bulldog Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 for all those who think the protection has been good overall with just a couple of breakdowns here and there to go along with some hesitancy from Ramsey, you can take it from those facing the Redskins each week: from Today's WP: Ramsey didn't face "some pressure" as much as he faced what Sapp later called "the floodgates wide open." Ramsey winced when he put on his suit jacket in the locker room afterward. And the Redskins had better figure out pretty quickly how to protect their young passer or their season is going to get ugly and their quarterback will need so many bandages he'll be mummified. This has been going on for six games, and that's if you count this season. In the opener, the Jets' John Abraham put a shot on Ramsey that brought a gasp from the patrons at FedEx Field. The next week in Atlanta, Patrick Kearney and Keith Brooking hit Ramsey so hard it sounded like they were whacking him with a baseball bat. In Week 3, the Giants' Michael Strahan couldn't believe how many clean pops he got on the kid. Last week, the Eagles' Darwin Walker brought the pain a couple of times. The cumulative effect ought to scare somebody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitman56 Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 If we think its bad now, just wait until Rob Johnson is the starter. Yikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 100% Helton. Him and Stock are like Nolan and LeCharles to me. Fire them now. How can it get any worse without them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljer Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 In Week 3, the Giants' Michael Strahan couldn't believe how many clean pops he got on the kid. Did Strahan get near Ramsey in that game??? Did I miss something there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted October 13, 2003 Author Share Posted October 13, 2003 worse than the 21 sacks is the hits. we don't take that into consideration. the Falcons hit Ramsey 10 or 12 times. yesterday Ramsey was on the ground after almost all of his throws in the second half. clearly a line where you are paying three players top dollar as blue chippers should be doing better than this. there are teams around the NFL that don't have ONE pro bowl caliber starter on the OL and are having decent seasons. Spurrier asked for better players in the offseason and he got them, now he has to modify what he is doing to make use of them. does anyone really think that in a trade of personnel that Parcells wouldn't have the Redskins at 4-1 and the Cowboys would be 3-3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 doesn't matter if you've got talent if the guy coaching the OL doesn't know how to put them in the right place. Where is Russ Grimm when you need him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phat Hog Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Surprised Snyder hasn't gotten involved..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Symbol Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Originally posted by ljer Did Strahan get near Ramsey in that game??? Did I miss something there? Yes he did, he didn't get a sack, but he got several knock downs on him. He smacked him around quite a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaSkinzBaby Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Can we hire a hitman to shoot Helton? Can someone at Redskin park poison his coffee or something?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlanta Skins Fan Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Originally posted by The Ghost of Bufford Where is Russ Grimm when you need him? Is there an echo in here? July 28, 2002: Where's Russ Grimm when you need him? Questions for OL coach Kim Helton Hey, how's McCants working out? And Ray Brown: Boy, if you love sacks, you gotta love the way Helton thumbed his nose at Ray Brown and actually traded with the Lions to get already injured Brenden Stai, who cost us a #5 pick and twice the salary-cap hit as the free-agent Brown. Here's the beauty part: Ray Brown replaced Stai in the Lions OL, and here are the results: Lions sacks allowed: 2001 (with Stai): 66 (#31 in NFL) 2002 (with Brown): 20 (#1 in NFL) 2003 (with Brown): 4 (#2 in NFL) What makes you want to cry: Ray Brown wanted to come home and sign with his old team the Redskins at the vet minimum. Helton wouldn't let him. "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heave about the space of half an hour." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCS Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 What Sapp actually said in this article. http://www.freelancestar.com/News/FLS/2003/102003/10132003/1131884 "I don't think [Ramsey] had ever faced anything like that," Sapp said. "We were banging him around, and we were still coming. It was just a matter of time. We kept the floodgates wide open, and eventually we're going to break them down." There hasn't been alot of disagreement about the Oline having problems this season. You hear that from the Skins coaches and players themsevles. And there has been some improvement. Until yesterday. Of course, playing the world champs yesterday may have had something to do with it. Where to assign the blame seems to be a point of contention. Ya think? Teams fold up the tents and get spanked in later parts of a game have no place further to look than on the field. Not the sidelines. Check this out. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15811-2003Oct12.html Players putting it soley on their shoulders. Right where it belongs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manly Dexter Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Originally posted by Atlanta Skins Fan Is there an echo in here? [/i] Oh boy, here we go. Another, "I'm going to make you feel stupid cus I or someone else with a zillion posts already posted this" post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted October 13, 2003 Author Share Posted October 13, 2003 the fact remains if you leave 5 men in to block your qb is going to get killed unless you have a very special front line. the Rams ran a similar scheme and look at where Warner is after 4 years, slobbering over himself after successive concussions and head injuries. St. Louis is just fortunate Warner was able to take it for several seasons and remain productive and that Bulger was a find by the FO. In my mind when you find a franchise qb, you do your utmost to protect him in your scheme, not lay him open to hits each week as a matter of course. You can't tell me that a talented qb that can throw the deep ball can't be put in a modified scheme that allows for better protection where he can still be productive Saying you can only win with one strategy is a cop out for the staff because they are too lazy, arrogant or insecure to risk change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlanta Skins Fan Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Originally posted by Manly Dexter Oh boy, here we go. Another, "I'm going to make you feel stupid cus I or someone else with a zillion posts already posted this" post. There's a difference, Johnny-Come-Lately: I posted this sh!t about Helton before Spurrier's first preseason game in 2002. McCants vs. Gardner after one preseason game. Ray Brown before he was released by the 49ers. Stai before the trade. And for crap like that, I was probably the most loathed member of this forum last year. Ask anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCS Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Interesting that Howie Long made that point about 5 Olinemen yesterday and today it's showing up all over the place. Howie, with all due respect, that should have bee "at times" the Redskins leave just the 5 linemen ect..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted October 13, 2003 Author Share Posted October 13, 2003 here's what's amusing to me. Ramsey gets hit 10-12 times a game and yet some fans point out the times he hesitates on his release and say 'it's all Ramsey's fault and our all-pro linemen are not to blame'........what a cop out. anyone who watched the Abraham hit in the opener or Brady Smith smacking Ramsey under the helmet in Atlanta or saw Darwin Walker single-handedly blow up the Redskins in two series in the fourth quarter of the Eagles game, KNOWS there is more to this story than Ramsey's growing pains. Samuels and Jansen have both been beaten one on one in games. Moore and Dockery were schooled in double teams on Walker and Simon. Fiore had consecutive penalties in one game for holding and jumping offsides. Samuels had consecutive holding penalties, one of which cost the team what would have been the winning TD against the Giants. there are some sacred cows on this team. that's fine. just keep believing we have this all-pro line when we are unable to run the ball or keep the quarterback upright against the better defenses we face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 the fact remains if you leave 5 men in to block your qb is going to get killed unless you have a very special front line. Lets see.... Samuels, Jansen, Thomas... I thought they WERE supposed to be special? Our two "Pro Bowl" Tackles were supposed to be the cornerstone that with the addition of Thomas was supposed to be one of the best in the NFL. Thomas has held up his end of the bargain. Is it too much to ask that Samuals lives up to his $10 million contract or Jansen to his $8 million? Also, what I saw yesterday was 6 and 7 men blocking. Who here actually believes that it was planned to tripple team Sapp and leave Rice to a TE? Even if you believe that Helton and/or Spurrier suck, do you honestly think they drew that play up like that? I said this before but it's worth repeating; On running plays the line play is pre-determined. On passing plays the line has the responsibility to look across from them and determine who needs to be blocked and adjust as necessary. If Samuels is too stupid to realize that he is the only one who has a chance to block Rice, that's HIS fault. Not Spurriers. :gus: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Originally posted by bulldog here's what's amusing to me. Ramsey gets hit 10-12 times a game and yet some fans point out the times he hesitates on his release and say 'it's all Ramsey's fault and our all-pro linemen are not to blame'........what a cop out. anyone who watched the Abraham hit in the opener or Brady Smith smacking Ramsey under the helmet in Atlanta or saw Darwin Walker single-handedly blow up the Redskins in two series in the fourth quarter of the Eagles game, KNOWS there is more to this story than Ramsey's growing pains. Samuels and Jansen have both been beaten one on one in games. Moore and Dockery were schooled in double teams on Walker and Simon. Fiore had consecutive penalties in one game for holding and jumping offsides. Samuels had consecutive holding penalties, one of which cost the team what would have been the winning TD against the Giants. there are some sacred cows on this team. that's fine. just keep believing we have this all-pro line when we are unable to run the ball or keep the quarterback upright against the better defenses we face. I think the point is that Ramsey holding on to the ball too long at times is PART of the problem. We have a situation here that cannot be fixed but one or another means. The line needs to play better. Ramsey needs to get rid of the ball sooner. Hell, maybe spurrier *does* need to keep more people in to block more often (altough there ARE times you need to send more people out). BTW. Please don't think I'm trying to give you a hard time here. I'm trying to agree with you too a point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Where is Russ Grimm when you need him? It is amazing how Samuels and Jansen have regressed since the arrival of Kim Helton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsbadd Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Originally posted by bulldog In my mind when you find a franchise qb, you do your utmost to protect him in your scheme, not lay him open to hits each week as a matter of course. You can't tell me that a talented qb that can throw the deep ball can't be put in a modified scheme that allows for better protection where he can still be productive Saying you can only win with one strategy is a cop out for the staff because they are too lazy, arrogant or insecure to risk change. Right on bulldog! I haven't seen one designed roll out play yet! Do something,anything! Ramsey is getting killed in there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inmate running the asylum Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 I can remember the Skins having trouble in a particular game or two under Joe Gibbs, protecting Joe Theismann and Mark Rypien. So what did Gibbs do...... he made adjustments....... which he was a master at during halftime. He used a "rolling pocket" on occasion or had two 270 lb TE's stay in to protect Mark Rypien. Or he had the QB's roll out and throw an occasional pass on the move. And it worked. Spurrier though seems to be trying to prove his Fun n' Gun system will work in the NFL, instead of changing and adapting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B&G Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 As long as Patrick can set his feet, the rollout sounds good to me. I've noticed Patrick isn't very accurate throwing on the run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Washington Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 thomas is the best lineman we got right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blondie Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Originally posted by Atlanta Skins Fan There's a difference, Johnny-Come-Lately: I posted this sh!t about Helton before Spurrier's first preseason game in 2002. McCants vs. Gardner after one preseason game. Ray Brown before he was released by the 49ers. Stai before the trade. And for crap like that, I was probably the most loathed member of this forum last year. Ask anyone. What do you mean last year ? :jk: These guys are missing so assignments. The communication from coach to player to delivery is breaking down. But unfortunately......we as fans......don't know where the breakdown is. Players are not going to say........"God.........Samuels blows." Players are open in the flat. One thing for sure........Patrick won't make it through the season if he continues to be pummeled like he has been. Blondie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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