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***2019-2020 NBA Season Thread***


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9 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

I’ve never cared about this. It’s the dumbest thing in the world to care about. Maximize the limited time you have in the league doing something you love by winning and playing with friends


Why is the perceived lack of “competitive balance” blamed on 23 year olds who have been in the league for 3 years and not blamed on the 50/60/70 year old owners who have been in the league for 30+ years?
 

I’ll hang up and listen...

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8 hours ago, Mr. Sinister said:

Let me guess. Richmond Redskins has entered the chat

 

LOL, I knew it


Problem? Why because I put a quote out from a star saying he would be eager to team up with other stars? 

9 hours ago, TryTheBeal! said:


Why is the perceived lack of “competitive balance” blamed on 23 year olds who have been in the league for 3 years and not blamed on the 50/60/70 year old owners who have been in the league for 30+ years?
 

I’ll hang up and listen...


Because the stars inevitably snub the small markets for the big markets to create super teams.  Honestly we should just shut down half the league. It’s not like they have a chance anyway. 

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1 hour ago, RichmondRedskin88 said:


Problem? Why because I put a quote out from a star saying he would be eager to team up with other stars? 


Because the stars inevitably snub the small markets for the big markets to create super teams.  Honestly we should just shut down half the league. It’s not like they have a chance anyway. 

 

To add to this, why would the Bucks owner be to blame if Giannis walks to form a super team somewhere? Yes, some owners run terrible organizations, but there are plenty of small market teams that do it right.

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1 hour ago, Hersh said:

 

To add to this, why would the Bucks owner be to blame if Giannis walks to form a super team somewhere? Yes, some owners run terrible organizations, but there are plenty of small market teams that do it right.


Exactly.  Bucks owner has been proactive.  Heck OKC is too.  Not their fault their stars want to find other stars to get an easy championship.  People here acting like owners tell them to get out after their rookie contract.  Look where the players go.  Miami, LA, San Fran Houston, NYC,  etc.  The only reason Cleveland got a super team was Lebron recruited them.  Might as well make the league 10 teams at most honestly because the others don’t have a chance.  Toronto knew there was no chance of keeping Leonard.  It’s a miracle San Antonio had the consistency and stability for years it had.  But that was different times when players felt at home and cared about their city.  Rare breeds like John Wall and Dirk.  Now it’s about what’s the easiest ring route and what’s the biggest city to get my name upon the lights.  And heck if I’m in LA maybe after my career and I get into Hollywood? The times of Detroit and even Chicago being big basketball names is over.  Players don’t dream of building a winning culture anymore and making their city a championship city.  Atleast not many.  Kudos to the ones that do.  Blaming the owners for stars teaming up in certain cities is a weak excuse.   They know full well those players would have done what they did even if a owner trying to lure them offered to buy them the state of Hawaii and name a volcano after them. 

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3 hours ago, RichmondRedskin88 said:


Problem? Why because I put a quote out from a star saying he would be eager to team up with other stars? 

 

No. Because you literally pop in here to make a different version of the same post, to the point where I knew it was you without even looking.

 

Don't worry, you're not alone :cheers:

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19 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

 

No. Because you literally pop in here to make a different version of the same post, to the point where I knew it was you without even looking.

 

Don't worry, you're not alone :cheers:


Not really the same post. More reinforcing  my point that anyone thinking there isn’t true effort of certain stars to make these super teams happen is putting their head in the sand. Quite simply while we would love a competitive league like the NHL, NFL, MLS, MLB (Maybe less so for MLB). where multiple teams have a real chance that’s not gonna happen with the mentality now.  That Miami super team put a seed in player’s heads.  Then they saw GSW (Though to be fair they just drafted well and then Durant hopped on board.).  They saw Lebron build the Cleveland super team.  All recent players saw were super teams clashing for the last decade with a few exceptions like Toronto and Dallas. Honestly we may never have a true competitive league again.  NBA is cool with the China money they got rolling in so they have no incentive to change.  It’s ironic years ago nba stepped in to block a trade for competitive reasons yet the NBA is anything but competitive now. I could have sat on the GSW bench and won a couple of rings with a team that stacked.  Maybe when certain players retire that push for these super teams we will see talent spread out again.  If Super teams is simply how it’s gonna be going forward then we really don’t need that many teams. 

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2 hours ago, Hersh said:

 

To add to this, why would the Bucks owner be to blame if Giannis walks to form a super team somewhere? Yes, some owners run terrible organizations, but there are plenty of small market teams that do it right.

 

45 minutes ago, RichmondRedskin88 said:


Exactly.  Bucks owner has been proactive.  Heck OKC is too.  Not their fault their stars want to find other stars to get an easy championship.  People here acting like owners tell them to get out after their rookie contract.  Look where the players go.  Miami, LA, San Fran Houston, NYC,  etc.  The only reason Cleveland got a super team was Lebron recruited them.  Might as well make the league 10 teams at most honestly because the others don’t have a chance.  Toronto knew there was no chance of keeping Leonard.  It’s a miracle San Antonio had the consistency and stability for years it had.  But that was different times when players felt at home and cared about their city.  Rare breeds like John Wall and Dirk.  Now it’s about what’s the easiest ring route and what’s the biggest city to get my name upon the lights.  And heck if I’m in LA maybe after my career and I get into Hollywood? The times of Detroit and even Chicago being big basketball names is over.  Players don’t dream of building a winning culture anymore and making their city a championship city.  Atleast not many.  Kudos to the ones that do.  Blaming the owners for stars teaming up in certain cities is a weak excuse.   They know full well those players would have done what they did even if a owner trying to lure them offered to buy them the state of Hawaii and name a volcano after them. 

 

So institute a hard cap and revenue share local streams.  If owners allow big market teams to rake in revenue from unshared streams, why shouldn't the players go to those big market teams and say we want a piece of the pie too?  If league rules favor teams and players in big time markets, those in charge of writing the rules hardly have anything to complain about when players maximize their opportunity under those rules.

 

And those unshared local revenue allows teams in big markets to pay ungodly sums of luxury tax for fitting multiple max deals while small town teams would never go over the luxury cap on such a consistent basis.

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23 minutes ago, bearrock said:

 

 

So institute a hard cap and revenue share local streams.  If owners allow big market teams to rake in revenue from unshared streams, why shouldn't the players go to those big market teams and say we want a piece of the pie too?  If league rules favor teams and players in big time markets, those in charge of writing the rules hardly have anything to complain about when players maximize their opportunity under those rules.

 

And those unshared local revenue allows teams in big markets to pay ungodly sums of luxury tax for fitting multiple max deals while small town teams would never go over the luxury cap on such a consistent basis.

 

No argument from me on that. The NFL and NHL caps work better than the NBA. 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, bearrock said:

So institute a hard cap and revenue share local streams.

 

This is one place the players do have responsibility for the status quo that limits competitive balance.  I don't know about revenue sharing, but we can be sure that owners would be in favor of a hard cap.  The problem there is that the player's union would never allow it without getting a major concession in return.  Something like getting rid of max contracts as a starting point.

 

If we look at the incentives for each of the interested parties--team front offices, players, and fans (customers), we see that the player's incentives diverge from everyone else's.  They have no real incentive for promoting competitive balance.  It's better for the best and most influential players if there isn't broad parity.  They maximize their earnings and fame as well as their legacy achievements by forming super teams and beating up on an uncompetitive league.  Competitive balance is the fan's incentive.  And the team's goal is to make fans happy so that they keep buying their product, so it's generally incentivized for them too.  But not wholly and necessarily.  They make money off of LeBron and the Lake Show coming to town too, and the sort of event basketball that happens when the few great teams in the league match up.

 

But in the CBA negotiations that design the league's competitive structure, the power dynamic is like this: Players ~55%, Owners ~45%, Fans 0%.  So yeah, competitive balance gets ignored.

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26 minutes ago, bearrock said:

 

 

So institute a hard cap and revenue share local streams.  If owners allow big market teams to rake in revenue from unshared streams, why shouldn't the players go to those big market teams and say we want a piece of the pie too?  If league rules favor teams and players in big time markets, those in charge of writing the rules hardly have anything to complain about when players maximize their opportunity under those rules.

 

And those unshared local revenue allows teams in big markets to pay ungodly sums of luxury tax for fitting multiple max deals while small town teams would never go over the luxury cap on such a consistent basis.


As much as I’d love to put the super team issue on rich teams I wonder if even that fixes the issue.  I mean the Knicks have been awful for how long yet they are the richest team and you don’t see anyone building a super team there.  That’s not say they couldn’t though.  The fact is Miami is wealthy but not that wealthy yet they had one.   The problem now is players don’t want to play at certain cities.  You give options of Miami vs LA it’s a toss up but you give me Oklahoma vs San Fran peace out suckers. I don’t know you can truly fix that.  You don’t see  players banging down the doors of Orlando, DC, etc to play.  I’m not sure any level of money fixes that. 

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13 hours ago, TryTheBeal! said:


Why is the perceived lack of “competitive balance” blamed on 23 year olds who have been in the league for 3 years and not blamed on the 50/60/70 year old owners who have been in the league for 30+ years?
 

I’ll hang up and listen...

 

Not every owner is in it to win it (or know how to), no matter much talent they stumble across. Acknowledging that, I have no legitimate gripe with players who want full control over their careers.

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16 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

 

Not every owner is in it to win it (or know how to), no matter much talent they stumble across. Acknowledging that, I have no legitimate gripe with players who want full control over their careers.


On the personal level no I can’t blame a player for wanting a easy championship.  On a competitive level I think it’s cheap and takes away the whole point of why you are playing for the championship. Why do you even play if you wanted it to be easy?  This is definitely showing too.  The final ratings have been dropping for 8-9 years. This year they flatlined.  See college where you can get part 2, part 3, etc you see the drop off.  People are over it.  Same with NBA but I would argue it’s felt harder in the NBA.  Their attendance was already falling below even MLS.  The NBA for many years had the feel of something you took co workers to for entertainment but you had the hardcore fans too.  Now hardcore ones are phasing out.  Ask any Magic, Wizard, Pacer, etc fan if they even get excited anymore.   Much like a beaten  down fan base.  How much does a fan care when they know going into a season they have zero chance year after year.  In other leagues there’s atleast false optimism.  In the nba you know before the season if you will be competitive or a championship contender.  
 

 

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2 hours ago, RichmondRedskin88 said:


Exactly.  Bucks owner has been proactive.  Heck OKC is too.  Not their fault their stars want to find other stars to get an easy championship.  People here acting like owners tell them to get out after their rookie contract.  Look where the players go.  Miami, LA, San Fran Houston, NYC,  etc.  The only reason Cleveland got a super team was Lebron recruited them.  Might as well make the league 10 teams at most honestly because the others don’t have a chance.  Toronto knew there was no chance of keeping Leonard.  It’s a miracle San Antonio had the consistency and stability for years it had.  But that was different times when players felt at home and cared about their city.  Rare breeds like John Wall and Dirk.  Now it’s about what’s the easiest ring route and what’s the biggest city to get my name upon the lights.  And heck if I’m in LA maybe after my career and I get into Hollywood? The times of Detroit and even Chicago being big basketball names is over.  Players don’t dream of building a winning culture anymore and making their city a championship city.  Atleast not many.  Kudos to the ones that do.  Blaming the owners for stars teaming up in certain cities is a weak excuse.   They know full well those players would have done what they did even if a owner trying to lure them offered to buy them the state of Hawaii and name a volcano after them. 


you just named 7 “exceptions” in the last decade alone where small market teams won championships or played in conference finals. Then you claim Chicago is small market simply because they aren’t winning right now. 
 

you don’t make any sense. clearly these teams can do it. Is it more difficult than building as a big market team? Sure. Oh well. How are the knicks doing the last 20 years? 
 

 

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1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

This is one place the players do have responsibility for the status quo that limits competitive balance.  I don't know about revenue sharing, but we can be sure that owners would be in favor of a hard cap.  The problem there is that the player's union would never allow it without getting a major concession in return.  Something like getting rid of max contracts as a starting point.

 

If we look at the incentives for each of the interested parties--team front offices, players, and fans (customers), we see that the player's incentives diverge from everyone else's.  They have no real incentive for promoting competitive balance.  It's better for the best and most influential players if there isn't broad parity.  They maximize their earnings and fame as well as their legacy achievements by forming super teams and beating up on an uncompetitive league.  Competitive balance is the fan's incentive.  And the team's goal is to make fans happy so that they keep buying their product, so it's generally incentivized for them too.  But not wholly and necessarily.  They make money off of LeBron and the Lake Show coming to town too, and the sort of event basketball that happens when the few great teams in the league match up.

 

But in the CBA negotiations that design the league's competitive structure, the power dynamic is like this: Players ~55%, Owners ~45%, Fans 0%.  So yeah, competitive balance gets ignored.

 

I do agree with you that players have no real vested interest in competitive balance unless you look at it from a super macro "health of the league" perspective (and even that's debatable.  But that's why it's incumbent on the owners to give up a major concession so that players would be willing to sacrifice their interest towards achieving better competitive balance.  It goes back to @TryTheBeal!'s point.  Between 20-30 somethings who have no ownership stake in the league and the cadre of billionaire owners, the responsibility to negotiate and promote the long term interest of the league falls on the owners, not the players.  If owners need the players' cooperation in achieving that, then give them something in negotiation to make it worth their while.

 

1 hour ago, RichmondRedskin88 said:


As much as I’d love to put the super team issue on rich teams I wonder if even that fixes the issue.  I mean the Knicks have been awful for how long yet they are the richest team and you don’t see anyone building a super team there.  That’s not say they couldn’t though.  The fact is Miami is wealthy but not that wealthy yet they had one.   The problem now is players don’t want to play at certain cities.  You give options of Miami vs LA it’s a toss up but you give me Oklahoma vs San Fran peace out suckers. I don’t know you can truly fix that.  You don’t see  players banging down the doors of Orlando, DC, etc to play.  I’m not sure any level of money fixes that. 

 

I think a hard cap and no max contract goes a long way towards solving that.  LeBron may like playing with his friends, but does he like it enough to share his hard capped piece of the pie with 2 superstars?  Giannis may not stay in Milwaukee for one more year and a slightly higher per year, but is he gonna turn down 50% of the cap for 30% cause he likes another city better?

 

 

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42 minutes ago, RichmondRedskin88 said:

Ask any Magic, Wizard, Pacer, etc fan if they even get excited anymore.   Much like a beaten  down fan base.  How much does a fan care when they know going into a season they have zero chance year after year.


the wizards fans know this because their FO is crap not because they are a small market 

 

magic played in a finals 10 years ago and have been horribly run. Pacers were one of the best teams in the east from

the late 90s thru mid 00s and then again during the lebron heat era. 
 

these teams can be contenders and win championships they just have to be well run and make good decisions 

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3 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:


you just named 7 “exceptions” in the last decade alone where small market teams won championships or played in conference finals. Then you claim Chicago is small market simply because they aren’t winning right now. 
 

you don’t make any sense. clearly these teams can do it. Is it more difficult than building as a big market team? Sure. Oh well. How are the knicks doing the last 20 years? 
 

 


The small markets are exceptions.  Also Chicago isn’t a small market but they aren’t a destination. The destination teams are LA, NYC/Brooklyn, Miami, maybe Dallas and San Fran.  Maybe Boston still.  Anyone else might as well be a small market.  In this current state of the league no team outside of these will have any chance of winning a championship.  No matter what the team does.  No matter what the owners do.  The teams like Detroit, like Chicago, etc that were basketball icons are dead in the present day and will remain dead competitiveness wise.  The lure of the major market is too much for players.  Throw in a few star teammates and it’s over.  Again right now I see no reason to even have a league this big.  It’s 3-4 if that that might have chance every year and then 26-27 punching bags.  You can see why attendance has been dropping for years.  Unless I’m near one of those teams why would I waste money (NBA tickets ain’t cheap either) going when I know my team isn’t going to be a contender year after year?  Again like I said before atleast other sports you can hope.  There’s a chance.  In the NBA you already know before the season starts. It’s boring.  Out of the Big 4 it’s probably the least credible championship.  NHL you put in a month and even need some luck.  NFL about the same but less luck.  MLB  more like the NBA but teams can get hot and could pull upset if they have the talent. NBA is already done.  You other have a team that’s gonna win it all or you don’t.  Like I said the smaller markets like San Antonio were miracle situations where players actually felt connected to the city and that coach to stay together.  Complete rarity.  San Antonio may honestly never win anything again.  Those players believed in a system.  Players currently just ask themselves how many All stars does it take to win?  

3 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:


the wizards fans know this because their FO is crap not because they are a small market 

 

magic played in a finals 10 years ago and have been horribly run. Pacers were one of the best teams in the east from

the late 90s thru mid 00s and then again during the lebron heat era. 
 

these teams can be contenders and win championships they just have to be well run and make good decisions 


I figured you got my point and that I didn’t need to list out 20+ teams that have no chance of winning anything. 

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