Jordan Davis, the next Trayvon Martin? Is FL law the problem?

[Tulane Skins Fan]

TSF,

 

The gun was in her car, which was in her garage. To me, that would be no different than going into your bedroom to get a bat or gun if there was an intruder. Is that pre-meditation then?

That said - I do see where there are holes (some big ones) that cause heartburn to her story (much more so than the location of the gun).

 

Again - the case details seem to change depending on where you read it from, but allegedly she stayed the night at that house - then after the husband and his kids returned the next day, everything was a-okay (despite the restraining order against him and the previous abuse). She even showed him pictures of their recently born child. 

 

Sometime during that day, they allegedly got into an argument & he allegedly forced her into a bathroom and then allegedly barred her originally from leaving. Once he cooled down, she was able to get free and went to the garage, got the gun, & fired a shot into the wall (she claims it wasn't at him), and that shot ricocheted into the ceiling. 

 

To me - that doesn't seem worthy of 20 years although it appears that the judges hands were tied based on flawed legislation (that even the original author of the legislation says wasn't designed to put someone like her behind bars for a minimum of 20 years).

 

As I said, the facts are so fuzzy in this case, but I think that's intentional bad reporting.  So, I agree with you there.

 

What you just described is premeditation though.  It has often been said that "premeditation can happen in the blink of an eye."  I don't see a difference between going to your bedroom or your car either.  They both invoke premeditation.

 

Basically, they got into an argument.  He didn't hit her or anything?  She wasn't satisifed and she decided to go get a gun and shoot it at him, not at him, whatever, in the same room as him.

 

I'm sorry, that sounds like attempted murder to me.  And it doesn't sound ANYTHING like self-defense.  And it doesn't sound anything like the Zimmerman story.

 

What people need to do to understand the Zimmerman verdict is to go listen to the tape of the victim screaming.  Then, whether you think its Zimmerman or Martin screaming JUST ASSUME that its Zimmerman for the purpose of this exercise.  So, you're assuming its Zimmerman... so for nearly a minute he's screaming at the top of his lungs for help and wailing out in pain.  And then he pulls his gun and shoots.

 

If you assume that that voice is Zimmerman, then it really sounds like self-defense.  And it sounds nothing like either of these "reverse Zimmerman cases."

[Tulane Skins Fan]

TSF...it is not unique to Florida,self defense once asserted at trial must be disproven or the evidence available be insufficient to support it as reasonable.

there is the probable standard level of proof that exists pre-trial that a defendant must meet to use it to avoid /dismiss charges,but no burden at a trial(except that the evidence supports it)

Ohio I think is the only oddity in that

 

states with a duty to flee only require that be demonstrated unreasonable

 

we do of course require a defense be presented even in cases where the defendant refuses to plea or help with the defense(which is a burden of the state)

 

add

http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/160/203/

 

Self-Defense is for Juries to Evaluate, Not for Judges to Exclude

 

That didn't address what I was talking about.

 

I am sure different states have different burdens though.

[twa]

 

TSF...it is not unique to Florida,self defense once asserted at trial must be disproven or the evidence available be insufficient to support it as reasonable.

there is the probable standard level of proof that exists pre-trial that a defendant must meet to use it to avoid /dismiss charges,but no burden at a trial(except that the evidence supports it)

Ohio I think is the only oddity in that

 

states with a duty to flee only require that be demonstrated unreasonable

 

we do of course require a defense be presented even in cases where the defendant refuses to plea or help with the defense(which is a burden of the state)

 

add

http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/160/203/

 

Self-Defense is for Juries to Evaluate, Not for Judges to Exclude

 

That didn't address what I was talking about.

 

I am sure different states have different burdens though.

they certainly do,though Ohio seems the heaviest

http://www.cantonrep.com/news/x586041913/Ohio-self-defense-laws-put-burden-of-proof-on-defendant

 

 

that was a very good example earlier with the screams in regards to weighing and reasonable doubt,hadn't heard it put quite that way

 

add

http://www.volokh.com/2013/07/14/burden-and-quantum-of-proof-on-self-defense/

http://www.volokh.com/2013/07/14/burden-and-quantum-of-proof-on-self-defense/

[The Sisko]

I think they should just cut to the chase and declare him innocent right now. Why waste money and everyone's time?

if the majority of the evidence supported that I would probably agree, especially since it also wastes the chance of a later conviction

 

The evidence is irrelevant. Besides, the results would probably be the same in any future trial anyway so why bother?

[Popeman38]

TSF,

The gun was in her car, which was in her garage. To me, that would be no different than going into your bedroom to get a bat or gun if there was an intruder. Is that pre-meditation then?

That said - I do see where there are holes (some big ones) that cause heartburn to her story (much more so than the location of the gun).

Again - the case details seem to change depending on where you read it from, but allegedly she stayed the night at that house - then after the husband and his kids returned the next day, everything was a-okay (despite the restraining order against him and the previous abuse). She even showed him pictures of their recently born child.

Sometime during that day, they allegedly got into an argument & he allegedly forced her into a bathroom and then allegedly barred her originally from leaving. Once he cooled down, she was able to get free and went to the garage, got the gun, & fired a shot into the wall (she claims it wasn't at him), and that shot ricocheted into the ceiling.

To me - that doesn't seem worthy of 20 years although it appears that the judges hands were tied based on flawed legislation (that even the original author of the legislation says wasn't designed to put someone like her behind bars for a minimum of 20 years).

20 years is ludicrous. However, 20 years is mandatory for using a firearm in the commission of a felony in Florida. So it's not like she was sentenced unfairly compared to other firearm offenses. GZ would have received 20 years if convicted of manslaughter.

He could have gotten 10-30 years for manslaughter.

Except he used a firearm, which carries a mandatory minimum of 20 years in FL. Or since he shot TM during a crime (if he had even convicted) it would have carried a 25 to life sentances mandatory.

[Bubble Screen]

TSF,

The gun was in her car, which was in her garage. To me, that would be no different than going into your bedroom to get a bat or gun if there was an intruder. Is that pre-meditation then?

That said - I do see where there are holes (some big ones) that cause heartburn to her story (much more so than the location of the gun).

Again - the case details seem to change depending on where you read it from, but allegedly she stayed the night at that house - then after the husband and his kids returned the next day, everything was a-okay (despite the restraining order against him and the previous abuse). She even showed him pictures of their recently born child.

Sometime during that day, they allegedly got into an argument & he allegedly forced her into a bathroom and then allegedly barred her originally from leaving. Once he cooled down, she was able to get free and went to the garage, got the gun, & fired a shot into the wall (she claims it wasn't at him), and that shot ricocheted into the ceiling.

To me - that doesn't seem worthy of 20 years although it appears that the judges hands were tied based on flawed legislation (that even the original author of the legislation says wasn't designed to put someone like her behind bars for a minimum of 20 years).

20 years is ludicrous. However, 20 years is mandatory for using a firearm in the commission of a felony in Florida. So it's not like she was sentenced unfairly compared to other firearm offenses. GZ would have received 20 years if convicted of manslaughter.

He could have gotten 10-30 years for manslaughter.

Except he used a firearm, which carries a mandatory minimum of 20 years in FL. Or since he shot TM during a crime (if he had even convicted) it would have carried a 25 to life sentances mandatory.

You could be right. I heard several different things. Also heard if the jury had convicted him of manslaughter, the number of years would have been at the judges' discretion. Which would have been scary for Zimmerman/the defense, because this judge seemed to have it out for West. I have little doubt she would have given him the max.

Speaking of the judge, did anyone notice her demeanor after the verdict was read? Her voice was cracking, and she seemed pretty upset. I don't think she saw that acquittal coming.

[skinsmarydu]

Saw an interview with Alexander's lawyer.  She went into the garage to leave, but when she realized she didn't have her keys & would have to go back into the house, decided protection from her abuser might be in order.  He tried to attack her again, so she fired in warning.  A hole in the wall does not equal a body.  Not even close.

[Kilmer17]

Saw an interview with Alexander's lawyer.  She went into the garage to leave, but when she realized she didn't have her keys & would have to go back into the house, decided protection from her abuser might be in order.  He tried to attack her again, so she fired in warning.  A hole in the wall does not equal a body.  Not even close.

It's certainly not close to similar to the TM shooting. 

 

I havent done alot of searching about this one, but Im pretty sure the biggest issue she had was coming back into the house with the gun.  I dont think her explanation was sufficient under FLA laws to apply self defense.

[twa]

I thought this was funny and relevant

 

Andrew Branca: “Well, I certainly agree with that, and I’d like to talk to that. But before we do , I’ve been listening to the show on hold while it’s been going on, and I hear a lot of discussion about how Florida has this crazy stand-your-ground law that creates these unique legal scenarios. The fact is Florida’s stand-your-ground law is quite common, 33 states are effectively SYG states and have very similar provisions.  In fact there is one state that not only lets you to stand your ground, it explicitly allows you to pursue your assailant if necessary for your safety.  And that state is California [where the station is located].

 

[GoSkins561]

I don't see how the two are similar??

 

This case seems pretty cut and dry, the white guy should have never said anything to the kids for having their music to loud and he could have walked away, the Zimmerman trial had to many assumptions in order to prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Gamebreaker]

I'm wondering how anyone could possibly think Dunn might be innocent of murder here. I know all of the evidence hasn't been reported, but shooting four rounds at a retreating vehicle is not self-defense in the slightest. 

[Bubble Screen]

I can't believe how many clueless people there are out there that are talking about the Zimmerman case: saw a headline today that said Stevie Wonder was going to boycott the state of FL. First of all, this case had nothing to do with the SYG law. And secondly, he hasn't been relevant in forever, so who really cares what this guy has to say?

I'm wondering how anyone could possibly think Dunn might be innocent of murder here. I know all of the evidence hasn't been reported, but shooting four rounds at a retreating vehicle is not self-defense in the slightest.

That's probably why this case hasnt gotten much notoriety. There's just no intrigue. Like you said, seems cut and dry.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

Its not really true that this has nothing to do with stand your ground.

 

Its true the non-requirement to retreat was not in play in the Zimmerman case, but the law in Florida changed the burden on all self-defense laws.  That's really the bigger issue.

 

I saw some criminal defense attorneys talking on TV saying exactly what I was thinking, "when I was in law school, stand your ground was called self-defense."  

 

"Stand your ground" is basically legislative self-defense laws, and that can be said to be a legal issue that was on display in the Zimmerman case.  Its in a grey area when you say "stand your ground" was or was not involved in the Zimmerman case.  It was by virtue of the fact that there is one self defense statute covering all of that.  

[twa]

TSF some of the confusion comes from many states(most western and southern) already had very limited duty to retreat (if at all) and less restriction on use of force before SYG

 

many East coast lawyers(and citizens) have been in culture shock

 

what burden did it change other than preventing charges w/o real probable cause?

[Bubble Screen]

There was no grey area. SYG wasn't applicable in the Zimmerman case. It was never even discussed in the trial. This was just self defense. Granted, that law does need some tweaking.

[twa]

I think it's a mistake to try and compare any cases where a person or persons of one race, shoot and kill a person or persons of another race with the Zimmerman case.

 

There is no broad conspiracy to hide or brush aside any of them despite what the racewhores of the world want us to think.

Agreed

 

for instance this case

http://rochester.ynn.com/content/top_stories/490926/jury-finds-roderick-scott-not-guilty/

 

 

despite the parents outrage over shooting a unarmed teen and lack of proof of a threat

 

each case is different,as is the evidence

[Larry]

I'm wondering how anyone could possibly think Dunn might be innocent of murder here. I know all of the evidence hasn't been reported, but shooting four rounds at a retreating vehicle is not self-defense in the slightest.

But, can the government prove that the SUV wasn't backing up when he put four rounds into it's back?

[No_Pressure]

It's more or less the same story all over again: a white man shooting a black teenager dead in Florida in a tragic dispute that perhaps could have been avoided. Yet, why is Jacksonville trial of Michael Dunn and Jordan Davis not receiving the same amount of media attention or criticism as the George Zimmerman vs. Trayvon Martin case?

 

 

GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: WHITE MAN, APPARENTLY

[GoSkins561]

I'm wondering how anyone could possibly think Dunn might be innocent of murder here. I know all of the evidence hasn't been reported, but shooting four rounds at a retreating vehicle is not self-defense in the slightest.

But, can the government prove that the SUV wasn't backing up when he put four rounds into it's back?

 

Dunn said the car was fleeing when he shot it 4 more times in the back.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

TSF some of the confusion comes from many states(most western and southern) already had very limited duty to retreat (if at all) and less restriction on use of force before SYG

 

many East coast lawyers(and citizens) have been in culture shock

 

what burden did it change other than preventing charges w/o real probable cause?

 

That's an absolutely ridiculous post, and its insulting.

There was no grey area. SYG wasn't applicable in the Zimmerman case. It was never even discussed in the trial. This was just self defense. Granted, that law does need some tweaking.

 

There is no law called "the stand your ground law."  There is the self defense law, which incorporates the concept of stand your ground.  

 

Lawyers don't think of them as really separate because for legal purposes its redundant.  

[twa]

TSF some of the confusion comes from many states(most western and southern) already had very limited duty to retreat (if at all) and less restriction on use of force before SYG

 

many East coast lawyers(and citizens) have been in culture shock

 

what burden did it change other than preventing charges w/o real probable cause?

 

That's an absolutely ridiculous post, and its insulting.

Yet the truth.

 

The creeping of duty to retreat into prosecutors use is the major reason so many states have clearly defined SYG in use of force law

 

the burden has not changed except in that manner

[NoCalMike]

Would like to know more details about this case, and what the witnesses have to say.   The one mistake the 71 year old made might have been brandishing his weapon in the first place since I think that itself is a crime? maybe?

 

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/crime/role-reversal-judge-rejects-71-year-old-black-man-trevor-dooley-s-stand-your-ground

[NoCalMike]

It's more or less the same story all over again: a white man shooting a black teenager dead in Florida in a tragic dispute that perhaps could have been avoided. Yet, why is Jacksonville trial of Michael Dunn and Jordan Davis not receiving the same amount of media attention or criticism as the George Zimmerman vs. Trayvon Martin case?

 

 

GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: WHITE MAN, APPARENTLY

 

Oh yeah that's right he is only half white. Eliminating any possible notion of prejudice or racial profiling that might have taken place. Oops, my mistake.  My whole explanation is ruined due to a small technical error. Dammit.

[No_Pressure]

 

It's more or less the same story all over again: a white man shooting a black teenager dead in Florida in a tragic dispute that perhaps could have been avoided. Yet, why is Jacksonville trial of Michael Dunn and Jordan Davis not receiving the same amount of media attention or criticism as the George Zimmerman vs. Trayvon Martin case?

 

 

GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: WHITE MAN, APPARENTLY

 

Oh yeah that's right he is only half white. Eliminating any possible notion of prejudice or racial profiling that might have taken place. Oops, my mistake.  My whole explanation is ruined due to a small technical error. Dammit.

Look, all I'm saying is everyone is counting him as a full on white guy, and this as strictly a white on black crime. In reality he's less white than Desi Arnaz pounding a bongo drum down at the Babalu, but this can't be a hispanic on black crime because that's just unexciting now, isn't it?

[twa]

Would like to know more details about this case, and what the witnesses have to say.   The one mistake the 71 year old made might have been brandishing his weapon in the first place since I think that itself is a crime? maybe?

 

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/crime/role-reversal-judge-rejects-71-year-old-black-man-trevor-dooley-s-stand-your-ground

I'd say he made more than one, but clearly presenting yourself as a threat does excuse the response from the person threatened to a point

 

as to the crimes

Trevor dooley

Is found guiltyof manslaughter with a weapon, guiltyof improper exhibition of a dangerous weapon, Guilty of open carrying of a weapon.