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The Official ES Redskins Name Change Thread---All Things Related to Changing the Team's Name Go Here

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You've defined caring about Native Americans as working regularly on reservations. So, do you work regularly on reservations?

True, he probably does not.  But also true, he is not wrapping himself up in some sort of proud empathy blanket with NAs as some of the proponents of the #changethename think they are.  I think there is some merit to the argument that the Redskins name has become some low hanging fruit for armchair activists to harangue against in order to feel that they have struck a blow against racism in our society.  I would argue that  racism in our society, and not necessarily racism against NAs is at the core of the whole issue. that is why arguments lie "it is just like the N word" or " what if they named the team the Crackers, Darkies, Yellowskins, etc" are so pervasive. 

 

Look, we all know the origin of the term is not racist.  We all know that there is not some concentration of racial antipathy towards NAs in the DMV.  A game at FedEx is nothing like a KKK rally.  Yet some of the rhetoric would have you believe it is.

 

I have thought quite a bit about why there is pervasive NA imagery and references in sports and commercial branding as opposed to all of these other minority groups who it would be "just the same if the name was xxx", yet there are no existing examples of.  The image of NAs refers to a time before the frontier was closed, the limitless possibility of the open land, the freedom to go and explore and live wherever you pleased.  None of the images refer to present day people, they are a nod to our past, to an idea of America's limitless bounty typified by the indigenous people of the land who had the freedom to move about unfettered by property boundaries. 

 

If the opposition made honest arguments against the name being potentially insensitive I think the backlash would be more reasonable.  But we are subjected to tripe like "the name celebrates genocide", "Redskin refers to scalps" and "Redskins fans are racist". No doubt some of us are, as are some fans of all teams, but logic would dictate that if you hated NAs you would probably not want to root for a team named the Redskins. 

 

I am ambivalent about the name change.  I root for the team because it is my home team,  not because of the logo or name, but I do like the NA imagery and would like to see it retained despite the fact that some will work against all "cultural appropriation".  I think cultural appropriation is an important part of how societies have always advanced, check the architecture on the mall for an example.  Get the Patawomecks or some other tribe to endorse the name, make your case with this crack PR department I hear about that is invisible beyond the #Redskinspride debacle, or change it to Braves, Natives or Warriors.  Get a website for the OAF.  Defend the position without resorting to partisan politics.

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There are a lot of things you wouldn't call someone to their face. It depends on context. I wouldn't call an American Indian a Redskin, because you don't. Just like I won't call a large black woman Aunt Jemima.

Now is Aunt Jemima as insensitive as Redskin? I think it can be. We are still talking about a physical trait that cannot be changed, however, it depends on context. I am not arguing that Aunt Jemima offends a small group of people, I am arguing against the 'well you wouldn't call an American Indian a Redskin to their face' statement. No, you wouldn't. It is not even a point to argue.

You say you would not call a native american a redskin to there face because of a  physical trait that cannot be changed.  Hmmmm, did you know that native american skin color is not RED.  Usually you will see tans, or brown color skin, but not red.

 

-The RED in REDSKIN was derived from red war paint worn before going into battle.  Not there actual skin color.

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I think we all better just accept the change that WILL come. The name is gonna change.

 

I was thinking about this today. When and if we ever get back to the SuperBowl, this issue will be the headline for TWO weeks. This issue will take away from the SuperBowl. The NFL, nor the Redskins would want that.


You say you would not call a native american a redskin to there face because of a  physical trait that cannot be changed.  Hmmmm, did you know that native american skin color is not RED.  Usually you will see tans, or brown color skin, but not red.

 

-The RED in REDSKIN was derived from red war paint worn before going into battle.  Not there actual skin color.

 

I don't believe that's true. I know we call light skinned black people redskined. I assume that's why native americans are called redskins.  

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I think we all better just accept the change that WILL come. The name is gonna change.

 

I was thinking about this today. When and if we ever get back to the SuperBowl, this issue will be the headline for TWO weeks. This issue will take away from the SuperBowl. The NFL, nor the Redskins would want that.

 

I don't believe that's true. I know we call light skinned black people redskined. I assume that's why native americans are called redskins.  

You don't believe whats true?? Fact.... Native american skin color is not red.  PERIOD.  The red in redskin has nothing to do with skin color, again it was war paint that made the name redskin.

 

-and the only place you will see two weeks of headlines of the issue before a Superbowl, if we were in it, would be watching liberal T.V.  Don't tune in, if you don't pay attention to the stupidity, it wont ruin your two weeks.  When the game come on enjoy it, simple as that.

Edited by skins2victory

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You don't believe whats true?? Fact.... Native american skin color is not red.  PERIOD.  The red in redskin has nothing to do with skin color, again it was war paint that made the name redskin.

 

-and the only place you will see two weeks of headlines of the issue before a Superbowl, if we were in it, would be watching liberal T.V.  Don't tune in, if you don't pay attention to the stupidity, it wont ruin your two weeks.  When the game come on enjoy it, simple as that.

 

Black people's skin color isn't black either. Just saying.

 

They just talked about this issue at great length on NFL Live. You don't think they won't be addressing it on ESPN and The NFL Network if the Skins were to be in the SuperBowl? 

 

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You don't believe whats true?? Fact.... Native american skin color is not red.  PERIOD.  The red in redskin has nothing to do with skin color, again it was war paint that made the name redskin.

 

-and the only place you will see two weeks of headlines of the issue before a Superbowl, if we were in it, would be watching liberal T.V.  Don't tune in, if you don't pay attention to the stupidity, it wont ruin your two weeks.  When the game come on enjoy it, simple as that.

 

 

This will be a big issue if we are either competing for a shot to go to the Superbowl or are in the Superbowl.  This issue isn't going away until the name changes.  I'll be stunned if in 2024 this team is still called the Redskins.   The name change won't happen until it's financially necessary to change the name and that point hasn't reached there yet.

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Using it in their presence isn't the same as calling them a redskin.

I've read that an open challenge posted on a major news site was to go on a reservation and into a bar and say " hey, what's up redskins". How many would be willing to do it.

 

I remember a time whenI was hanging with a friend in a bar and some people she knew came in.  She introduced me...

 

"Hey guys, this is Andrew, my Jewish friend"

 

It was a bit weird.  I generally don't introduce people in that way.  I am perfectly comfortable with my religion and don't consider the word Jewish an insult.  Likewise, I generally just talk person to person.  Identifiers like race or ethnicity usually don't come up unless they become part of the conversation.  You aren't my black friend, my latino friend, my Asian friend, or my white friend.  You're just my friend.

 

So, I wouldn't go into that bar and say,

 

"Hey, what's up Redskins!"  Just as I wouldn't go into the bar and say, "Hey, what's up blacks!  What's up whites!"

 

That's just culturally weird.  Or maybe it's me.  On the other hand, I'd have no problem going into a bar wearing Redskins stuff and talking football or talking about their culture or history and I actually have done that. 

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Burgold, I think that's the point that the news article was making.  You don't say "hey, what's up blacks" or whites or what ever.  I don't say "black boy" or "white boy" to my students.  If the word redskin was 100% accepted as honorable, awesome, a tribute etc... why wouldn't you say it as the example was given?
 

To be honest, no one's opinions are going to be changed. As I've repeatedly said, I really don't care.  I'm just bothered that so many responses blow off that some NA's are offended by the word. Its as if because there isn't a 100% consensus either way, too bad.  Again, the N-Word ( don't say its' not the same, Champ Bailey said it is), today, right now, there is not a 100% consensus regarding its use.  Some AA's are fine with it (mostly using it among themselves) while others are 100% against its use in any context.  How is that different from NA schools using the Redskin mascot?  I've been saying all along, its for them to decide, not us.  

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Code, I wouldn't call you a cracker...although I have a buddy ( white guy) that calls come of his friends crackers all the time in a joking manner.

The point of Goodell or Snyder calling someone a Redskins is silly. Both of them have...in reference of a football player, team, or coach.

 

I would certainly refer to people as white or black. Never called anyone yellow...never met a yellow person...never met a red person that wasn't burnt from sun damage.

 

My buddy: Who is Code ?

Me: Code..Hmm.. The white guy that teaches school, you remember him right ? You met him at the bbq I had last month, he was wearing the Crocs that we teased him about.

 

See is that statement offensive ( besides the Crocs part) ?  I agree with the retired chief saying the PC crap has gone too far.

 

 

I have black friends that think nothing of calling each other my N'gga, but do I turn around and say it? NO. The intention would be wrong. There are many schools where Native Americans for decades have supported calling their sports teams Redskins, calling each other that name is one thing, rooting for the team is one thing. Going into a bar and calling someone Redskin when you are not a Redskin is another. 

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So do "we" have the right to have the team name Redskins, when we are not redskins?


I've said earlier, If Snyder was NA, there'd be no issue

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Burgold, I think that's the point that the news article was making.  You don't say "hey, what's up blacks" or whites or what ever.  I don't say "black boy" or "white boy" to my students.  If the word redskin was 100% accepted as honorable, awesome, a tribute etc... why wouldn't you say it as the example was given?

 

To be honest, no one's opinions are going to be changed. As I've repeatedly said, I really don't care.  I'm just bothered that so many responses blow off that some NA's are offended by the word. Its as if because there isn't a 100% consensus either way, too bad.  Again, the N-Word ( don't say its' not the same, Champ Bailey said it is), today, right now, there is not a 100% consensus regarding its use.  Some AA's are fine with it (mostly using it among themselves) while others are 100% against its use in any context.  How is that different from NA schools using the Redskin mascot?  I've been saying all along, its for them to decide, not us.  

\\

 

I really can't disagree with that, I just don't see the similarities to the history of the two names and the harm that one brings immediately to mind. By the way I coach youths sports and have heard kids use, you know, the white kid with freckles, or the black kid with glasses, nobody seemed offended. 

So do "we" have the right to have the team name Redskins, when we are not redskins?

I've said earlier, If Snyder was NA, there'd be no issue

 

Yes, we were the Braves, to honor the players and the coach of the Redskins and the NA people we choose the name,,,,long ago and in a manner to honor the NA way. BTW, to no backlash or much fanfare. By far less discussion then we have here in this thread. 

So do "we" have the right to have the team name Redskins, when we are not redskins?

I've said earlier, If Snyder was NA, there'd be no issue

 

Again, intended use. 

Edited by SWFLSkins

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So do "we" have the right to have the team name Redskins, when we are not redskins?

I've said earlier, If Snyder was NA, there'd be no issue

 

NA's don't call anyone Redskin though. Except the men within the organization in Washington that plays football...happens to go by the name Redskins.

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To SWFL, I agree, the intention behind a word is everything. I've said from the beginning, there's no way the team name was picked in order to be derogatory.

However, that being said, no one would allow the word "n-word" to be used as a team name, even if it was a black owner who had no ill intention.  Why? Because while the word doesn't mean the same to everyone, its still negative to many.  

 

I think that's where this issue is. Some cannot believe that the word is used negatively. Obviously not at the same percentage as the N word, because NA's make up far less of the population, but still, the question is how many people have to be offended before it has to be changed?  Times have changed. Richard Sherman, Champ Bailey, London Fletcher (to a lesser degree) have all made comments. 

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I have black friends that think nothing of calling each other my N'gga, but do I turn around and say it? NO. The intention would be wrong. There are many schools where Native Americans for decades have supported calling their sports teams Redskins, calling each other that name is one thing, rooting for the team is one thing. Going into a bar and calling someone Redskin when you are not a Redskin is another. 

 

No one in my family has ever been called a Redskin.

 

We live all over the US now and have lived in all kinds of places. NY, FL, IL, DC, TN, WI, CO, CT, MA, NC, VA, and that's off the top of my head. I have traveled the country and as a family we have traveled all over the world...yeah...never been called a Redskin.

 

It's absurd and unwarranted for the majority of NA's.

 

I know Code has his personal experiences...I have a lifetime and family of experiences. Does his carry more weight ? I don't think so.

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The red in redskin has nothing to do with skin color, again it was war paint that made the name redskin.

 

 

 

 

skins- not trying to pester, but i asked about this a page or two back.

 

where did you get this info from?

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 The Change the Mascot campaign continues to gather strength every time that people are educated about the origin of the R-word and its damaging impact on Native peoples

 

 

well, well. this is interesting.

 

looking forward to halbritter actually doing this. 

 

(but i have a feeling he has a made up story as opposed to facts).

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No one in my family has ever been called a Redskin.

 

We live all over the US now and have lived in all kinds of places. NY, FL, IL, DC, TN, WI, CO, CT, MA, NC, VA, and that's off the top of my head. I have traveled the country and as a family we have traveled all over the world...yeah...never been called a Redskin.

 

It's absurd and unwarranted for the majority of NA's.

 

I know Code has his personal experiences...I have a lifetime and family of experiences. Does his carry more weight ? I don't think so.

 

 

That's a good point, we all know the N word is used commonly by racist white people still to this day. Nearly everyone, until this media press, has ever considered using the name Redskin as a way to be hurtful. Has it ever been used that way as Code has stated, sure. Widespread use as a slur? Enough to have people scurry away in a social situation? I know if I was at a party or event and someone starts using the N word I move away from that person and if heard enough I tell them to shut it up. I'm white, but the word still hurts me. 

 

 

I remember a particular time when the Native Americans were taking it on the chin over casino money and tribal issues, the Miccosukkee here locally in particular or the Seminoles regionally. Contractors working on those reservations had disparaging words over getting payment on work done. I never, no one time remember anyone of them saying the word Redskin to describe a Native in a negative way, and everyone knows someone not getting paid does tend to bring out the worst possible comments, and contractors in particular are pretty much the rawest Americans out there. 

Edited by SWFLSkins

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Kosher, I don't think my experiences weigh more than yours, mine were a small snippet, 4 months in 94 and 95.  However, you can't deny that people are offended.  How many is enough? I don't know that anyone can put a number on that.

 

Times have changed. We are a more PC society, for good and bad.  I get frustrated with PC stuff a lot.  As a teacher, we are not supposed to show grades in front of the class, don't want to make a kid feel bad. I do it anyway.  I get them used to it early and they end up trying harder.  PC sucks, but, it is what it is.

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skins- not trying to pester, but i asked about this a page or two back.

 

where did you get this info from?

In the story TK posted about the Patawomeck Chief the Chief made reference to the use of berries for sun protection turning skin red, the use of red war paint is documented, but I believe the research by Goddard is the definitive source on the etymology of the word.  Who knows what Marshall thought the origin of the term was.  In any event you see the red war paint explanation all over the place in comments.

 

However, that being said, no one would allow the word "n-word" to be used as a team name, even if it was a black owner who had no ill intention.  Why? Because while the word doesn't mean the same to everyone, its still negative to many.  

Please stop with the comparisons to disparaging terms for other minorities, the history of the relationship of NAs to the power structure of this country is unique (as is the relationship of AAs).  If they were equivalent there would be teams named those things, or at least referring to the minorities in some way.

Edited by RedskinsFan44

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Burgold, I think that's the point that the news article was making.  You don't say "hey, what's up blacks" or whites or what ever.  I don't say "black boy" or "white boy" to my students.  If the word redskin was 100% accepted as honorable, awesome, a tribute etc... why wouldn't you say it as the example was given?

 

To be honest, no one's opinions are going to be changed. As I've repeatedly said, I really don't care.  I'm just bothered that so many responses blow off that some NA's are offended by the word. Its as if because there isn't a 100% consensus either way, too bad.  Again, the N-Word ( don't say its' not the same, Champ Bailey said it is), today, right now, there is not a 100% consensus regarding its use.  Some AA's are fine with it (mostly using it among themselves) while others are 100% against its use in any context.  How is that different from NA schools using the Redskin mascot?  I've been saying all along, its for them to decide, not us.  

I think there is an open question as to whether the R-word and the N-word are the same, especially today.  Now, in the 1890's you may have had a point.  That said, I do believe that there are some who are sincerely offended by the name.  I think there are others who are cynically using it for attention,  and many who feel pride at being represented (or at least pride when the team plays well).

 

I liken it somewhat to this.  As I mentioned above I am Jewish.  When watching the Olympics I root for the USA because I am a proud American.  Now, on those rare occassions when I see Israel doing well or Poland (where my Mom was born) doing well, I feel some good about that because even though I have never been to either place I feel some affiliation.  Likewise, I suspect many Native Americans are more offended by being called NAs than Redskins.  After all, who wants to be called non applicable and isn't that what the white man tried to make them throughout his history in the Americas?

 

On a serious note, I do believe that there are some who are sincerely offended and that troubles me.  The question is, would you be honoring them more by removing the name or dishonoring those who take pride in the recognition, like the Virginia chief whose post was put in this thread a few pages back who said he was entitled to speak for the thousands of his tribe. Right now, best evidence suggests that the vast majority of people of Native American heritage either support or take no umbrage to the name.  The question is, for them, for those who root for the Red Mesa Redskins and the like, would we be doing harm if we changed the name?

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Burgold, good points and I honestly don't know the answers.  You at least acknowledge that some people are offended. I agree with you too in that obviously, there are some who are not and if you change the name, that upsets them.  Its a no win situation IMO.

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I remember a particular time when the Native Americans were taking it on the chin over casino money and tribal issues, the Miccosukkee here locally in particular or the Seminoles regionally. Contractors working on those reservations had disparaging words over getting payment on work done. I never, no one time remember anyone of them saying the word Redskin to describe a Native in a negative way, and everyone knows someone not getting paid does tend to bring out the worst possible comments, and contractors in particular are pretty much the rawest Americans out there. 

 

I tell this story all the time. There was a black kid, 13 years old at a gas station I went to in Fayetteville, NC. He was offering to pump gas for two guys in their truck. Summer evening...guy gets out of his truck..."get away from my truck n.....". The confrontation ensued. Neither backed down and the kid broke the guys nose and put him down with one shot after getting swung at. The other guy gets out of the truck and confronts the kid and starts to try to fight him also...kid rocks him too.  

 

One of the saddest and funniest things I had ever seen at the time. I was only 18-19 and happened to be getting gas at that time.

 

Kid never called him a cracker, or anything...as angry as he was, that was not on his mind, he was offended and upset because he was disrespected. I have redneck friends that embrace it...they own that. They are rednecks, but some are hispanic, some white, some black. They know the connotation that goes with that tag, but it is not racist to be a redneck. It's racist to be a racist.

 

Kosher, I don't think my experiences weigh more than yours, mine were a small snippet, 4 months in 94 and 95.  However, you can't deny that people are offended.  How many is enough? I don't know that anyone can put a number on that.

 

Times have changed. We are a more PC society, for good and bad.  I get frustrated with PC stuff a lot.  As a teacher, we are not supposed to show grades in front of the class, don't want to make a kid feel bad. I do it anyway.  I get them used to it early and they end up trying harder.  PC sucks, but, it is what it is.

 

You can't stop change if you don't fight to stop it. Same as you can't make change.

 

You in your own way are saying that you don't believe every kid should get a trophy, but sit here and tell us that we should just give up on what we believe to be a reasonable fight to feel confident about ? 

 

Come on brother.

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Kosher, I'm fine with skins fans fighting the fight, from the get go, my ONLY point in this thread is that the word IS used as a slur. My personal feeling is that many in this thread don't believe it or just don't care. Their opinion is "too bad", "majority rules" or what ever else.

 

I have a devil's advocate personality and I am very open minded. I see both sides of the story. I tend to argue in here against the majority. I do believe what I'm arguing, but my intention is not to have the skins name changed, but just to make people realize its not as cut and dry as so many have stated.

 

I do think if Snyder wasn't such a douche and if he had handled things much much differently, it would be possible to keep the name. But he's drawn a line in the sand and he isn't liked.  I think his hand will eventually be forced.

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You say you would not call a native american a redskin to there face because of a  physical trait that cannot be changed.  Hmmmm, did you know that native american skin color is not RED.  Usually you will see tans, or brown color skin, but not red.

 

-The RED in REDSKIN was derived from red war paint worn before going into battle.  Not there actual skin color.

 

You were saying this a couple of pages back and I find it just as dumb now as I did then.  You still have not given any proof the name was derived from warpaint.  If you read these pages, you know I support the team name Redskins just like you.  However, I do not support false information no matter the side. 

 

Prove to us that the name came from warpaint.  I have seen this written in a lot of places with no proof.  You will have to dig really deep on this one.  Until then, Redskin does refer to the color of the skin. 

 

Also, yes the color is not an accurate representation of the skin.  However, that is how we almost always have referred to ourselves.  Are you white?  Do you run around telling people, 'Don't call me white, I am peach!'  or something to that affect?

 

Honestly, arguing the red, black, white etc colors of skin just sounds like attention seeking.

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