.

 

1. First of all:  http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/search/roo?query=&zoomToPosting=&srchType=A&minAsk=&maxAsk=500 , Second of all, no one is forcing you to live in NOVA.  "I can't leave NOVA!  Because...." Oh my god, here come more excuses.

 

2. Finding a roommate is too hard?  WTF??? 

 

3. Doctors, investment bankers, consultants, salespeople, police officers, construction workers, retail managers, small business owners all have been known to work at least 60 hours a week regularly.  I don't know why everyone across the wage spectrum can work past 40 hours but for some reason we have to assume those at the bottom shouldn't.

 

4. I feel sorry for people who don't know how to relax or have fun without spending money.  At the very least, you have Youtube and Wikipedia and ExtremeSkins now that we've included Internet into the budget.  Need real social interaction?  Go to the local park and join some pickup games.  Oh, you don't like to play sports?  Go volunteer.  Oh you don't... Do the excuses ever stop.

 

I know a man who was uneducated and worked at Long John Silvers for minimum wage when he decided he wanted to make something more of himself.  He joined the Army (oh ****, here comes more whiny excuses as why this is not an option).

 

This man returned from the Army and worked in data entry for 10 years working 60 hours a week while taking night school for computer programming at Stafford.  He married a woman awho worked at McDonalds 40 hours a week.  Together they had and raised two children.  They lived in a 1BR apartment, drove a Hyundai until it burst into flames and then they bought a Corolla.  They had fancy steak dinners at the Sizzler.  They saved up enough to eventually buy a $200,000 townhome.  Eventually, this man got a job with the federal government and lives a decidedly middle class life. 

 

Before you ****ing whine some more about how a $200,000 townhome isn't realistic, the reason my parents moved to Arlington, VA (right across Key Bridge where it now costs $2500+ a month in the same apartment I used to live as a child) is because back then it was a low income neighborhood that they could afford to live in.  They weren't living in an apartment or buying a $200,000 townhome in some yuppy neighborhood with the majority of the residents being educated white Americans that we apparently are entitled to.

 

There is no free lunch.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I don't agree that the only way to get ahead in this country is to invent or develop something innovative. I'm not sure why you believe that either. I think it takes varying degrees of intelligence, opportunity, and determination...just as it always has.

I think some people believe that no hard-working Americans failed from previous generations. There seems to be this romanticized notion that everyone who worked in a mill socked away their wages until finally buying a house with a picket fence. Plenty people from past generations who were born into poverty died that way. Just as plenty of people now are able to work their way up.

[Springfield]

Good luck finding a job that will give you 60 hours a week. Even better, good luck finding two jobs that will give you 60 based on the schedule of your first job.

Be prepared to work through the night...

[techboy]

"The minimum wage should have reached $21.72 in 2012 if it kept up with increases in worker productivity, according to a March study by the Center for Economic and Policy Research"

From that article:

The minimum wage should have reached $21.72 an hour in 2012 if it kept up with increases in worker productivity, according to a March study by the Center for Economic and Policy Research. While advancements in technology have increased the amount of goods and services that can be produced in a set amount of time, wages have remained relatively flat, the study points out.

Even if the minimum wage kept up with inflation since it peaked in real value in the late 1960s, low-wage workers should be earning a minimum of $10.52 an hour, according to the study.

The first paragraph (and the headline) implies the rather silly argument that minimum wage should keep up with productivity, just because they did track each other for a while. As the article itself notes, though, recent increases in productivity are many times due to "advances in technology".

As an easy example, when I went to the grocery store 15 years ago, there were perhaps 6 checkout clerks helping people, to keep lines short and things moving. Now, though, they have four self-checkouts, with one clerk kind of keeping an eye on things, and perhaps 2 regular lines. Three people do the same amount of work it used to take 6. 100% increase in productivity.

It'd be silly, though, to argue that this means that grocery store clerks should have had their pay increased by 100% the day the new self-checkouts were installed. That increase in productivity wasn't due to any kind of skill or value added by the employee, so why should pay go up?

It'd be pretty hard to convince me that a minimum wage employee at McDonald's is adding $22 per hour of value to his store, or even that said employee is much more productive than his counterpart 40 years ago, at least as a function of his own abilities.

The second paragraph, I think, makes a much more reasonable case. As I linked to a story about earlier, the minimum wage today is not worth as much in real terms as it was 40 years ago, and that is a valid concern, because assuming that it was set properly then to reflect whatever it is we want out of it, it's certainly fallen behind now. It can't buy what it once did. Of course, it makes even more sense to just assess it independently now, since the past is just that, but there's some merit there.

I actually suspect the organization that put this out knows it, too, and is using the "door in the face" sales technique (kind of the opposite of "foot in the door"), where you ask for something outrageous, so that your follow-up seems reasonable by comparison. "Workers deserve $22 an hour! No? How about $10?"

[8181]

Good luck finding a job that will give you 60 hours a week. Even better, good luck finding two jobs that will give you 60 based on the schedule of your first job.

Be prepared to work through the night...

 

So now working through the night is hands off.  I guess once again, professions all across the board from doctors to police officers work through the night, but for some reason the lower end of the income scale is exempt.

 

What else, weekends?  Early mornings?  Late evenings?

 

If a person is not willing to make the sacrifices, then he doesn't deserve anything more than he has.

[GoSkins0721]

Good luck finding a job that will give you 60 hours a week. Even better, good luck finding two jobs that will give you 60 based on the schedule of your first job.

Be prepared to work through the night...

 

So now working through the night is hands off.  I guess once again, professions all across the board from doctors to police officers work through the night, but for some reason the lower end of the income scale is exempt.

 

What else, weekends?  Early mornings?  Late evenings?

 

If a person is not willing to make the sacrifices, then he doesn't deserve anything more than he has.

 

Spot on. 

 

I just don't get it. I really don't.

 

Years ago (25+) I shared an office with another guy. He was older than me by about 10 years, was married and had 3 kids. He didn't like the public schools his kids were attending. He decided to get a morning paper route so he could pay to send his kids to private school. So this guy got up every morning at 3am to deliver papers and then came to his full-time job to work 730am to 5pm. He did that for over 7 years. Sure, he took vacations. But he delivered papers everyday so he could get things for his family that his salary (and his wife's) couldn't buy them.

 

Not happy with your salary? Do something about it besides ****ing, moaning and complaining.

[elkabong82]

 

Good luck finding a job that will give you 60 hours a week. Even better, good luck finding two jobs that will give you 60 based on the schedule of your first job.

Be prepared to work through the night...

 

So now working through the night is hands off.  I guess once again, professions all across the board from doctors to police officers work through the night, but for some reason the lower end of the income scale is exempt.

 

What else, weekends?  Early mornings?  Late evenings?

 

If a person is not willing to make the sacrifices, then he doesn't deserve anything more than he has.

 

Spot on. 

 

I just don't get it. I really don't.

 

Years ago (25+) I shared an office with another guy. He was older than me by about 10 years, was married and had 3 kids. He didn't like the public schools his kids were attending. He decided to get a morning paper route so he could pay to send his kids to private school. So this guy got up every morning at 3am to deliver papers and then came to his full-time job to work 730am to 5pm. He did that for over 7 years. Sure, he took vacations. But he delivered papers everyday so he could get things for his family that his salary (and his wife's) couldn't buy them.

 

Not happy with your salary? Do something about it besides ****ing, moaning and complaining.

 

I keep seeing these "back when" stories. They don't work today. Today a paper route in the AM isn't going to give you enough extra income for private school. Papers are almost out of business.

 

You and 8181 are arguing points that nobody is making. You both seem to operate under the assumption that hard work allows you to prosper and seem to strongly imply that you are only poor through laziness.

 

Perhaps you two should re-read the thread. Nobody is saying that sacrifices shouldn't be made working a minimum wage job. But, right now, minimum wage is not high enough for a person to sustain themselves, and this has been shown through budgets. 8181 had to get 1 place that was way below average market rent and it was a shared living space and he had to buy a 12 year old car, and even then the budget didn't actually work when real wage numbers were put in and all expenses accounted for, and this is with 60 hours of work being put in.

 

Again, I don't care what the job is; if someone is putting in 60 hours a week then they should be able to have a liveable budget and right now that simply isn't the case. But, at a cost of $110 per week to the employer, a person can do just find for themselves at 60 hours/wk enough in fact to where extra education or certification becomes financially possible and there is still time in the week for classes.

 

As far as working night, I think the point was a lot of companies at low wage only give part time, so finding 2 and having the schedules work isn't easy. If you are working a day job, then working night as well and still having time to sleep isn't easy. Doctors, police, emergency workers get mandatory days off. They are on for 48 hours, off for 24-48.They work 60 hours a week and make well above minimum wage. Let's say you work at McD's, M-F, 6 hours a day from 8 am to 2 PM. Then you have a night job 6 hours, 5 days a week, from 10 PM to 4 AM. You can sleep in between jobs, better hope you can get weekend classes if you want better education for yourself. Oh, but after working a schedule like that, showing you are hard working and committed, your budget as shown, still doesn't work out at the current minimum wage. THAT is the problem. Nobody is saying you shouldn't work 60 hours, nobody. What's being said is that with the current minimum wage even working 60 hours doesn't net enough cash and that is ridiculous especially when the cost to the employer of raising minimum wage to a good level is not unreasonable.

 

"Do something about it besides ****ing and moaning" is exactly my point about you and 8181 making assumptions of laziness and not understanding, at all, that the current low wages make "doing something about it" near impossible, hence 8181 couldn't come up with a reasonable budget at 60 hours/wk. Perhaps when people such as yourselves realize laziness has nothing to do with it when talking about someone working 60 hours/wk, then maybe there will be a large enough voice to raise the bottom level up to a reasonable level.

[HeluCopter29]

 

Good luck finding a job that will give you 60 hours a week. Even better, good luck finding two jobs that will give you 60 based on the schedule of your first job.

Be prepared to work through the night...

 

So now working through the night is hands off.  I guess once again, professions all across the board from doctors to police officers work through the night, but for some reason the lower end of the income scale is exempt.

 

What else, weekends?  Early mornings?  Late evenings?

 

If a person is not willing to make the sacrifices, then he doesn't deserve anything more than he has.

 

Spot on. 

 

I just don't get it. I really don't.

 

Years ago (25+) I shared an office with another guy. He was older than me by about 10 years, was married and had 3 kids. He didn't like the public schools his kids were attending. He decided to get a morning paper route so he could pay to send his kids to private school. So this guy got up every morning at 3am to deliver papers and then came to his full-time job to work 730am to 5pm. He did that for over 7 years. Sure, he took vacations. But he delivered papers everyday so he could get things for his family that his salary (and his wife's) couldn't buy them.

 

Not happy with your salary? Do something about it besides ****ing, moaning and complaining.

 

1. It's hard enough right now to get a singular job.  Do you really think getting someone to hire you for a second job is that easy?

 

2. I could ask my employer for a raise.  But someone else will fill my job instantly.  One of the harsh realities of high unemployment is that it makes things suck even more for the employed.

[endzone_dave]

Just got back from Kings Dominion.  For lunch, we all had hot dogs.  One of the people working the there only had one job: assemble the hot dogs.  That only involved putting the hot dog on the bun and at most adding chili, cheese, and onions.  That's it - and she was horrible at it.  For some reason it took forever.

 

I have no idea her perosnal situation, maybe she had five kids to feed for all I know.  But I can't in any way, no matter how much I'd like to see her have a better life, give her more than minimum wage.  There are just some jobs so easy a 4th grader could do it, and I can't see handing out $12 an hour for it.  Sorry.

[Springfield]

How much did you pay for that hot dog?

[8181]

elkabong82, you keep talking about "below average".  Simple math says that if you make below average money, you're not going to be able to afford average things.  Luckily, in America, being below average doesn't mean you live in ****ty conditions. 

 

What you're arguing is that even people who make below average wages are entitled to live without roommates and have a newer car and the freedom to sit on their ass and watch TV and the right to afford these things while living in one of the most expensive areas of the country.  You make it sound like driving a 12 year old car and living with a roommate is a living hell. 

 

Maybe we should champion an $80 per hour minimum wage in New York City so no one has to deal with living with a roommate and has the God-given right to live in a nice area of Manhattan.  Let's add it into the Bill of Rights that no one should be deprived of the right to own a car built within the last 5 years, because by God, a 2000 Honda Civic is UNCIVILIZED.

 

By the way, anyone who wants to **** and moan can join the military.  If doctors and lawyers can do it, so can people who work at McDonalds.