Going Commando Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 We need a way to incentivize professional coaching at the youth level. We need a way to incentivize winning and development in youth coaching rather than recruiting and showcasing high end individual talent. Our incentives go 1 - make connections to agents and recruiters, 2 - showcase talent............... 3 - learn the team game and actually win. The NCAA is holding us back. Insisting upon the appearance of amateurism creates amateurism in coaching and development and our youth system is this byzantine, unprofessional, and ad hoc web of programs that provide zero continuity for young players on an NBA track. Getting six months of Coach K coaching doesn't do anything for these young players. They should be benefiting from years of consistent and professional coaching before they reach the NBA. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 39 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Bad coaching and high levels of participation go hand in hand though. I can't see how you can facilitate very high levels of participation in a country like ours without very low standards of professionalism in youth coaching. We need a new system of youth basketball, but we're not going to be able to copy European models because our country is too big and decentralized. We're going to have to figure out something novel. We get away with it, or got away with it, because no other nation can produce elite athletes like the US. But in 2019, many of the best young players in the NBA are not American. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 5 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said: We get away with it, or got away with it, because no other nation can produce elite athletes like the US. But in 2019, many of the best young players in the NBA are not American. If the US wants help their home grown talent I think they have to let their pro teams scout and develop youth. Like a kids DLeague. AAU and NCAA are too concerned with winning and promoting their own programs. Developing a kid into a professional is a secondary consideration. Top talent would be better served with professional level coaches that don't really care about winning tournaments as much as they do turning raw athletes into well rounded and highly skilled basketball players. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 8 minutes ago, Destino said: If the US wants help their home grown talent I think they have to let their pro teams scout and develop youth. Like a kids DLeague. AAU and NCAA are too concerned with winning and promoting their own programs. Developing a kid into a professional is a secondary consideration. Top talent would be better served with professional level coaches that don't really care about winning tournaments as much as they do turning raw athletes into well rounded and highly skilled basketball players. Incentivizing winning their competitions isn't the issue with lower level American basketball. Winning and learning the team game go hand in hand when we're talking about a high level of competition. I would imagine winning is highly incentivized in European youth basketball too, as it's probably how coaches get and keep jobs and get promotions. A bigger issue with American ball is that the real incentive for coaches and players is promoting top young players and developing connections to agents and recruiters, and there is no stability or continuity in their actual development. Think of how many different coaches the top recruits tend to play for before they get to the NBA. Tons of AAU and youth coaches, multiple high school coaches for many, and usually less than a year of college. I would guess that the average NBA track player plays for way more coaches than the average Euro player by age 19 and it's a major problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 48 minutes ago, Destino said: If the US wants help their home grown talent I think they have to let their pro teams scout and develop youth. Like a kids DLeague. AAU and NCAA are too concerned with winning and promoting their own programs. Developing a kid into a professional is a secondary consideration. Top talent would be better served with professional level coaches that don't really care about winning tournaments as much as they do turning raw athletes into well rounded and highly skilled basketball players. This is what they do around the world. The NBA will never do it because of the cost and the NCAA. 37 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: I would imagine winning is highly incentivized in European youth basketball too I’m going to assume they follow the same template as soccer in Europe. They don’t care about winning in youth soccer either. They only care about coaching proper technique. The other thing is the best coaches work with the youth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 15 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said: I’m going to assume they follow the same template as soccer in Europe. They don’t care about winning in youth soccer either. They only care about coaching proper technique. The other thing is the best coaches work with the youth. How do their youth coaches get their jobs and distinguish themselves though? How do they fund their programs? How do they innovate the game if not through competition? And wouldn't the development of proper skills in basketball lead directly to winning competitions? I don't think taking the competitive element out of youth basketball is the right path. It's what makes the game fun to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 14 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: How do their youth coaches get their jobs and distinguish themselves though? How do they fund their programs? How do they innovate the game if not through competition? And wouldn't the development of proper skills in basketball lead directly to winning competitions? I don't think taking the competitive element out of youth basketball is the right path. It's what makes the game fun to play. It’s about producing professionals. If you produce pros, especially for your team, then you are doing a good job. If you incentivize winning, you are going to do your best to win and ignore player development. Player transfers fund training. If one player produces a fee for the club, it can pay for the program for a while. This is about Ajax’s youth development program https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/inside-ajax-how-become-worlds-greatest-talent-factory Another one about revenues https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/13/football/ajax-youth-academy-spt-intl/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 5 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said: It’s about producing professionals. If you produce pros, especially for your team, then you are doing a good job. If you incentivize winning, you are going to do your best to win and ignore player development. How do the coaches get players into their systems/teams? Is it a regional thing where everyone from a certain area automatically ends up in your program? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 22 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: I don't think taking the competitive element out of youth basketball is the right path. It's what makes the game fun to play. I’m going to disagree here. Basketball is a fun sport to play. Some of my favorite games were just me and my brehs taking shots and doing whatever without a thought of the score. You are supposed to enjoy it first. Then you get competitive. 2 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: How do the coaches get players into their systems/teams? Is it a regional thing where everyone from a certain area automatically ends up in your program? By being good and getting promoted. And the younger players are mostly in an area around the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said: I’m going to disagree here. Basketball is a fun sport to play. Some of my favorite games were just me and my brehs taking shots and doing whatever without a thought of the score. You are supposed to enjoy it first. Then you get competitive. It was the other way around for me. I didn't enjoy doing drills and most of practice but loved scrimmages and games. There can be pleasure in mastering new skills, but the performance with stakes is what was the most fun for me and it's what motivated me to slog through practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Incentivizing winning their competitions isn't the issue with lower level American basketball. Winning and learning the team game go hand in hand when we're talking about a high level of competition. I would imagine winning is highly incentivized in European youth basketball too, as it's probably how coaches get and keep jobs and get promotions. Here’s the problem with that. The priorities for a coach that isn’t going to have a player very long, and needs to win now, are going to be to find at what he does well and focus on that. He can’t have a kid doing what he does worst costing him games and damaging his reputation. A coach looking to develop a pro several years down the line is going to be more inclined to coach up weaknesses. He won’t want his prospect to have gaping holes in his game that could potentially scare away contract offers and damage his program’s reputation. In both instances the kid is going to play games and compete. What the coaches ask of them and what they work on in practice is the difference. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, Destino said: Here’s the problem with that. The priorities for a coach that isn’t going to have a player very long and needs to win now are going to be to find at what he does well and focus on that. He can’t have a kid doing what he does worst costing him games and damaging his reputation. A coach looking to develop a pro several years down the line is going to be more inclined to coach up weaknesses. He won’t want his prospect to have gaping holes in his game that could potentially scare away contract offers and damage his program’s reputation. In both instances the kid is going to play games and compete. What the coaches ask of them and what they work on in practice is the difference. To me there is a straightforward solution to that problem: continuity. If a coach can work with a player throughout their development years, then he will then have a very strong incentive to teach him well. You can have prestigious competition to motivate the system and perhaps draw in viewers that bring in dollars but still emphasize development under that circumstance. I think we still get some of that through the NCAA with the few programs that maybe don't play the elite recruiting game well but tend to coach up lesser recruits and win at the NCAA level and send them off to the NBA, at least as a role player. In most cases, those kids are in their college programs for several years. But imagine if a Tony Bennett or a Jay Wright could start teaching recruits at like 12 or 13 and coach them for 6+ years instead of two or three. They could make huge strides. Some of these kids who are truly special athletes could end up becoming much greater NBA players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 16 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: It was the other way around for me. I didn't enjoy doing drills and most of practice but loved scrimmages and games. There can be pleasure in mastering new skills, but the performance with stakes is what was the most fun for me and it's what motivated me to slog through practice. But a coach may not allow you to master the new skill because they need to win. A coach who is only into developing professionals will let you work out the kinks and try new things. That’s what we see. But beyond that, players aren’t learning the game well here. And I didn’t love drills either. I said I liked to just play the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 5 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said: But a coach may not allow you to master the new skill because they need to win. A coach who is only into developing professionals will let you work out the kinks and try new things. That’s what we see. But beyond that, players aren’t learning the game well here. And I didn’t love drills either. I said I liked to just play the game. According to the article about Ajax's transfer fee system, they still lose ground to richer clubs and can't really compete with them despite their excellence at teaching players because they have to continuously sell their players off for funding. I'm not crazy about that model and question whether it would be good for the NBA. What would be the point of being a fan of the Wizards or Hornets or Timberwolves, etc. if every time we got a player that could help us win we had to sell him to a rich team? When you don't honestly compete, you're never going to be able to build a fanbase and then you just become increasingly reliant on being a productive farm system for the real competitors. That is a bad cycle too. I would much rather have dynamic, balanced competition with a diffusion of strong franchises. There has to be a balance of teaching + prestigious competition that can generate its own revenue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abdcskins Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 The Olympics are what matter. If we lose that then I'll get worried. Our best players should show up for that. I thought this team had enough talent to win. Injuries hurt. Can't win everything. Credit to France and Serbia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said: According to the article about Ajax's transfer fee system, they still lose ground to richer clubs and can't really compete with them despite their excellence at teaching players because they have to continuously sell their players off for funding. Yeah, they aren’t a rich club. They found their lane and develop players for richer clubs to buy, thus funding a new generation. 1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said: I'm not crazy about that model and question whether it would be good for the NBA. What would be the point of being a fan of the Wizards or Hornets or Timberwolves, etc. if every time we got a player that could help us win we had to sell him to a rich team? When you don't honestly compete, you're never going to be able to build a fanbase and then you just become increasingly reliant on being a productive farm system for the real competitors. That is a bad cycle too. I would much rather have dynamic, balanced competition with a diffusion of strong franchises. There has to be a balance of teaching + prestigious competition that can generate its own revenue. You are reading the article too literal. The point is they are producing professional players. Players that are helping their team. The conversation started with how youth coaching is failing American basketball players. American sports will not allow for a European scheme that involves transfer fees and promotion/relegation. But we can implement youth basketball players being coached by a skilled professional coach instead of the ninth grade algebra teacher or a drug dealer in AAU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 Boban isn't letting go of that ball no matter what. https://deadspin.com/big-boban-engulfs-donovan-mitchell-on-jump-ball-1838075021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillUnknown Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 I mean i guess he has to say something, but as far as threats go, thats pretty empty 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 17 minutes ago, StillUnknown said: I mean i guess he has to say something, but as far as threats go, thats pretty empty Ya, what's he gonna do, stop the people that bailed from playing? I'm not mad the rest if the world is catching up to us, is that a bad thing outside of it being more competitive? I agree with re-evaluating how we deal with youth sports, but I'm not mad if we lose especially if our best players arent out there. If they world passes us in NBA level talent, I can see positives and negatives to that, especially if it means they might stay in their countries as international leagues become better and more competitive. Could you imagine if an agreement was made that the NBA champs would go in a tournament with other league champs? I'd watch that strictly out of curiosity if the test of the world really did catch up to us, not interested in blowouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 17 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: Ya, what's he gonna do, stop the people that bailed from playing? Yeah I think he needs them more than they need him. I'm not happy about getting passed by Europe in basketball. I don't discriminate against international players in the NBA and it's fun rooting for them on the Wizards. But I pull for Americans in international competition. Winning international competition is a matter of national pride. I don't think it'll be good for the NBA when international players are all of the best and biggest stars, but we're like five years away from that being reality. The NBA is an American league with an iconic American culture. I don't really care for soccer and don't want to see the NBA become like soccer in culture. And the day the league stops attracting the best players in the world is the beginning of the end for the NBA's quality and level of competition, but we're a very long way from that becoming a reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Yeah I think he needs them more than they need him. I'm not happy about getting passed by Europe in basketball. I don't discriminate against international players in the NBA and it's fun rooting for them on the Wizards. But I pull for Americans in international competition. Winning international competition is a matter of national pride. I don't think it'll be good for the NBA when international players are all of the best and biggest stars, but we're like five years away from that being reality. The NBA is an American league with an iconic American culture. I don't really care for soccer and don't want to see the NBA become like soccer in culture. And the day the league stops attracting the best players in the world is the beginning of the end for the NBA's quality and level of competition, but we're a very long way from that becoming a reality. I feel you, competitively, I wouldn't be happy if we couldn't compete with overseas players, that's different then them catching up. Would it be different if international leagues caught up to the NBA? I mean, ya'll have just explained how this is inevitable, I'm not sure how to react to that yet. I want the competition, you learn more about yourself when you lose then when you win, but I don't want to get left behind. Edited September 13, 2019 by Renegade7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 I dunno, guess im all 'Murica'd out these days to care anymore... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 Quote Brooklyn Nets point guard Kyrie Irving suffered a left-side facial fracture when he was elbowed in the face at the team's practice facility Tuesday, the team announced Wednesday. The Nets said Irving is day-to-day with the injury. Irving was sent to the hospital for evaluation after being injured during a pickup game. https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27700086/nets-irving-suffers-facial-fracture-pickup-game Mr. Glass is getting a head start on the injuries this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillUnknown Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 apparently LaMelo is doing pretty well overseas. draft folk saying he could go #1 overall next draft too bad Lavar fumbled his bag, he had something brewing and couldn't get out of his own damn way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 1 hour ago, StillUnknown said: apparently LaMelo is doing pretty well overseas. draft folk saying he could go #1 overall next draft too bad Lavar fumbled his bag, he had something brewing and couldn't get out of his own damn way Apparently the shoes were garbage too. His son admitted those over priced shoes were garbage and he had to change them mid game to avoid them falling apart. He got the business model backwards. Selling cheap garbage at outrageously high prices is what brands are supposed to do after they make it big. It makes the share holders happy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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