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The Official ES All Things Redskins Name Change Thread (Reboot Edition---Read New OP)


Alaskins

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I'll give credit to WaPo for doing this in a professional manner. Happy to see results, because frankly, you want to see what you felt to be real reinforced. There's also that whole schadenfreude thing going on to ;)

 

But, is it me, or does anyone else think 'Professor' was UnWise Mike. The tweet someone posted seemed very similar to some of his statements in this thread. Just saying...

 

Hail to the Redskins!!!!!

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Because for her and so many others the issue was never about Native Americans, it was about creating a cause for a poor minority group just so they could say they were fighting for a cause. It's a liberal wet dream. They're current stances show it's always been about themselves and never truly been about Native Americans. It's pathetic.

 

Sadly, for many people that's their motivation for helping anyone. They want to "help" because it gives them a feeling of superiority over those they help as well as those they see as not helping. Then they take turns falling over themselves bragging about how much they are helping some poor cause who can't do anything without them. It's even worse when they aren't even helping but instead just walking around acting like they care or acting like they are offended on their behalf. It's been the same story for many years. The causes change. The people change. Unfortunately, the selfish attitude of people who act like this never does.

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I'll give credit to WaPo for doing this in a professional manner. Happy to see results, because frankly, you want to see what you felt to be real reinforced. There's also that whole schadenfreude thing going on to ;)

But, is it me, or does anyone else think 'Professor' was UnWise Mike. The tweet someone posted seemed very similar to some of his statements in this thread. Just saying...

Hail to the Redskins!!!!!

I thought it was him as well. As probably one of only a couple redskins fans who supports the name that he hasn't blocked yet I still interact with him occasionally. I've always been respectful during our conversations on Twitter and can honestly say he's been the same towards me. With that said, the way professor started to insult people's intelligence is exactly the way Mike behaves towards redskins fans who antagonize him. I'd be shocked if it wasn't him.

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But we have already established that he name has roots in a non-offensive context.

 

So if 100% of Native Americans polled in 100 years say they are offended, then we know this is a made up offense. It's contrived.

 

So?

I am not aware of any linguistic law stating that if something was not offensive the day it was created, then it cannot ever be offensive, later.

Or, to turn things around: If I ever support changing the name, it won't be because of some etymological analysis of its origin. It will be because it is offending people, at that time. (And I don't want to be offending people).

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There are not 5M NA's in this country. 

You have to be 25% or more by blood through the mothers bloodline to even be considered NA. 

So as someone who is 50% NA...Only my sisters' bloodline is relevant to future generations. 

My brothers children are not considered NA, nor mine.

I believe your statement would be more accurate, if you replaced "to even be considered NA" with "to be a member of my tribe".

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This whole thing is still tricky. I still dislike "Redskins Fact" from the Snyder team. Would like them to be very simple and clear with their comments moving forward.

 

1. Everybody is entitled to their opinion.

2. We believe the poll to be accurate.

3. We look to help and support all NA's through our reach-out programs for those in need, not just those registered with a specific tribe (and that will be the burn of Harjo/Blackhorse who are claimed authority to decided who and who is not NA.)

4. HTTR

 

and that's it for this year. No comment after that. Let the few others who have been convinced, talk about it this year. If Ms. Harjo and Blackhorse are willing to explain to a bunch of self identified NA's why they aren't. Let that happen. But that's the new disagreement that's coming.

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So?

I am not aware of any linguistic law stating that if something was not offensive the day it was created, then it cannot ever be offensive, later.

Or, to turn things around: If I ever support changing the name, it won't be because of some etymological analysis of its origin. It will be because it is offending people, at that time. (And I don't want to be offending people).

I get that. It's absolutely true that words change meaning over time- maybe even "most" words do, I'd imagine.

I think what tshile is thinking is that redskins is a word that seems to be almost never used anymore except when referring to the football or occasionally, a potato.

The words meaning has effectively changed, I would argue.

That doesn't mean that it couldn't change again to something negative. I'd be surprised if that happened, but it wouldn't be impossible.

And as far as the main actual reasoning being given for offense, that's certainly contrived. (i know it doesn't make a difference to you, but I can't get past it :) )

This whole thing is still tricky. I still dislike "Redskins Fact" from the Snyder team. Would like them to be very simple and clear with their comments moving forward.

.

I haven't seen it for awhile. Curious what don't you like about it?

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I think what tshile is thinking is that redskins is a word that seems to be almost never used anymore except when referring to the football or occasionally, a potato.

Which, IMO, is a very good argument for WHY it's not offensive. (One that I've made, a few years and a few hundred pages ago).

It is not an argument for why, if people ARE offended, we should ignore them.

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And as far as the main actual reasoning being given for offense, that's certainly contrived. (i know it doesn't make a difference to you, but I can't get past it :) )

1). I'm not really sure that it's the "main actual reasoning". (It's possible that it is neither main nor reasoning.)

2). And the fact that that schtick isn't true certainly bothers me.

It bothers me that the media lets people get away with loudly announcing untrue things, for years. It bothers me that there are people who have such little honesty. It bothers me that people can lie that much, and not suffer some form of karma or divine retribution or some such.

I just don't think we can go from "this sound bite that some of you are using, isn't true" to "therefore, the fact that you're offended by our racial-identifier term isn't important".

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I haven't seen it for awhile. Curious what don't you like about it?

 

Because I feel it's not that different to how Wise/King/Costas are telling NA's how they should be offended. But the other way around. If you already have 9 out of 10. Why are you spending time to convince people who seem pretty steady in their beliefs of what they already believe? Take all the resources and time/effort from this. Create orgs that are helping support all NA's regardless of if they are recognized by Harjo. Actually make an effort to not have it broadcasted as something via the team. Let others figure it out. If people want to say this is buying off support for white guilt. Just shrug and say "We care about this cause. We haven't taken victory laps for it. We believe that some people need help regardless of their membership with a specific tribe and will continue to do this."

 

End of the day, it does have a bigger impact than protesting.

 

I actually feel like if at every game you had stands set up for donating like they do a few times a year for toys for tots, or cellphones for the military. You'd collect a lot from Skins fans for NAs. But again ,it would be called white guilt even if its not. 

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. Why are you spending time to convince people who seem pretty steady in their beliefs of what they already believe? Take all the resources and time/effort from this. Create orgs that are helping support all NA's regardless of if they are recognized by Harjo.

Personally, I think redskins facts is probably somewhat helpful - not necessarily to people who are familiar with them already, but to those who aren't.

Alot of us have come to our opinions because of the facts, yet there are still alot of people who are ignorant about many of them. Such as, the origin story that gets repeated, unchecked, for so long, people accept it as fact, or kornheiser saying how 'shocked' he was about the polling results, seemingly unaware of the exact same results 12 years ago (or buying into reasons to ignore those results, which is happening again, and is another example of people's lack of familiarity with how polls are done).

I feel like alot if the 'controversy' is due to people's ignorance- combined with white guilt over colonialism, etc, no question. Or stories of small pox blankets, almost certainly false.

Absolutely agree with the second part about supporting native Americans. The team does this, but I'm not sure to what extent. Probably because any publicity about it would be seen as self serving as opposed to genuine. They can't win, really. So, anything done must be kept quiet.

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Because I feel it's not that different to how Wise/King/Costas are telling NA's how they should be offended. But the other way around. If you already have 9 out of 10. Why are you spending time to convince people who seem pretty steady in their beliefs of what they already believe?

The Facts list also helps others combat the misinformation that people like Wise, King and Costas puts out...so it's not just a desire to convince those who already agree with them. The Redskins know this is being fought in the minds of the public and not just in the courts.

Take all the resources and time/effort from this. Create orgs that are helping support all NA's regardless of if they are recognized by Harjo.

First, it doesn't require a lot of time or resources to put the information out there. Second, the Redskins already DO create orgs that directly help the NA community, and have done so all along. It's possible to do both at the same time.

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The Facts list also helps others combat the misinformation that people like Wise, King and Costas puts out...so it's not just a desire to convince those who already agree with them. The Redskins know this is being fought in the minds of the public and not just in the courts.

First, it doesn't require a lot of time or resources to put the information out there. Second, the Redskins already DO create orgs that directly help the NA community, and have done so all along. It's possible to do both at the same time.

 

Fair enough. I just felt it came off poorly when they launched it. Kind of like an infomercial. When the truth is that some things that are "as seen on TV" are cool little items. But 90% of them are scams. So, you feel they all are scams.

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Fair enough. I just felt it came off poorly when they launched it. Kind of like an infomercial. When the truth is that some things that are "as seen on TV" are cool little items. But 90% of them are scams. So, you feel they all are scams.

 

The Redskins and Snyder have repeatedly shot themselves in the ass in trying to deal with this issue.  Of course, their bumbling didn't affect the actual numbers.  If Snyder wants the media to shut up about this issue, he needs to stop talking about it completely.

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Ok a couple things jump out at me with this poll, first, only 44% of the people are affiliated with a tribe. I am curious how they determined if the people are NA or not. I don't know how many black women I heard say they had NA in their blood. No you are just regular black. #2 the poll itself said 21% of NA's feel that the word is disrespectful to NA's. How do they get 9 out of 10 when 21% find it disrespectful. If you estimate that there are 5.2 million people with NA blood, then that is over 1 million who are find it disrespectful or 1 in 5. Furthermore 43% of NA's find it to be of some importance. So 2.2 million NA's find it somewhat important. That's nearly half. When compared to other issues that the NA population has, yeah it's not that important, but there is something tied to it. I don't think this poll is the slam dunk that most are claiming.

All you had to do was say you self identify as NA.

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All you had to do was say you self identify as NA.

People who falsely identify as NA are likely more liberal/political in their leanings. If anything, the actual figure for offended is lower if you could control for this. And if you look at the poll details instead of just speculating, you'll see that tribal members are slightly less offended by the name than non-tribal members. This poll crushes any debate on the numbers. Anecdotes will persist.

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Besides, false positives are something that is statistically accounted for in doing these kinds of measures. That's why we look at stand errors, confidence rates, and set significance at a high threshold to be sure that the results are extremely likely to be due to anything other then the thing we're measuring.

 

When you get the kind of data that the Post got it's really powerful. So powerful that it is extremely unlikely that the result could mean anything other than what it says. Yes, it's possible that you had a few bad apples who answered in a way that they hoped would skew the results to their favor. It's also possible that some respondents misunderstood the question and answered incorrectly. There could be history biases as well. However, if you take all that into account and get results like these... which confirm previous results... it's nearly impossible that the results are false.

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http://www.nationalreview.com/article/435625/redskins-doesnt-offend-native-americans-leftists-ignore-them

What a new poll about the Washington Redskins can tell us about 'Social Justice'

if you follow sports even a little, you’d know that one of the principal social-justice issues of the last half decade has been the quest to wipe the ugly stain of racism from the National Football League. The Washington team is named the “Redskins,” and all decent people just know that the term is a horrific and offensive slur, tantamount to the use of the “N word” or similarly grotesque language. It’s triggering, it’s a macroaggression, and it dehumanizes and disrespects Native Americans every time it’s used.

ESPN and CBS allow broadcasters to boycott the use of the name when announcing games, and multiple announcers, writers, and pundits simply refuse to say it. Legislation has been introduced in Congress to force a name change, members of Congress sent a letter to Redskins owner Dan Snyder demanding a name change, and last year a federal judge canceled its trademark registrations on the grounds that the name “may disparage” a “substantial composite of Native Americans and bring them into contempt or disrepute.”

By this point, the conventional wisdom was set: The Redskins were wrong, and only Snyder’s racist stubbornness was blocking social progress. There’s just one small problem with the narrative, however. Someone forgot to tell actual Native Americans to be outraged. A new Washington Post poll finds that only 9 percent of Native Americans find the name offensive. A whopping 90 percent say that they’re not bothered...

There’s consensus, there’s overwhelming consensus, and then there’s near-unanimity. It’s hard for 90 percent of any group of Americans to agree on anything, much less an allegedly contentious racial issue. The verdict is in: Not even Native Americans care about the Washington Redskins’ name.

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Washington Post Poll Shows That Opponents Of The Redskins Name Are Waging A Futile Battle

The Washington Post poll that shows the vast majority of Native Americans aren’t offended by the “Redskins” name may not definitively close the argument around this issue, but it makes it a lot more difficult for opponents of the monicker to plead a reasonable case.

Despite mounting legal and political pressure for the Washington Redskins to change their name, the numbers have consistently shown that the Native American community doesn’t really care about the topic. After surveying 504 Native Americans, the Post found that 90% of them don’t find the name offensive, which is identical to the results from a 2004 Annenberg Public Policy poll. But apparently those statistics are meaningless to some who are on the other side of the debate, including Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.).

Though Reid is correct in some respects –– a federal judge ordered the cancellation of the Redskins’ trademark registrations last July and many Native American advocacy groups still oppose the mascot –– it’s disingenuous for him to ignore the data in front of him....

Though it’s worth noting that 9% of Native Americans told the Post they find the name offensive (1% said they have no opinion), these folks are in the extreme minority. That doesn’t mean their voices shouldn’t continue to be heard, but they must be put into context first.

But that’s not what’s happening here. Over the last several decades, the Redskins name has become another partisan wedge issue. It’s a dangerous zone where facts matter less than talking points and the will of the people is rendered meaningless. The “Change the Mascot” campaign twisted itself in a knot Thursday in its attempt to discount the Post‘s findings.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexreimer/2016/05/20/washington-post-poll-shows-that-opponents-of-the-redskins-name-are-waging-a-futile-battle/#14d9e21c50fa

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