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***2021-2022 NBA Season Thread***


RonArtest15

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The Jazz were not a great team. Stockton and Malone went to the finals after all the really strong Western Conference teams got old and disbanded. They got to the finals because they lasted the longest.

This is as close to objectively untrue as anything in a debate like this can be. Both the 97 and 98 Jazz had an ELO of around 1765 at their peak (ELO being 538's pet metric for exactly this type of discussion).

For comparison, the Cavs have an ELO of 1759 as of today. The Warriors are at 1756 and peaked at 1839 on 12/11/15. The Bulls peaked at 1853, and both championships against the Jazz came with them around a 1790.

Now, you can not like ELO, but at that point you're arguing against the most respected stats/data folks in the sports world. Not only did the Bulls play a team on level with these Warriors...they BEAT them, and did so in 6 games. Two years in a row.

Edited by drtdrums
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This is as close to objectively untrue as anything in a debate like this can be. Both the 97 and 98 Jazz had an ELO of around 1765 at their peak (ELO being 538's pet metric for exactly this type of discussion).

For comparison, the Cavs have an ELO of 1759 as of today. The Warriors are at 1756 and peaked at 1839 on 12/11/15. The Bulls peaked at 1853, and both championships against the Jazz came with them around a 1790.

Now, you can not like ELO, but at that point you're arguing against the most respected stats/data folks in the sports world. Not only did the Bulls play a team on level with these Warriors...they BEAT them, and did so in 6 games. Two years in a row.

 

At some level, this turns into where do you want to draw the line for great.

 

Does anybody think the Mavs in the Nowitizki era were or have been an all time great team?  Most people I know don't, and they have a max ELO of 1773 so surpassing the Jazz (and it wasn't the title team even).  Dirk is great player, but in his tenure the Mavs as a team have not been great.

 

538 themselves seems the draw line at 1800:

 

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-best-nba-teams-of-all-time-according-to-elo/

 

And why are we comparing their peak and not to where they were when they actually played or the season long composite?

 

I think if you look at 538, they normally use a season long composite and not just the beak or at one moment.  Thought, that might help or hurt your argument that the Jazz were an all time great team.

Edited by PeterMP
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So Lebron was the first to lead a playoff series in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks, and it was an NBA finals.  Now, partly that is a function of his usage (he also lead in turnovers), but it still is an amazing feat.

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This is as close to objectively untrue as anything in a debate like this can be. Both the 97 and 98 Jazz had an ELO of around 1765 at their peak (ELO being 538's pet metric for exactly this type of discussion).

For comparison, the Cavs have an ELO of 1759 as of today. The Warriors are at 1756 and peaked at 1839 on 12/11/15. The Bulls peaked at 1853, and both championships against the Jazz came with them around a 1790.

Now, you can not like ELO, but at that point you're arguing against the most respected stats/data folks in the sports world. Not only did the Bulls play a team on level with these Warriors...they BEAT them, and did so in 6 games. Two years in a row.

The 2008/2009 Cavs had a higher ELO rating than the 96/97 Jazz.

There are many more messes in that ranking too but maybe you should scrutinize the data more the get back to me.

The Jazz were not a great team, they just hung around until the rest if the west got old.

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My conclusion in the MJ vs. LeBron debate is that Lakers fans are ignorant and in denial about the fact that Kobe is a notch below both of the aforementioned players. It's nauseating to hear their bull****. LeBron passed Kobe a while ago and is only increasing the separation.

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On the bright side, depending on what Durant does, I see no reason to think we won't get the rubber match next season.

Hopefully this turns into our generations Lakers/Celtics with the contrasting styles and genuine dislike etc

Cavs can ship off Love for some pieces that fit better and become a true force.

Warriors can reshape their team as well and get better. Hopefully they cruise in the regular season and entire the playoffs hitting their stride

Edited by Momma There Goes That Man
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Have anyone else caught how several ESPN personalities are taking shots at Skip Bayless over LeBron now that he's leaving after tomorrow? They had MANY opportunities, why now?

I was listening to the Russilo show, and they got into it. Talking about how skip can't take criticism, and it's easier to just leave him alone instead of dealing with him.

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