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The Official ES All Things Redskins Name Change Thread (Reboot Edition---Read New OP)


Alaskins

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So we are ok with people using a racist slur as long as the people are using it when referring to themselves?

 

i.e.

 

A school that is 90% black calling themselves the negro's.

A school that is 90% Hispanic calling themselves the Spic's

A school that is 90% Jewish calling themselves the Zhidan

A school that is 90% white calling themselves the Wasps

Cite a real school similar to your examples. Notre Dame and Native (themed) schools aside.

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heres what bothers me about saying its 'dated'. yes, its dated when you are referring to native americans who are not playing for the football team. but, since nobody uses the word unless they are referring to potatoes or the team, the word has taken on a whole new meaning. 

 

like SHF, you say 'redskins' people think of the team. 

 

its just a unique thing, which is why all these analogies to other terms always seem to not work.

 

 

Can you think of any other "unique" things like this for analogy, where a word has an questionable meaning in the dictionary, and some team or entity uses that word, and the team's imagery and song clearly are related to that exact word and meaning, but the word is not deemed to have any social significance other than as a referece to the team or entity?   I'm having trouble thinking of one.

 

That's because it doesn't really work that way - unless you are a Redskins fan.  

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I really don't agree that if the team abandons the use of the word "Redskin" it will also have to abandon all Native American imagery, the colors, the song, etc.  I think that is a classic slippery slope fallacy.  The fact that some few people claim that all Native American imagery is bad does not mean that this is a powerful or widely held view.   (note - if a lot of Native Americans disagreed, I would change my view, but I don't see that trend at all)

 

We are being targeted almost entirely because the word "Redskin" is outdated and controversial in the 21st Century.  I is.  We don't want it to be but it is.  The dictionaries say it is.   We need to resort to history and semantic arguments to try to get around this pretty obvious fact.  

Harjo and the Oneida Nation have already said this is just the tip of the iceberg and they plan to attack every team using NA mascots so yes we have to abandon any ties to Native Americans.

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The team is RedSkins.   Despite what many on here say about the original meaning and use of the word, the word still means red skins, as in people with red skin.  

 

 

gibbs, as best as i can tell from reading your posts, you seem to be equating 'racial' with 'racist'. 

 

referring to a group of people by their ethnicity is not inherently racist. but, as someone mentioned earlier, implying they are inferior due to their race is racist. 

 

is this what you are saying? or am i missing your point?

 

now, someone can use a word, specifically a word that contains a color and reference to skin, in a derogatory way. there are plenty of words that have dual meanings where one meaning is bad and another is neutral or good. 

 

where i am with 'redskin' is that, even of someone has used the word in the past negatively towards a native american, is that enough to force a team to change it?

 

this is why defenders of the name always talk about its origin and acceptance among native americans. i'm not sure one person using the word in a way that vastly differs from its original meaning means snyder should  change the name. 

(note - if a lot of Native Americans disagreed, I would change my view, but I don't see that trend at all)

 

 

 

interesting you say this, as you are opposed to the name. 

Can you think of any other "unique" things like this for analogy, where a word has an questionable meaning in the dictionary, and some team or entity uses that word, and the team's imagery and song clearly are related to that exact word and meaning, but the word is not deemed to have any social significance other than as a referece to the team or entity?   I'm having trouble thinking of one.

 

That's because it doesn't really work that way - unless you are a Redskins fan.  

 

 

hence the word 'unique'?

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Why are we hooked up with the origin of the word?   In 2013, it's generally frowned upon to group people together by the color of their skin.   It's called racist.    No matter what the meaning or origin of the word Redskins is, it is currently thought of as a Pro Sports team and associates with a group of people, native Americans.    It doesn't matter if it was intended for the color of the paint or if it was meant to honor anyone.      The facts are that, today, Redskins, is a term to categorize native Americans.   Maybe that's the wrong interpretation of the word, but it's still an interpretation on the word that almost everyone uses.   Most don't have a problem with it.  Some do.  

 

I think you guys that are stuck on the original intent of the word are hiding behind a strawman because admitting the facts causes you stress and change.  

but we don't know if that's what it means or not, so simply acknowledging that a persons skin is red without any context whatsoever is inherently racist?  What facts are there?  I thought Redskins was the name of a football team.

 

What you are talking about, is when "public opinion" shifts on something we must follow suit.  I'm stating that unless the people who are supposed to be offended by the term are actually offended, not Joe "any other race"...their opinions on the matter mean nothing.   

Harjo and the Oneida Nation have already said this is just the tip of the iceberg and they plan to attack every team using NA mascots so yes we have to abandon any ties to Native Americans.

 

and why would you want to continue to support people that don't support you? 

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Harjo and the Oneida Nation have already said this is just the tip of the iceberg and they plan to attack every team using NA mascots so yes we have to abandon any ties to Native Americans.

 

Harjo and the Oneida Nation are gaining traction today because the word "Redskin" is very hard to defend unless you used contorted arguments about history and semantics, arguments that are difficult to make and hard to sell to the undecided.  They have the easy argument - "the word is offensive on its face - just look at it!"  

 

Take away that easy argument and the issue loses its steam.   Which is why the Chiefs and the Seminoles and the Braves and the Vikings and the Celtics and the Blackhawks and the Trojans and the Vandals and the Raging Cajuns aren't taking any heat at all - and we are. 

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Cite a real school similar to your examples. Notre Dame and Native (themed) schools aside.

 

I give you the Hereford Whitefaces.

 

http://www.prepsportswear.com/school/us/Texas/Hereford/Hereford-High-School-Whitefaces/Men-Sweatshirts/ProductList.aspx?category=32&schoolid=2014&utm_source=maxpreps&utm_campaign=partner&utm_medium=api&utm_term=product+list+PC78H&utm_content=api

 

My point is more that if the word Redskins is racist then you can't have it both ways.  

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Nice find w/ those Whitefaces. lol

 

Not all people can do and say the same things under the same context. See Chris Rock and Jay Leno.

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A Texas prep school?

 

 

 

interesting you say this, as you are opposed to the name. 

 

 

I don't think the name is intended to be offensive, and I like it personally.  I have sung it out loud more times than I can count.  

 

Nevertheless, I acknowledge that it is probably time for a change.  The world has changed since 1932.  I don't call black people "colored folk" anymore, and I accept that without mourning it at all.  

 

Adapt or die.  I have adapted.

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I don't think the name is intended to be offensive, and I like it personally.  I have sung it out loud more times than I can count.  

 

Nevertheless, I acknowledge that it is probably time for a change.  The world has changed since 1932.  I don't call black people "colored folk" anymore, and I accept that without mourning it at all.  

 

Adapt or die.  I have adapted.

 

 

but you said if "alot native americans change their view, i would change mine".

 

so, if the annenberg poll turned out to be accurate, you would support keeping the name, because 'alot of native americans' agree with that?

 

you want what alot of native americans want, no matter what that is. 

 

i think most of us agree with this. just surprised to hear you say it. 

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Why are we hooked up with the origin of the word?   In 2013, it's generally frowned upon to group people together by the color of their skin.   It's called racist.    No matter what the meaning or origin of the word Redskins is, it is currently thought of as a Pro Sports team and associates with a group of people, native Americans.    It doesn't matter if it was intended for the color of the paint or if it was meant to honor anyone.      The facts are that, today, Redskins, is a term to categorize native Americans.   Maybe that's the wrong interpretation of the word, but it's still an interpretation on the word that almost everyone uses.   Most don't have a problem with it.  Some do.  

 

I think you guys that are stuck on the original intent of the word are hiding behind a strawman because admitting the facts causes you stress and change.   It's all good.  We've all been there.

 

If I walked around saying Redskins all day, people would think of the football team that has sucked for the better part of two decades, not Native Americans.  In 2013 all it is is a football team name to the overwhelming majority of people.  Now, I'm not saying that means it shouldn't be changed, just get a grip, we aren't in a John Wayne movie.

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If I walked around saying Redskins all day, people would think of the football team that has sucked for the better part of two decades, not Native Americans.  In 2013 all it is is a football team name to the overwhelming majority of people.  Now, I'm not saying that means it shouldn't be changed, just get a grip, we aren't in a John Wayne movie.

 

That's exactly why we in Redskins "nation" are struggling with this.  We see it as the DC Football team name.  Nothing more.   However, the name is questionable and some people don't like it.   We, as Skins fans, really don't have a leg to stand on.   Everyone defending the name is getting caught up in it's original intent and the fact that the football team has only glorified Native Americans.  This is all true.   

But...

The name takes a color and matches it with the word Skin.   That alone is the reason for the change.  Nothing else really matters.

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That's exactly why we in Redskins "nation" are struggling with this.  We see it as the DC Football team name.  Nothing more.   However, the name is questionable and some people don't like it.   We, as Skins fans, really don't have a leg to stand on.   Everyone defending the name is getting caught up in it's original intent and the fact that the football team has only glorified Native Americans.  This is all true.   

But...

The name takes a color and matches it with the word Skin.   That alone is the reason for the change.  Nothing else really matters.

 

I agree it is insensitive to a certain number of people but referring to someone's skin color doesn't make something racist unless inferiority is implied.  Like if Chief Wahoo was our mascot instead of a logo designed by those of a Native American ranch, I mean, that would be insanely suggestive.  If the team name has taken away the negative connotation of the word Redskin from the minds of contemporary America, isn't that a good thing? 

 

I'm of the opinion that while I'd rather it stay unchanged, change isn't the end of the world, it's just people are taking a molehill and turning it into a mountain on many parts of this debate.

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If I walked around saying Redskins all day, people would think of the football team that has sucked for the better part of two decades, not Native Americans.  In 2013 all it is is a football team name to the overwhelming majority of people. 

 

and I do this.  More than I probably should, borderline obsessive (that is only partly tongue- in-cheek) and not one person I talk to thinks about Native Americans when I say "Redskins" 

 

Not one 

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Since the name is not changing anytime soon, I don't know why we're going on about this, Every " angle " has been re-hashed, it seems hundreds of times in this thread. It looks like they're are some here that don't care one way or the other whether the name is changed or not; they just want to debate it.  Obama, Goodell, and Snyder all agree ..... It's up to Snyder.

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Matt Ackland @mattackland 54m

Principal at Wilson High School plans to start a discussion with students about banning Redskins clothing.

Retweeted by Dan Steinberg
 
Matt Ackland @mattackland 53m

He said a student came to him saying she was offended. Mayor told him it might be a good discussion to be had.

Retweeted by Dan Steinberg
 

 

 

Are you kidding me?

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Honest questions

 

1.) Can a person of another race than you, be offended for you on your behalf? 

 

2.) If the answer is Yes, as it pertains to this team...should we care?

1)  No.  They have absolutely no idea what it means to be a member of your race and how you feel.  

2)  If someone were to answer yes.  Then we should absolutely not care in the least.

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