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Execution56

Would you trade Fred Davis to Patriots for a 3rd or 4th round pick?

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The Patriots always have always drafted players to replace stars when they leave or get injured. This is done years in advanced so when its time for them to step up and show there stuff they're well prepared.

The Pats aren't going to give up a lot if anything to replace Hernandez.

They aren't as great at that as you think. Their draft history has shown they miss so much more than they hit and have had to rely more on acquiring veterans to take the place of the guy they traded away. You'd think with all the picks they've gotten over the years they would have won 3 more SBs by now.

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The Patriots always have always drafted players to replace stars when they leave or get injured. This is done years in advanced so when its time for them to step up and show there stuff they're well prepared.

The Pats aren't going to give up a lot if anything to replace Hernandez.

They aren't as great at that as you think. Their draft history has shown they miss so much more than they hit and have had to rely more on acquiring veterans to take the place of the guy they traded away. You'd think with all the picks they've gotten over the years they would have won 3 more SBs by now.

 

That's what I've been trying to say.

 

Brady creates the illusion that they've been doing great, but by and large the players they pick fail

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only way we should entertain this idea is only if someone is willing to significantly overpay for Davis... 

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In summary, we are 9-19 with Fred Davis as a starter and 10-11 with someone else playing (8-7 when it's Davis' backup, Paulsen).

 

None of the stats you provided really tell the entire story and I don't like to lean on stats anyway. Advanced metrics are what lead to articles last year saying Luck is a better runner than RG3. I think the stats you listed if anything, show how much better and in rhythm the rest of the offense happened to be during the 7 game when streak when Paulsen was playing. That is to say, if Davis were there we would have been just as good if not better and he would compare more favorably. 

 

If you're being objective, open and your eyes and see that Davis is much better player than Paulsen. Paulsen is solid across the board no doubt but he doesn't threaten a defense nor is he dangerous after the catch. In the passing game as a weapon for our offense, there is no comparison. Anyone that watches the two can see that. Davis has also improved his blocking a lot so there isn't the huge gap between the two many think there is. 

 

But since you brought up the records too, clearly Paulsen becoming the starter was the catalyst for our 7 game win streak and Davis being the main factor for losing records of teams with Grossman and Beck at QB I can see why everyone is so quick to trade him.

 

Regarding his injury, that article and statistics are kind of dated. They went from 1997-2002 and then did another study from 08-09. It doesn't seem like it encompasses modern medical advances in the former and in the latter is too small a sample size. The bottom line is it really depends on the player. Just in case though, there is this article regarding his improved recovery.

 

http://www.realredskins.com/rich-tandlers-real-redsk/2013/06/need-to-know-medical-advances-aid-davis-recovery.html

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I was one of the "trade Cooley" people. i won't say I was the first, but I got yelled at for it for a long time here on the board  ;)

 

And the reason was the Pats model I wrote of on the last page..   you can get value for a guy like Chris if you strike at the right time, who as we saw, declined fairly rapidly.

 

In this era, you simply cannot be too attached to very many players,, and typically, a TE, fan favorite or not, great guy or not, great Redskin he is, is not a make-or-break position. If you dangle him at the right time, you can cash in and roll it into the future.

 

This is the mindset that consistent winners have in the modern era of football.

Think about how many times the Pats or Steelers or eagles let a guy walk or traded a guy and made you say "WTF?" Richard Seymour is a great player! Why trade him now in his prime?"

because they had his replacement, and while he wasn't AS good, he was sufficient, and they got a first round pick out of it.

The Steelers seem to have no problem replacing GREAT linebackers who go elsewhere and are not so great.

 

How many players on this roster are truly un-tradeable?

off the top of my head: RG3, obviously,, Ryan Kerrigan, Trent Williams, ....  and..  ?

Well, Fletcher, simply because we don't have anyone behind him to step in yet. No one will trade much for a player of his age anyway, so we lose nothing by remaining loyal.

Garcon, I think he's a gamebreaker. Santana,, again, age means no one is calling ,and he's earned the loyalty like Fletcher has.  (VIVA SANTANA. of all the veteran guys on our squad currently, he should be seriously considered for our Ring of Fame.. he deserves it.)

Morris is a nice surprise, but truly, we know Shanahan has the reputation of finding running backs,, there's no reason to believe he can't do it again, or hasn't done it already with the guys we picked up this offseason.

If the right offer came up, pretty much every other veteran should be considered.

 

~Bang

 

You would be willing to trade Orakpo over Kerrigan?  Money aside.. look how pedestrian our pass rush was without him.  Do you think that RJax is good enough to warrant a drop off like that for a draft pick? (This is not to say that I don't think RJax was horrible; a pleasant surprise indeed in pass coverage)

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Also, Bang, I was reading some interesting stuff and it seems that Barry Cofield is essentially the best 3-4 NT in the game by a wide margin.  I found that surprising, but really interesting.  You would consider him dispensable?

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The idea of trading Fred Davis is not only an absurd one, it's simply not rational either. Fred Davis was RGIII favorite target before he got hurt. Now, it will remain to be seen if Davis can return to his skill level again, however, the biggest thing most of those arguing for his trade forget.

Fred Davis wants to be here, just like so many other players here or not. Players and fans know readily just how special RGIII is and will be for this team and the NFL for years to come.

 

Instead of thinking about what we could have let's try to keep it real and know what we already have here. What is that??

 

An incredibly deep and young pool of super talented players, let's not forget some of the great players that couldn't wait to get away from D.C. when it was the Vinny dumbass show. Or when we paid for Baked Alaska dessert and ended up with a chocolate covered sorpion.

 

Not only do I fully trust the FO of this current administration, I believe that this team is now reached an impenetrable trust in itself for once in a very very long time. I know this well as I have been a fan of this team since George Allen came to Washington, I was just about to get out of grade school then. So a long time.

 

My prediction is that with a recovered Davis, along with Logan Paulsen and Reed this team is going to simply crush the rest of the league not just our division. With the draft that we had this last draft our offense is going to be running on Nitros and I for one can't wait to see it.

 

HTTR.

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You would be willing to trade Orakpo over Kerrigan?  Money aside.. look how pedestrian our pass rush was without him.  Do you think that RJax is good enough to warrant a drop off like that for a draft pick? (This is not to say that I don't think RJax was horrible; a pleasant surprise indeed in pass coverage)

I never said who i would be WILLING to trade, i just said who I would NOT be willing to trade.

 

But then I also said later that any trade of starters at our present stage of the build leaves us with a hole that would need to be filled by outside means, or a backup who isn't ready. We're simply not ready to go entertaining offers of this type yet.

but the fact is, we've played a lot of games without Orakpo already, and our pass rush with him isn't all that much better to get starry eyed over. The guy makes for a somewhat disruptive force, but he does not get the hits on the QB that we drafted him to do. Those need to improve, and they need to improve this year. Right now he's not feared, he's single teamed most of the time, and he can't get off it.

Last year our team recorded 9 fewer sacks than in 2011, which is the exact number of sacks rak had in 11.

So while 9 more sacks is nice, it's not 13th pick in the draft nice given he's niot playing on one of the new draft style contracts. We're not getting the value yet, and assuming his contract is normally written, it'll start being very expensive soon.

Rak needs to be a beast. he needs to thump some quarterbacks this year, start to play like DeMarcus ware, which is what we brought him here to do.

 

And when I say who i consider trade-able (which is about 48 of our 53), it doesn't mean I think they're all dump-able. Some of them would require a sweet offer, and Orakpo would be one of them.

But if the offer came up, you have to consider it.

 

And i am not down on Orakpo, i'm just not blown away to the point where i consider him irreplaceable.

I'll take those 9 sacks back. Get him on the field and do it, I say.

But...   after his injury again last year, i do recall some very pessimistic diagnoses on how much it'll ever be able to heal. I'm rather concerned.

 

~Bang

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I cringe whenever someone says we drafted Rak to be our DeMarcus Ware.

 

We drafted him because he was the best player available at the 13th pick and even Vinny wasn't that big an idiot to pass him up.

(And here comes the part where everyone tells me about all the players drafted after Rak that were actually the best player available in hindsight.)

 

 

Guys like Rak, like Fred, those guys are building block pieces. Foundation young players who, despite some injury worries, are just entering the prime of their careers. Players who are greater value to us now, than an unknown factor down the line.

 

 

When I say we have the ability to win a championship NOW, I don't meant that the door is rapidly closing and it will slam shut if we trade this player this year. What I mean is we just kicked the ****ing door in, and I want to go to battle every week with as much ammunition as possible, for as long as possible. 

 

 

And what I mean is, let's let our players play out their contracts, and if they play well, let's reward them with fair contracts, and if they don't, we can move on. Our front office has shown that even with limited resources we still, somehow keep managing to improve our football team.

 

 

Vinny and Gibbs so thoroughly abused the hell out of draft picks and we were always scratching and scraping for them that people swear up and down tat we constantly need more more more. And more draft picks is always better than less, for sure.

 

 

On the whole, organizations do not part with young players on the last year of their deal unless 1.) they're demanding big money, and 2.) they are huge locker room and organizational headaches. Guys like Percy Harvin and Santonio Holmes got traded because they were kind of a-holes

 

 

Teams like the Patriots trade away players when they hit 30, (or they do because veterans have the balls to ask for money, unless you're Aaron Hernandez and Rob Gronkowski who got monster contracts after 2 years because of reasons) replace them with waiver wire pick-ups and vets who are arguably worse than the ones the cut/trade, and then they ride Brady's arm to the playoffs and the coach gets called a genius.

 

(I really don't like Bill Belichick...)

 

 

The question is "Would you trade Fred Davis to the Patriots for a 3rd or 4th round pick?". I say...well first, the Patriots wouldn't give that up, they'll just wait until cuts at the end of preseason and pull some tight ends off the scrap heap. But second, I'd still probably still say no, because I'd much rather a guy like Fred Davis help my quarterback make a championship run, then help Tom Brady.

 

 

And I say that with full knowledge that the offense did fine without him. I still want to give my franchise quarterback as many weapons as possible now. Keep Fred, let Jordan Reed develop beside him, and then next year, if Fred doesn't live up to his potential, he can go, Reed will be trained up, we'll still have Logan, and the chances of having to spend another pick on a draft pick on another tight end are much smaller.

 


And if he plays well, pay him fairly. If he wants more than he's worth, let him go, but he owes Bruce Allen a favor so I'd expect him to take a discount. We have cap room next year to re-sign both Davis and Rak and Bruce and Eric Shaffer have done wonders massaging the cap.

 

 

Brady's gonna be fine throwing to whatever they put out there. 

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My prediction is that with a recovered Davis, along with Logan Paulsen and Reed this team is going to simply crush the rest of the league not just our division. With the draft that we had this last draft our offense is going to be running on Nitros and I for one can't wait to see it.

 

HTTR

 

AGREE COMPLETELY ON THIS ONE.

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Well, cringe away, the sort of production Ware puts out is what we want out of Orakpo. A disrupter that hits the QB.

 

~Bang

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Well, cringe away, the sort of production Ware puts out is what we want out of Orakpo. A disrupter that hits the QB.

 

~Bang

 

What most people want is for him to have a ****ton of sacks. He disrupts and hits the quarterback plenty, but since it doesn't show up in the sacks column, people have a lower opinion of him. Which has been repeatedly pointed out by football minds far better than mine as not the best way to judge a pass rusher, but people tend not to care because sacks are pretty.

 

Not to turn this into another Orakpo thread, but if he'd had 10 sacks in 2011 instead of 9, I think 2/3 of the argument against the guy would disappear. He had the bad luck of getting drafted to a division with one of the best pass rushers of all time and he's always going to be compared to him whether it's fair or not.

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I'm not arguing against him.

I just said he isn't on my hypothetical untrade-able list, and why.

 

~Bang

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Which has been repeatedly pointed out by football minds far better than mine as not the best way to judge a pass rusher, but people tend not to care because sacks are pretty.

 

Sacks most certainly are pretty.

 

I don't even have anyone on my untradeable list, I just have unreasonably high prices for key pieces.

 

For example, I'd move Riley, but for nothing lower than the 32nd pick.  I'd move Silverback, but only for at least two 1sts.  Heck, I'd move RGIII if you were willing to hand us five 1st rounders and three 2nd rounders.

 

Any teams want to do that?  No?  Didn't think so.

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Which has been repeatedly pointed out by football minds far better than mine as not the best way to judge a pass rusher, but people tend not to care because sacks are pretty.

 

Sacks most certainly are pretty.

 

I don't even have anyone on my untradeable list, I just have unreasonably high prices for key pieces.

 

For example, I'd move Riley, but for nothing lower than the 32nd pick.  I'd move Silverback, but only for at least two 1sts.  Heck, I'd move RGIII if you were willing to hand us five 1st rounders and three 2nd rounders.

 

Any teams want to do that?  No?  Didn't think so.

 

I wouldn't.

 

RG3 has a realistic chance of being one of the best QBs the game has ever seen. That is insanely rare to have on a team. Draft picks are not the goal...the player we get with the draft pick is the goal. We met our goal, and then some...why start over?

 

A 23 year old franchise/portential HOF QB in the hand is worth five question mark 1st round players in the bush.

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