***2021-2022 NBA Season Thread***

[Hersh]

40 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

I think they actually did a decent job with it,considering they had nothing.  They've got a crapload of shooters, which is what everybody wanted.  Dudley can shoot, Cook can shoot, Green can shoot, Daniels can shoot.  That whole second column really is shooters, plus Caruso.  Horton Tucker is a rookie, but known for his defense, Javale can defend.

 

I dont worry so much about who starts and who doesn't, it's the minutes that count.  They'll figure out a rotation that gets the best mix. 

 

But as it is, you could run out Rondo, Green, Lebron, AD, Cousins.  Then, Cook, KCP, Dudley, Kuzma, and McGee behind them.  There's your 10 man rotation.  It definitely can work, just gotta figure it out.  

 

Crapload of shooters? Green was awful in the playoffs and while he had a good regular season, that’s an outlier of the last few years. Dudley has been in decline the last few years and his shooting is way down. Troy Daniels peaked 3-4 years ago but still has a decent 3 point percent. Terrible from 2 point land. Cook was good in the regular season then awful in the playoffs the last two seasons. Maybe you meant Crap shooters 

[justice98]

25 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

What Kawhi did was recruit a player already under contract with another team and convince him to ask for a trade to the team Kawhi wanted to go to.  That is hugely unethical.  No, it is not ok for free agents to recruit players under contracts with other teams onto the ones they are trying to sign with.  Recruiting other free agents is one thing, but they should not be allowed to tamper.  Players who engage in team building should absolutely have to follow the same rules as the teams themselves.

 

The NBA is going to have to address this problem in their next CBA negotation, because it is very destabilizing and damaging to the league as a whole.  They're going to have to create harsh punishments for doing what Kawhi did, not fines, but suspensions.  Long suspensions.  And they're going to have to reform the way agents work as go-betweens to recruit for their star clients when they're under contract with separate teams and ban unethical agents like Rich Paul from doing business with the league.

 

Except there is no violation of tampering rules.  Kind of an important detail here. 

 

A private citizen (which is what Kawhi was essentially) convincing somebody to ask for a trade cant be a violation.  It just cant.  Unless the rule is now gonna be no player under contract can talk to anybody unless they're under contract to the same team. Which is woefully unenforceable.  You're basically putting enforcement in the hands of NBA insiders like Woj.  If he says 2 guys were talking, watch out.  

 

Suggesting future Kawhis (UFA) be prohibited from talking to (or "convincing", if you prefer) players under contract of anything.  That seems crazy.    

 

Maybe, maybe, I can see a rule where a players under contract with different teams cant make an arrangement.  Like penalizing Lebron for convincing AD to force a trade to LA.  Essentially making Lebron an agent of the Lakers, and subject to team tampering rules.  That's the only way to do it.  But even that is pretty sketchy.  Because it's giving Lebron mind control powers over AD.

 

I have more of a problem with the agent thing.  More of a problem as in a little, whereas I have zero problem with players talking to each other.

Edited July 7, 2019 by justice98

[Warhead36]

I do think its tampering to some extent but how the hell do you enforce it really? Guys talk all the time.

[Spaceman Spiff]

12 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Listening to how active Kawhi was in recruiting for the Clippers, he didn't really want to stay in Toronto or go to the Lakers.  He played them off the Clippers to get the Clippers to pull the trigger on that Paul George trade.

 

Kawhi is a genius.  But damn, he is ruthless.  He's got a future as an NBA GM.

 

I read the article about Kawhi recruiting PG.  Honestly, I think it's a bit overblown.

 

The media likes to romanticize these things and they like to give us the behind the scenes scoop and the stuff that was on the qt and very hush-hush because...well, it's their job to romanticize these things and give us the scoop on the qt and very hush-hush things.  

 

But stepping back from it and looking at it from PG's perspective, it's really a no brainer and I'm not so sure a lot of arm-twisting needed to happen.  First, PG is from LA.  Second, Kawhi is the hottest player in the game right now, he just lifted himself into true NBA legend status in the span of about 8 weeks.  Third, he's stuck in OKC with Russ and is watching the Lakers load up with AD and GSW still staying pretty respectable.  OKC hasn't done anything to really get too much better and if Kawhi goes to the Lakers or the Clippers it's only going to kick OKC further down the standings.  

 

I'm not so sure it's a fantastic recruiting effort to say to someone "Hey, I just won a ring, I'm going to shift the balance of power in the NBA anywhere I go.  And I'm going to LAC, but I want you to come back home with me.  Face it, you're not going to win anything in OKC, you're going to spend the prime of your career as a 6th to 8th seed in the playoffs and then try to latch on to a super-team later on in your career to get a ring.  That's the destiny of Russ and I know you don't want that.  I won in San Antonio, I won in Toronto and I'm going to do it again here because I know what it takes.  Go talk to your agent and ask for a trade out of there and come with me and let's do this together."

 

That's not really genius, IMO.  Sure, it sounds good and it's a good sales pitch but to go to a star player on an average team that's only going to get worse because you're headed to their conference and to tell him to come with you...kind of a no brainer and I'm sure PG's arm didn't need to be twisted too much.

 

 

 

[justice98]

25 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

Crapload of shooters? Green was awful in the playoffs and while he had a good regular season, that’s an outlier of the last few years. Dudley has been in decline the last few years and his shooting is way down. Troy Daniels peaked 3-4 years ago but still has a decent 3 point percent. Terrible from 2 point land. Cook was good in the regular season then awful in the playoffs the last two seasons. Maybe you meant Crap shooters 

 

So you're basing all of this on the playoffs?  

 

Danny Green was 2nd in the league in 3pt percentage during the regular season.  A bad playoffs him a crap shooter?  Dudley's 3pt percentage is in line with what it's always been.  Daniels and Cook can knock down open shots.  None of these cats are gonna be asked to do heavy lifting.  Just stand out there and knock down open 3s.  

[Spaceman Spiff]

31 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

It's paying off small market teams to keep them quiet about egregious violations of tampering rules that do lasting harm to their franchises, but they are still being held hostage and the net effect is they lose their superstar players and are turned into farm systems for other organizations.

 

What Kawhi did was recruit a player already under contract with another team and convince him to ask for a trade to the team Kawhi wanted to go to.  That is hugely unethical.  No, it is not ok for free agents to recruit players under contracts with other teams onto the ones they are trying to sign with.  Recruiting other free agents is one thing, but they should not be allowed to tamper.  Players who engage in team building should absolutely have to follow the same rules as the teams themselves.

 

The NBA is going to have to address this problem in their next CBA negotation, because it is very destabilizing and damaging to the league as a whole.  They're going to have to create harsh punishments for doing what Kawhi did, not fines, but suspensions.  Long suspensions.  And they're going to have to reform the way agents work as go-betweens to recruit for their star clients when they're under contract with separate teams and ban unethical agents like Rich Paul from doing business with the league.

 

This all went out the window the second that the NBA allowed players to compete together in international tournaments like the Olympics.

 

Quote

Kevin Durant was getting ready to commit to the Brooklyn Nets, along with his good friends Kyrie Irving and DeAndre Jordan. They'd all grown close in 2016 with the United States Olympic Team and had talked often about playing with one another someday. All that remained was for free agency to officially open on the evening of June 30.

 

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27130335/how-kawhi-pulled-paul-george-away-okc

 

I think back in the day you had guys like Magic and Bird who hated each other, then got friendly when they filmed that commercial for Converse.  Still, they never took the floor together in their primes and had the idea of "Hey...maybe we could team up and play together, this is kinda fun and we work well together."

 

Putting these guys on Olympic teams together changed everything.  And I'm not complaining about it, I just think it did two things...one, it made them get friendly with each other and hang out.  Two, it showed superstars that they can figure out how to co-exist and succeed.  And then you get **** like this:

 

 

Can you imagine Michael Jordan, Charles Barkley and Larry Bird together on a banana boat pre 1992 Dream Team?

 

So when you get a situation like this, KD hanging with Kyrie and Jordan on an Olympic team, talking about playing together one day...I mean, what can you do?  And once those lines have become crossed, they become exceptionally blurry...blurry to a point now where it doesn't matter if they ever played on an Olympic team together or not.  Kawhi didn't even know PG that well but according to the article he didn't seem to have to think twice about picking up the phone and calling him and saying "Yo, let's go."  

 

IMO, that doesn't ever happen if there's no Dream Team.  And again, I'm not complaining, but it's gradually graduated from guys who were rivals playing together and being friendly ....to playing together and then TALKING about playing together someday....and then hatching plans and following through on those plans...to just being able to straight up recruit another player.  

 

I said a few weeks ago, I think the NBA GM almost doesn't matter anymore.  They do from a drafting/cap/roster management perspective but when these guys are hatching plans to play together and recruiting each other...whoever your GM is doesn't matter.  These players are running the league and brokering deals on their own.  Toothpaste is out of the tube, you're not gonna be able to get it back in.

[Hersh]

13 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

So you're basing all of this on the playoffs?  

 

Danny Green was 2nd in the league in 3pt percentage during the regular season.  A bad playoffs him a crap shooter?  Dudley's 3pt percentage is in line with what it's always been.  Daniels and Cook can knock down open shots.  None of these cats are gonna be asked to do heavy lifting.  Just stand out there and knock down open 3s.  

 

I'm pretty sure I mentioned Green's regular season was the outlier of the last few years: 33%, 38%, 36%, 45% the last few years. His last three playoff performances: 34%, 25%, 33%

 

Dudley: career 39% from threes. Last three seasons: 38% (2017), 36% (2018), 35% (this season) 

 

I'm basing it the last few years. 

 

 

Edited July 7, 2019 by Hersh

[justice98]

21 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

I'm pretty sure I mentioned Green's regular season was the outlier of the last few years: 33%, 38%, 36%, 45% the last few years. His last three playoff performances: 34%, 25%, 33%

 

Dudley: career 39% from threes. Last three seasons: 38%, 36%, 35%  

 

I'm basing it the last few years. 

 

 

 

The Lakers will take an upper 30s from 3 from those guys.  League average is about 36%.  This team as currently constituted can hit that.  

 

Being out there with AD or Lebron will afford them plenty of open looks.  

24 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

This all went out the window the second that the NBA allowed players to compete together in international tournaments like the Olympics.

 

 

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27130335/how-kawhi-pulled-paul-george-away-okc

 

I think back in the day you had guys like Magic and Bird who hated each other, then got friendly when they filmed that commercial for Converse.  Still, they never took the floor together in their primes and had the idea of "Hey...maybe we could team up and play together, this is kinda fun and we work well together."

 

Putting these guys on Olympic teams together changed everything.  And I'm not complaining about it, I just think it did two things...one, it made them get friendly with each other and hang out.  Two, it showed superstars that they can figure out how to co-exist and succeed.  And then you get **** like this:

 

 

Not that you were making this argument, but my whole thing is, I've seen no evidence that players today are less competitive and try to win less when the ball tips.  Whether they're friends before or after the final buzzer is irrelevant to me.  That goes for any sport.  

Edited July 7, 2019 by justice98

[Mr. Sinister]

39 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

This all went out the window the second that the NBA allowed players to compete together in international tournaments like the Olympics.

 

 

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27130335/how-kawhi-pulled-paul-george-away-okc

 

I think back in the day you had guys like Magic and Bird who hated each other, then got friendly when they filmed that commercial for Converse.  Still, they never took the floor together in their primes and had the idea of "Hey...maybe we could team up and play together, this is kinda fun and we work well together."

 

Putting these guys on Olympic teams together changed everything.  And I'm not complaining about it, I just think it did two things...one, it made them get friendly with each other and hang out.  Two, it showed superstars that they can figure out how to co-exist and succeed.  And then you get **** like this:

 

 

Can you imagine Michael Jordan, Charles Barkley and Larry Bird together on a banana boat pre 1992 Dream Team?

 

So when you get a situation like this, KD hanging with Kyrie and Jordan on an Olympic team, talking about playing together one day...I mean, what can you do?  And once those lines have become crossed, they become exceptionally blurry...blurry to a point now where it doesn't matter if they ever played on an Olympic team together or not.  Kawhi didn't even know PG that well but according to the article he didn't seem to have to think twice about picking up the phone and calling him and saying "Yo, let's go."  

 

IMO, that doesn't ever happen if there's no Dream Team.  And again, I'm not complaining, but it's gradually graduated from guys who were rivals playing together and being friendly ....to playing together and then TALKING about playing together someday....and then hatching plans and following through on those plans...to just being able to straight up recruit another player.  

 

I said a few weeks ago, I think the NBA GM almost doesn't matter anymore.  They do from a drafting/cap/roster management perspective but when these guys are hatching plans to play together and recruiting each other...whoever your GM is doesn't matter.  These players are running the league and brokering deals on their own.  Toothpaste is out of the tube, you're not gonna be able to get it back in.

 

*Edit, misread the post, my bad

Edited July 7, 2019 by Mr. Sinister

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

I do think its tampering to some extent but how the hell do you enforce it really? Guys talk all the time. 

 

There is a smoking gun here.  Kawhi meets with Paul George.  Paul George immediately then asks to be traded to the team that Kawhi signs with.  It was blatant in this case.  Sneakier forms of tampering would still go on and be difficult to detect, but if you could get rid of the really egregious cases like this one, that would be a start and it would strengthen the league.

 

I don't think the league is going to do anything at all about this issue though.  They are very reactionary and they don't really care about the small market franchises.  If they did, they would make an example of Kawhi.

[Kosher Ham]

Hahaha. Conspiracy theories in excess. 

[Renegade7]

Some of y'all are making excuses for Kawhi actively recruiting a player under contract to demand a trade.  Aren't actually tampering charges investigated by the league? 

 

This isn't about how easy a sell this was, its what's been said before that it makes it impossible for certain franchises to build championship teams if players keep picking off their stars versus going there to join forces.

 

Does it matter how many picks you get if the ones that become stars leave to join other stars or demand trades to do the same thing?  It's not they aren't allowed to do that, we just don't let other teams front offices tamper to cause that, we should make players follow the same rules with same tools. 

 

Team's should be allow to accuse players of tampering and NBA investigate.  It won't catch it all, but it will slow that **** down.

Edited July 7, 2019 by Renegade7

[Mooka]

1 hour ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

I said a few weeks ago, I think the NBA GM almost doesn't matter anymore.  They do from a drafting/cap/roster management perspective but when these guys are hatching plans to play together and recruiting each other...whoever your GM is doesn't matter.  These players are running the league and brokering deals on their own.  Toothpaste is out of the tube, you're not gonna be able to get it back in.

 

I'd argue the NBA team doesn't matter anymore. Kawhi wants to play in Los Angeles, not play for the Clippers. If it was the Arizona Clippers Kawhi would be playing for the LA (insert team). I think it more started when an endorsement deal became more important then an NBA contract. Nike started running the league far before this situation we have now.

 

If you look back at KD joining the Warriors, he simply was a FA and went to the best team. Earlier in the NBA this simply wasn't possible. You couldn't afford 3+ All-Star contracts and have 5 Bird-Exception salaries on your team. 

[Kosher Ham]

That last part is not true. 

 

Or perhaps exaggerated. 

[Spaceman Spiff]

42 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Some of y'all are making excuses for Kawhi actively recruiting a player under contract to demand a trade.  Aren't actually tampering charges investigated by the league? 

 

This isn't about how easy a sell this was, its what's been said before that it makes it impossible for certain franchises to build championship teams if players keep picking off their stars versus going there to join forces.

 

Does it matter how many picks you get if the ones that become stars leave to join other stars or demand trades to do the same thing?  It's not they aren't allowed to do that, we just don't let other teams front offices tamper to cause that, we should make players follow the same rules with same tools. 

 

Team's should be allow to accuse players of tampering and NBA investigate.  It won't catch it all, but it will slow that **** down.

 

I don't want to come off making excuse for Kawhi.  But I think the NBA finds itself in an interesting situation here.

 

The NBA hasn't been shy about wanting to make their league a "year round" sport, similar to how the NFL dominates the calendar from the draft, camps, preseason, regular season, playoffs, draft, free agency...and the NBA has done a really good job of copying that model.  

 

I don't think the NBA would ever admit this but they really like what just happened.  The NBA, hands down, has the best offseason of any of the major sports in North America, it's always fun and interesting.  To your point about making it impossible for certain franchises to build championship teams...it's going to be harder for certain teams like OKC.  OKC, simply by their geography is always going to have a harder time.   But PG stayed there to join forces with Russ, right?  GSW was never a destination but they landed KD in free agency.  And us as Wizards fans, it's only been impossible for them to build a championship team strictly because of their ineptitude.  

 

And while the NBA is doing its best to copy a year round model and enjoying the headlines and attention it brings....I don't think they're going to strictly enforce any tampering rules.  I agree that teams should allow to accuse players of tampering but I don't think the NBA is going to be 100% invested in an investigation. 

 

[justice98]

31 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Some of y'all are making excuses for Kawhi actively recruiting a player under contract to demand a trade.  Aren't actually tampering charges investigated by the league? 

 

This isn't about how easy a sell this was, its what's been said before that it makes it impossible for certain franchises to build championship teams if players keep picking off their stars versus going there to join forces.

 

Does it matter how many picks you get if the ones that become stars leave to join other stars or demand trades to do the same thing?  It's not they aren't allowed to do that, we just don't let other teams front offices tamper to cause that, we should make players follow the same rules with same tools. 

 

Team's should be allow to accuse players of tampering and NBA investigate.  It won't catch it all, but it will slow that **** down.

 

A) There's no rule against it.  That really ends it right there.  But for giggles, unless Kawhi was under contract, he can do whatever he wants.  I don't know what rule you're going to invent to stop players not under contract from having conversations.  It's no different than Magic trying to recruit him to the Lakers.  Unless you're gonna say only people that have filed retirement papers with the lesgue can talk to anybody.  I dont think folks have thought this through. 

 

B ) Nobody "demanded" a trade.  Asking for a trade and demanding a trade arent the same thing.  PG only got moved because OKC got an offer they couldnt refuse.  They could have not traded him.  He signed there because he wanted to be there.  A better offer presented itself and ge asked for it.  He's not supposed to see if he can get it?  What if Kawhi werent involved and PG just changed his mind and wanted to go to LA on his own volition, that would be cool?

 

And we're ignoring the fact that small market OKC had a championship caliber squad.  KD leaving wasnt about the market size.  Cant stop people from wanting to go where they want to go. Nor should you.

 

People just seem to want the old top-down system back.  

[Warhead36]

I think people overhype the big city thing a little bit.

 

Nobody wants to play in Chicago or New York.

 

Nobody wanted to play in the Bay Area until the Warriors became great, and they became great by drafting and building the right way.

 

Nobody wanted to play for the Clippers until they got Jerry West and Doc Rivers running things.

 

The Lakers are a bit of an exception right now but I think they just have an advantage because of all the Laker history and now the Lebron factor. If Lebron didn't decide to sign there for his own post basketball Hollywood aspirations, they'd be a dead franchise just like the Knicks and Bulls.

[Renegade7]

17 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

A) There's no rule against it.  That really ends it right there.  

 

That's an incredible cop out that ignores every aspect of our history looking at a situation and eventually deciding to change the rules counter it.  There didnt used to be laws against hacking computers because there were no computers, applying 20th century NBA rules to a 21st century league is lazy.

 

Quote

B ) Nobody "demanded" a trade.  Asking for a trade and demanding a trade arent the same thing.  

 

This is semantics, he wanted out of OKC and Kawhi convinced him to push his way out for his own benefit.  This isn't just a situation where PG had enough, someone from the outside came in and poured gasoline on the situation.

 

Quote

 

And we're ignoring the fact that small market OKC had a championship caliber squad.  KD leaving wasnt about the market size.  Cant stop people from wanting to go where they want to go. Nor should you.

 

Your confusing a bunch of stuff together like they are the same thing and they aren't.

 

  Nobody has said anything about Magic talking to Kawhi after he was already a free agent because that's not the problem here.  This particular topic is about a player convincing another under contract to give up in their situation and leave, we don't let front offices do that, why are we letting players? 

 

And the problem with Durant going to GS was it created a total competitive imbalance, its the other side of the coin in this discussion of superstars concentrating versus staying with the team that drafted them while they build a team around them.

 

Quote

People just seem to want the old top-down system back.  

 

You talk like this hasn't effected you yet or you don't care, you are oversimplifying this.

Edited July 7, 2019 by Renegade7

[Bozo the kKklown]

How could Kawhi be tampering when he wasn't on contract with any team? You guys are sounding foolish again and crying about non-existent things.

[Renegade7]

1 minute ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

How could Kawhi be tampering when he wasn't on contract with any team? You guys are sounding foolish again and crying about non-existent things.

 

Agents aren't under contract, are we talking about the literal definition of tampering or the point of the tampering rules in the first place?  If we can't even agree on what tampering is, your right this discussion will go nowhere.

[Dr. Do Itch Big]

Quinn Cook did not shoot well in the finals. 

[Dr. Do Itch Big]

Did Paul George want out before or after KL contacted him. 

 

I also don't think you can fine players for tampering. It doesn’t make any sense. 

 

Also, for all the LeBron haters who **** about him loading the deck with superstars on his team and etc, where’s the ****ing about KL. KL did the exact same thing. Perhaps even more egregiously than LeBron ever did. Hypocrisy 

[justice98]

 

Quote

That's an incredible cop out that ignores every aspect of our history looking at a situation and eventually deciding to change the rules counter it.  There didnt used to be laws against hacking computers because there were no computers, applying 20th century NBA rules to a 21st century league is lazy.

 

There's been free agency for a long time. It only became an issue when guys didnt go to the teams people wanted.  

 

The issue is really all the super soft cap loopholes in the NBA that allow such things.  The luxury tax, Bird rights, exceptions, etc.  People should direct their energies there, rather than at the players.  

 

Quote

This is semantics, he wanted out of OKC and Kawhi convinced him to push his way out for his own benefit.  This isn't just a situation where PG had enough, someone from the outside came in and poured gasoline on the situation.

 

No it's not.  You keep characterizing it in a way that makes it more nefarious.  "Demanded", "push his way out", however you wanna say it.  PG didnt have the leverage here.   Cant stop people from wanting what they want though.  

 

And now Kawhi has Jedi mind tricks to get people to do his bidding.  Damn Kawhi.  

 

Quote

Nobody has said anything about Magic talking to Kawhi after he was already a free agent because that's not the problem here.  This particular topic is about a player convincing another under contract to give up in their situation and leave, we don't let front offices do that, why are we letting players? 

 

What part of Kawhi being a free agent is confusing? He wasnt a player under contract, so he can thus talk to who he wants, about what he wants.  Cant stop an UFA from talking to whoever they want, you just cant.  Please tell me how you would concoct a rule that would have prevented Kawhi from talking to a player under contract.  If/when he eventually signs, he gets penalized for the topic of conversation?  It's just stupid.  

 

Quote

And the problem with Durant going to GS was it created a total competitive imbalance, its the other side of the coin in this discussion of superstars concentrating versus staying with the team that drafted them while they build a team around them.

 

Except it didnt.  That's a flawed argument people insist on making.  It just isnt true.  GS wasnt some unbeatable monster that nobody had a chance against.  They didnt steamroll the league and win 5 straight titles like people wanna make it sound. 

 

Quote

You talk like this hasn't effected you yet or you don't care, you are oversimplifying this.

 

You're right, I dont care.  I think the superteam argument is dumb and preventing players from talking to each other is also a dumb argument to make.  

 

 

Edited July 7, 2019 by justice98

[Momma There Goes That Man]

I don’t know if it’s technically tampering or not and I don’t really care either. 

 

The players have control in the nba and I’d much rather support that than the NFL style where players literally risk their health and well-being while being entirely ruled by the franchise with little to no say in their future. 

 

I love this era of player empowerment. It only takes a couple years to rewrite the league and the top teams and it seems anything can change at a moments notice. 

 

[Renegade7]

21 minutes ago, Dr. Do Itch Big said:

Did Paul George want out before or after KL contacted him. 

 

I also don't think you can fine players for tampering. It doesn’t make any sense. 

 

Also, for all the LeBron haters who **** about him loading the deck with superstars on his team and etc, where’s the ****ing about KL. KL did the exact same thing. Perhaps even more egregiously than LeBron ever did. Hypocrisy 

 

We're in the middle of that discussion right now.