TradeTheBeal! Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Back home from 12 hours of travel and I'm just getting my head around this trade. And it feels like Boston got fleeced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 The only thing I can think of is that IT is 28, Kyrie is 25. Also, IT has that hip injury he's rehabbing this offseason. Might not be anything serious, but you never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 IT is 28, 5'8, and looking at a max deal if you want to keep him. KI is 25, 6'3, and under contract for two years until decisions have to be made. I think the bottom line is that Boston did not want to see what a 31 year old IT on a max deal looks like. Neither guy plays defense, thought with Kyrie you can at least talk yourself into the "If he gives an effort, he could be average on D...." With IT, there is no argument to be made. On the other hand, an IT playing for a max deal on a team with Lebron and a chance to win a Finals is going to be beyond intense. I don't think that Nets' pick means as much as it did 12 months ago. It will be a lottery pick, but it could be in that 5-8 no-man's land. Jae Crowder means more to the Cavs than to the Celtics at this point. I think the Celtics are shooting for the 2019 NBA Finals here, not the 2018 (though this gives them a slightly better chance there). If Lebron leaves the Cavs, do the Cavs give Isiah a max deal? Even if they do, where are they are going with IT, Levin Love, and, say, the #4 overall pick? If they don't sign IT and Lebron leaves, they are back to being the hopeless Cavs we all lived with for most of our lives. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveakl Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Lombardi nailed it. This is a 2019-2023 trade for the Celtics and a 2018 then rebuild trade for the Cavs. Unless LeBron stays. Then they can resign IT, move love and the nets pick, and roll on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 I think it's ultimately a good trade for both. The Cavs got rid of an unhappy player and replaced him with an All-Star who is going to play his ass off, a useful role player, and a pretty good pick. The Celtics FINALLY did something with their assets. The entire point of acquiring all these picks, assets, etc. is to be in position to pull the trigger when a Top 10/15 player becomes available. I know he's polarizing, but Kyrie is a young All NBA type talent who is 10,000 percent worthy of a max deal. That's really the question: Everyone on planet Earth would agree that KI is worth a max contract. Isiah has certainly earned a max deal, but the team who signs him to that deal is immediately going to feel uncomfortable. The Cavs' future ultimately rests with what Lebron wants. If Lebron leaves, they have some decent options now. The also have the ability to make another deal to keep Lebron happy. Is that pick plus something else enough to get, I dunno, Wiggins? Will it get you Carmelo? Will that make him happy? This also becomes the ultimate test of Brad Stephens. If he is the coaching savant, we think he is, he has the potential to produce an insane offensive powerhouse next year. Outside of what Golden State has, no team really has the foundation to play space and pace the way Boston does now with Kyrie, Heyward, Horford, and Tatum. Granted, this is basically a brand new team now, which is weird for a #1 seed. If you are Danny Ainge, do you think that Nets pick next year is going to produce a player as good as Kyrie is. PS I heard this a few places last week before Boston got involved. KI is a Team USA player. If there is anything that the Super-Team Era has shown is that those Team USA relationships matter. PS I heard this a few places last week before Boston got involved. KI is a Team USA player. If there is anything that the Super-Team Era has shown is that those Team USA relationships matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRobi21 Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 In true Boston fashion.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillUnknown Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Not like he asked to be traded Thats just dumb. The man came back after his sisters death and thats how they do him? Bostong dont deserve success 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 46 minutes ago, StillUnknown said: Not like he asked to be traded Thats just dumb. The man came back after his sisters death and thats how they do him? Bostong dont deserve success That is a dirtball move, i didn't even see it that way. But they never felt it with him anyway. They just played like it cause it was a nice story. Got damn shame when you think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Do Itch Big Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 I don't think he gets booed when the Cavs first visit the Celtics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 They'd be ridiculous to boo Thomas. But of course this is Boston we're talking about. Irving on the other hand will absolutely get booed. Funny considering he was responsible for the biggest play in Cleveland sports history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Ainge made a bad trade. I think he utterly botched this offseason and that he should have committed to rebuilding around Fultz and the Nets pick for next year with a roster buttressed by strong role playing vets like Bradley and Crowder. Instead he squandered the good fortune of getting the #1 pick by trading down for a much lesser prospect and then traded Crowder and Thomas and next year's pick to acquire two guys who were not substantial upgrades over the outgoing players. Indeed Thomas significantly outplayed Irving last season. Not only that, Ainge lost Bradley and Olynyk in the process of these acquisitions. And going from Amir Johnson to Marcus Morris is probably a downgrade TBH. People also seem to think the Euro player they traded was a quality prospect. Ainge paid full price for Irving when better players in Butler and George got traded for tremendously less. They have two shot creators now instead of one, but neither are top 10 or even top 15 players and there is no guarantee that offense will actually perform substantially better to justify the big decline in defense that's coming. Horford's in decline. Irving's health is even less reliable than Thomas's and he's not as good an off ball player, which was critical for making last season's offense so successful. Marcus Smart is now going to have to start for them and he sucks. They lost some perimeter shooting. Rozier still sucks. And the rest of their bench is an unplayable collection of rookies and second year guys. And now Boston is pretty much capped out and has nothing really big left from the Pierce/Garnett/Rivers trade hauls. This is their construction. Kyrie Irving & Gordon Hayward aren't scaring anyone. Maybe Kyrie could make a Harden-like leap now that he's got his own team again, but I doubt it. I think LeBron made him far better than he was on his own, his career was sputtering before LeBron came back and saved it. Plus his leadership is garbage, and given that he shat on LeBron, of all people, I can't see him letting Hayward run the show. Irving and Hayward are known quantities. Tatum and Brown are Boston's only X factors left. I think this will be death by a thousand cuts for Ainge and Stevens. I think they take a step back this season and that the long term upside of this construction turns out to be lower than they hoped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justice98 Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 9 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Ainge made a bad trade. I think he utterly botched this offseason and that he should have committed to rebuilding around Fultz and the Nets pick for next year with a roster buttressed by strong role playing vets like Bradley and Crowder. Instead he squandered the good fortune of getting the #1 pick by trading down for a much lesser prospect and then traded Crowder and Thomas and next year's pick to acquire two guys who were not substantial upgrades over the outgoing players. Indeed Thomas significantly outplayed Irving last season. Not only that, Ainge lost Bradley and Olynyk in the process of these acquisitions. And going from Amir Johnson to Marcus Morris is probably a downgrade TBH. People also seem to think the Euro player they traded was a quality prospect. Ainge paid full price for Irving when better players in Butler and George got traded for tremendously less. They have two shot creators now instead of one, but neither are top 10 or even top 15 players and there is no guarantee that offense will actually perform substantially better to justify the big decline in defense that's coming. Horford's in decline. Irving's health is even less reliable than Thomas's and he's not as good an off ball player, which was critical for making last season's offense so successful. Marcus Smart is now going to have to start for them and he sucks. They lost some perimeter shooting. Rozier still sucks. And the rest of their bench is an unplayable collection of rookies and second year guys. And now Boston is pretty much capped out and has nothing really big left from the Pierce/Garnett/Rivers trade hauls. This is their construction. Kyrie Irving & Gordon Hayward aren't scaring anyone. Maybe Kyrie could make a Harden-like leap now that he's got his own team again, but I doubt it. I think LeBron made him far better than he was on his own, his career was sputtering before LeBron came back and saved it. Plus his leadership is garbage, and given that he shat on LeBron, of all people, I can't see him letting Hayward run the show. Irving and Hayward are known quantities. Tatum and Brown are Boston's only X factors left. I think this will be death by a thousand cuts for Ainge and Stevens. I think they take a step back this season and that the long term upside of this construction turns out to be lower than they hoped. I dont think it's nearly as disastrous as that. I think Cle won the trade, but Boston is still in good shape. I dont think they're much better or worse, they're just different. Boston is still sitting on wad of future picks. Yes, most of the best ones are gone/used. But the Lakers are still gonna stink next year and they have their top-1 protected pick. It appears they plan to start Jaylen Brown and bring Smart off the bench. Tatum is a pretty big X-factor though. I just kinda think it was curious to draft a guy 3rd overall in the same year your big signing plays the same position. But I guess that's where the failed Butler trade came in. Getting Butler and inserting Tatum at SF made more sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 They were clearly signs that they were looking to get out of having IT in a contract year before last season even ended. It just made more sense yo me back then to do a straight up Porzingis for IT, then draft Fultz, and build around the two of them, and do what thou wilt. Now not only do you give up IT for basically the same kind of player in Kyrie, but you lose valuable glue guys like Crowder, along with Bradley and Olynyk already. I don't see how Boston is set up for the future or short term. To me, empty top picks are nothing but boogers on the wall, and Ainge has already proven that he can be kind of stupid when it comes to having many of these. The East is a total mystery beyond the Cavs, at this point. Who knows what the hell will happen, but the Celtics seem destined to be bridesmaids for another year at least, and if Miami Washington, Philly or Milwaukee hit paydirt, then possibly for the foreseeable future Isaiah Thomas the star player was fun while it lasted. Now that star is about to be the next in a line that has claimed many others, to cross the threshold of the basketball black hole known as LeBron James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said: Now not only do you give up IT for basically the same kind of player in Kyrie, but you lose valuable glue guys like Crowder, along with Bradley and Olynyk already. I don't see how Boston is set up for the future or short term. To me, empty top picks are nothing but boogers on the wall, and Ainge has already proven that he can be kind of stupid when it comes to having many of these. The East is a total mystery beyond the Cavs, at this point. Who knows what the hell will happen, but the Celtics seem destined to be bridesmaids for another year at least, and if Miami Washington, Philly or Milwaukee hit paydirt, then possibly for the foreseeable future Isaiah Thomas the star player was fun while it lasted. Now that star is about to be the next in a line that has claimed many others, to cross the threshold of the basketball black hole known as LeBron James Isiah Thomas has basically had one transcendent season. He is 5'8", 29 years old, and coming off a pretty serious hip injury. He is also on the last year of his deal. Ainge was in a position where he was going to be forced to give a max deal to a tiny 30 year-player that everyone on Earth knows you cannot give a max deal to. The Cavs made a very good deal. But this time next year, there is a very real chance that there team is going to be Kevin Love and whoever they take with the #3 or #4 pick. I know Wizards fans are traumatized by Kelly Olynyk, but he was a 20 minute per game guy. When he retires, the first line of the story about his retirement is going to be Game 7. And he's the kind of guy that Ainge has always been able to get and Stephens has always been able to use properly. The Celtics did it with mirrors last year. That roster wasn't going anywhere. It couldn't even compete with the Cavs in a series. It was not as good as the Wizards to be honest. I don't think this team will go to the Finals this year. But it's pretty well set for the 4 years after that (assuming Kyrie signs an extension in two years which seems very possible). I think people get totally overly enamored by draft picks. The Suns would not trade Josh Jackson for Kyrie. But if the deal before the draft was their pick for Kyrie, they would have jumped on it. The Celtics aren't exactly out of assets either. They still have all their picks going forward. They still have a potential lottery pick with that Lakers pick next year if it falls 2-5. If that pick is not 2-5, they either have a Sixers or Kings pick in 2019. In other words, there's a really good chance that they have a lottery pick in either 2018 or 2019. They still have a protected Grizzlies' first round pick, which becomes unprotected in 2021. They still have a protected Clippers' first round pick. Edited August 25, 2017 by Lombardi's_kid_brother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 That sounds WAY to hopeful. I want them to feel hopeless. A dark void of infinity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 8 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said: That sounds WAY to hopeful. I want them to feel hopeless. A dark void of infinity Would you want a 31 year old Isiah with three years left on a max deal? Yes or No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 It's not dumping Isaiah that I have an issue with. Like I said, i expected something to happen earlier. It's just who they dumped him for, and who i thought would've made better sense to dump him for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, justice98 said: Boston is still sitting on wad of future picks. Yes, most of the best ones are gone/used. But the Lakers are still gonna stink next year and they have their top-1 protected pick. This isn't quite true. Boston only gets the Lakers pick if it is 2, 3, 4, or 5. Any other place, it belongs to the Sixers. If the Celtics don't get that pick, then they get the better pick of the Sixers or the Kings (which belongs unprotected to the Sixers) pick in 2019, unless one of them is #1, in which case they 2nd best pick. It would be funny to see the Sixers have a #1 in 2018 and 2019 and the Celtics get stuck with a Sixers picks in the 20s (assuming their players are healthy) in 2019. Edited August 25, 2017 by PeterMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Do Itch Big Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Let's be honest, it doesn't matter. The Warriors are going to dominate the league. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 54 minutes ago, Dr. Do Itch Big said: Let's be honest, it doesn't matter. The Warriors are going to dominate the league. What if Klay Thompson leaves next summer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Dr. Do Itch Big said: Let's be honest, it doesn't matter. The Warriors are going to dominate the league. The Celtics, I think, are trying to figure out a way to be the premier team in the East after Lebron leaves Cleveland. The play (and it's the right one) is win the East and hope that you can get lucky against the Warriors. (Though the Boston window is fairly wide if they can get Irving to sign). I've said this repeatedly. Until the Heyward signing, the last big name Free Agent that Boston signed was a half-dead Dominique Wilkins. Players on the open market just do not go to Boston. (And black stars still seem uncomfortable going there under any circumstance since everyone from Russell to Pierce has a Boston horror story). Unless that Nets' pick is Tim Duncan, Hakeem, or Michael Jordan.....it ultimately wasn't going to get them what they wanted. 8 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: What if Klay Thompson leaves next summer? Does he have a player option? Because he is signed through 2019. The Warriors have their big pieces in place through 2019 - so two more seasons. After that, they have Steph and Draymond locked down for a while. Javale McGhee is going to get two more rings at least. Edited August 25, 2017 by Lombardi's_kid_brother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRAVEONAWARPATH Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Right. You can never trust dudes that have a mind like a labyrinth when it comes to stuff like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 1 hour ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said: Does he have a player option? Because he is signed through 2019. Oh yeah, that's right. They're going to threepeat. Durant's got a player option for next year. I didn't realize that. He's LeBroning them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 1 hour ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said: The Celtics, I think, are trying to figure out a way to be the premier team in the East after Lebron leaves Cleveland. The play (and it's the right one) is win the East and hope that you can get lucky against the Warriors. (Though the Boston window is fairly wide if they can get Irving to sign). I've said this repeatedly. Until the Heyward signing, the last big name Free Agent that Boston signed was a half-dead Dominique Wilkins. Players on the open market just do not go to Boston. (And black stars still seem uncomfortable going there under any circumstance since everyone from Russell to Pierce has a Boston horror story). Unless that Nets' pick is Tim Duncan, Hakeem, or Michael Jordan.....it ultimately wasn't going to get them what they wanted. Kyrie Irving isn't signed long term. Let's say the natural outcome of a Celtics backslide happens this year and things start getting negative. Irving spends some time injured and he doesn't make All NBA and doesn't qualify for the DPVE. How much faith would you have in Boston's ability to keep him? Boston wasn't one of his four preferred destinations, and if they aren't good this year than they are going to have a Hell of a time beating offers from Minny or San Antonio. Or even Miami or New York. If Irving walks at the end of his deal, this trade will be an unqualified disaster that will likely cost Ainge his job. But let's say he stays: Gordon Hayward + Kyrie Irving + Al Horford seems like such a low upside big 3 to hang your hat on after receiving a franchise altering haul from Brooklyn. I would absolutely rather have John Wall + Bradley Beal + Otto Porter as a max trio for near term contention if LeBron leaves the conference. And as a long term foundation that gets out of this five year window entirely, I'd rather have Giannis or Fultz + Simmons/Embiid. Cleveland's return for a disgruntled player that was sure to walk in 2019 was incredible. Brooklyn has, by far, the worst roster in the league this season. Cleveland's getting a top three pick with the best odds for #1 in a year with a transcendent prospect. PLUS they got the players to get them back to the Finals again this season. Plus they got a nice little draft and stash big who could perhaps turn into the next Zubac. It was a nonsensical haul that set Cleveland up for a rapid and respectable post-LeBron rebuild, saved them a ton of money, and also probably helped their chances of keeping him. They have assets and future money now. What if they turn back around and use Thomas and/or the pick to trade for Chris Paul? Does Houston say no? There is far too much of a chance that the Celtics screwed the Eastern conference over by rescuing Cleveland from a horrible situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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