The Official ES All Things Redskins Name Change Thread (Reboot Edition---Read New OP)

[tshile]

RE: the idea that 10% should be enough, or that there's a problem with it not being enough

 

 

You're carefully wording that as to fit your agenda. The issue isn't that "10% isn't enough" to bother offending people, it's that "90% validate the idea that the word can be used in a non-offensive way".

 

If 10% want to continue to take it as offensive, there's really nothing we can do about that. 90% says there is a use of the word that isn't offensive, and that we're using it that way.

 

It's unfortunate 10% of Native Americans are offended by our favorite football team's name. It really is. But until you find some meaningful evidence that our claim that the word can be used in a non-offensive way is false, there's really nothing to discuss.

 

And at this point, the Native Americans have been polled twice in the last 16 years, and both results were the same. A Native American tribe requested the logo be changed to something they created.

 

There is no evidence that the context in which we use the word is made up or wrong (there is only evidence that other contexts exist, which is not our fault/problem.) There is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

 

You may be able to find a new poll, in 100 years, that says 99.9% of native americans are offended by the team name, but guess what? That won't change anything. Because after 80 years of existence it has been proven time and time again that a non-offensive context exists, and that's how it's used.

 

You've lost. Go find something else to champion.

[SkinsHokieFan]

 

So, if we're serious about caring about the respect factor, and we want to use this poll as our #1 token of evidence that we're not in the wrong, we should probably make it a point to make it understood that when we do that we are being disrespectful.

 

Agree. I think fan captains should really get on this.

 

Fans should stop wearing Native American attire to games. I don't think that is too much to ask for 

[Larry]

You may be able to find a new poll, in 100 years, that says 99.9% of native americans are offended by the team name, but guess what? That won't change anything. Because after 80 years of existence it has been proven time and time again that a non-offensive context exists, and that's how it's used.

Strongly disagree. Just my opinion, but if a significant number of Natives are offended by the name, then it should be changed.

Now, I'm not sure that there is a magical number for what "a significant number" is. no doubt different people will draw the line in different places.

 

IMO?  No, it doesn't even have to be a majority of the Natives, before I'd change my opinion to "It should be changed."  I'd say that the threshold is lower than that. 

 

(For some time, since Annenberg was an old poll, I've been assuming that the actual, current, "percent offended" was probably around 20%.  And I've thought that that's probably around where I would draw the line.  IMO, if the percent offended, over the last 10 years, has grown from 9% to 20%, then they should be planning for the name change.  Because these trends tend to snowball.) 

 

But, while I'm pretty certain that 49 offended people deserve to be paid attention to more than 51 non-offended people, (particularly of the offended people feel strongly, while the non-offended are simply "I don't care"), I'm not at all certain that the opinions of 9 people deserve to rule over the opinions of 90 people. 

 

To me, 90% agreement is a really strong consensus. 

 

We can't get 90% of people to agree that Barack Obama was born in the US, or that dumping a half a billion tons of waste into the atmosphere every year is bad.  We can't get 90% of the people to agree that the title of the movie is "Star Wars", not "A New Hope".  But we've got 90% agreement on this?  That's a level of agreement which is seen on very few "issues" in our society. 

 

So, I do think that there's a point where, if x% of natives are offended, then the name should be changed.  And no, I don;t know exactly where that number is.  But I'm pretty sure that it's between 9% and 50%.  In my opinion. 

[elkabong82]

Ok a couple things jump out at me with this poll, first, only 44% of the people are affiliated with a tribe. I am curious how they determined if the people are NA or not. I don't know how many black women I heard say they had NA in their blood. No you are just regular black. #2 the poll itself said 21% of NA's feel that the word is disrespectful to NA's. How do they get 9 out of 10 when 21% find it disrespectful. If you estimate that there are 5.2 million people with NA blood, then that is over 1 million who are find it disrespectful or 1 in 5. Furthermore 43% of NA's find it to be of some importance. So 2.2 million NA's find it somewhat important. That's nearly half. When compared to other issues that the NA population has, yeah it's not that important, but there is something tied to it. I don't think this poll is the slam dunk that most are claiming. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/how-the-washington-post-conducted-the-survey-on-the-redskins-name/2016/05/19/98c0a4ae-1b8c-11e6-9c81-4be1c14fb8c8_story.html

 

People self-identified. Poll was done in tandem with another poll about a wide range of topics. Those who identified as Native American, and not mixed race as someone with some NA blood mixed with other might do, were given questions on the team name. 

 

The 44% being tribe members was weighted to reflect US Census numbers. 44% or so of the NA population are tribal members. Also, if you're going to give tribe members more consideration than non-members, it should be noted that the poll results showed tribe members were LESS offended than non-members. 

 

Final survey results were weighted to match census data indicating 20 percent of single-race Native Americans live in Zip codes with at least 75 percent reservation land, and 17 percent live in Zip codes containing at least some reservation land.

 

21% thought the term was disrespectful in general. Obviously context matters and in the context the team uses, more are not offended. 

 

1 in 5 may find the general term offensive, but only 1 in 10 are bothered by the team's usage of the name. That's 500k vs. 4.7 million!

 

Also, your 43% find it to be of some importance is wrong. 54% said not at all important, 23% said not too important, 2% no opinion, 10% only said somewhat important and 10% said it was very important. So roughly 500k find the issue to be very important, and 500k find it to be somewhat important. The remaining 4.2 million, 77%, said it's not too important or not important at all. Plus, as others pointed out, important doesn't mean negative/bad for all respondents. Some could root for the team and think the issue is important in terms of keeping the name.

 

This poll is a Vince Carter highlight reel slam dunk.

[Riggo#44]

WaPo Senior Regional Correspondent drops protest of Redskins name: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/im-dropping-my-protest-of-washingtons-football-team-name/2016/05/19/b09e8e7e-1cfe-11e6-8c7b-6931e66333e7_story.html?tid=sm_fb

 

 

Robert McCartney is senior regional correspondent and associate editor at The Washington Post.

 

It’s humbling to admit it, but Dan Snyder wins.

 

A Washington Post poll has confirmed that the vast majority of American Indians don’t consider the name of Washington’s professional football team to be offensive.

 

Why should this bother me? After all, I’m a longtime, devoted fan of the burgundy and gold. A season ticket holder for more than a decade. Most of my fellow fans will feel relief and vindication that 9 out of 10 Native Americans judge the name to be innocent — just as team owner Snyder and the National Football League have said all along.

[@DCGoldPants]

Up until this I felt like Wise and Harjo were on the same page. Then Wise is saying it's not about being Native American, it's about him. And, you have Harjo dismissing that they people are offended, it matters, and she gets to choose who is and is not Native American.

They don't overlap anywhere on these things.

[tshile]

Strongly disagree. Just my opinion, but if a significant number of Natives are offended by the name, then it should be changed.

 

But we have already established that he name has roots in a non-offensive context.

 

So if 100% of Native Americans polled in 100 years say they are offended, then we know this is a made up offense. It's contrived.

 

The intent and root of the word will still be the same.

 

If you want to give in to that sort of political correctness then that's your prerogative, but I refuse to.

Agree. I think fan captains should really get on this.

 

Fans should stop wearing Native American attire to games. I don't think that is too much to ask for 

Maybe we can draft a letter and send it to whats his name... see what kind of response we get?

 

I think a perfect response from teh team is to completely ignore the rest of the poll and just release a letter asking fans to respect the fact that the Native Americans find this disrespectful.

 

Obviously the team cannot control its fans and barring entrance to the stadium is probably too far, but a simple request to recognize that it offends them and to ask them to not wear head dresses and dress up as native americans for sporting events might actually be a good way to go about it...

[Riggo#44]

Up until this I felt like Wise and Harjo were on the same page. Then Wise is saying it's not about being Native American, it's about him. And, you have Harjo dismissing that they people are offended, it matters, and she gets to choose who is and is not Native American.

They don't overlap anywhere on these things.

 

It's funny to see people contort their stances to discredit this survey. 

 

“The act of polling a human rights issue is absurd. It trivializes the reports and experiences of those native people who’ve been hurt and damaged by native stereotypes and by the Washington team name,” Blackhorse said. “There’s no validity to this poll.”

Agree. I think fan captains should really get on this.

 

Fans should stop wearing Native American attire to games. I don't think that is too much to ask for 

 

Agree 100%. That is something the poll showed Natives are actually offended by, and I can understand that. Likewise, I see how the Indians' Chief Wahoo is offensive.

[Riggo-toni]

There can't be global warming because it snowed last year....

[Burgold]

It frustrates me how many people seem completely ignorant about sampling and drastically analysis. The N is plenty big enough to generate statistical confidence.

Argh.

There are always validity threats, but the complaints I'm hearing don't even cover those. This is pretty basic stuff too.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

It frustrates me how many people seem completely ignorant about sampling and drastically analysis. The N is plenty big enough to generate statistical confidence.

Argh.

There are always validity threats, but the complaints I'm hearing don't even cover those. This is pretty basic stuff too.

The complaints seem to center around 3 things: number of respondents is too small, should only include NAs that are "real" Indians, and the results don't match my personal experience.

Outside of that, the other main approach has been to say that while the results may indeed be valid, they are 100% irrelevant to the issue. Which, as pointed out earlier in the thread, would NOT have been the stance had 90% of all NAs felt the name was indeed racist.

[DogofWar1]

You need to re-read your history.

Democrats like Al Gore (and his wife Tipper) and Joseph Lieberman were some of the leading officials dragging Rock and Roll artists before Congress to complain about lyrics.

It was a bipartisan effort.

Joe Liberman invented the ESRB.

Still haven't forgiven him for that. I like my Mortal Kombat like it was originally intended to be played, by little children who will grow up well adjusted because they found alternative avenues for their anger.

[goskins10]

Joe Liberman invented the ESRB.

Still haven't forgiven him for that. I like my Mortal Kombat like it was originally intended to be played, by little children who will grow up well adjusted because they found alternative avenues for their anger.

 

 

Not to get too far off topic:

 

While he may have been credited with the creation, it was actually a compromise against a primarily tipper gore (nut case from hell!) led and driven effort to censor all "questionable" music from record stores and off TV. This included MTV that was skyrocketing. Just for those playing at home, it was actually Frank Zappa who went toe to toe with tipper and the government to keep the censorship efforts from moving forward. Once the rating system was in place he testified many times to make the system voluntary, fearing a mandatory system was still too close to censorship. While unsuccessful there, he did keep the efforts from moving forward.

 

Tipper did eventually admit that the rating system was working, but still lobbied TV and Cable stations like MTV and VH1 to show any videos with "explicit" lyrics or imagery until after what is considered prime time. She was only moderately successful. But make no mistake, while others participated, tipper Gore was the driving force behind the attempts to censor music. Had it not been for Frank Zappa, she may have very well been more successful. He fought this right up till he died of prostate cancer in 1993.

 

I still listen to Overnight Sensation, Apostrophe and sometimes Weasels Ripped my Flesh! I have even been known to break out the Freak Out LP from his early days with the Mothers of Invention. Interesting note, outside trying pot a handful of times, Zappa never did drugs, despite being accused of it many times.

[grhqofb5]

Agree. I think fan captains should really get on this.

 

Fans should stop wearing Native American attire to games. I don't think that is too much to ask for 

 

I don't see this question in the detailed results from the poll.  There is a question regarding whether NAs are offended by NA imagery used in sports, and 91% of responses are classified as either "not too much" or "not at all."  Only 8% indicate "a great deal" or "a good amount." 1% with no opinion.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/page/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2016/05/19/National-Politics/Polling/release_424.xml?tid=a_inl

 

 

Was this included in some of the more detailed open ended questions that may have been asked?

 

EDIT:  This is not included in the poll.  Looks like that reference was slipped in by McCartney in his mea culpa, referring to some interviews of NAs: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/im-dropping-my-protest-of-washingtons-football-team-name/2016/05/19/b09e8e7e-1cfe-11e6-8c7b-6931e66333e7_story.html?tid=sm_tw

 

"The poll didn’t ask about the team’s Indian head logo, but individual Native Americans said in interviews that they liked it. The one thing that really offended them: non-natives donning feather headdresses, painting their faces or otherwise dressing up as Indians. Among other things, that could mock native religious traditions."

 

I credit McCartney's statement, which took major balls.  But he seems to spend quite a bit of it rationalizing.  Again, if the question is "Do you find non-NAs wearing Indian headdresses and other indian dress paraphrenalia offensive?" that needs to be surveyed. 

[Spaceman Spiff]

some people are not so happy

 

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2016/05/19/reaction-to-latest-redskins-name-poll-despite-results-strong-emotions-remain/

 

Ugh, Lindsay Czarniak is on sportscenter right now talking about how it doesn't change anything for her, either.

 

White people acting offended because being offended is popular these days!  You're not someone unless you're offended and then take to social media to talk about how offended you are.  

[grhqofb5]

 

Agree 100%. That is something the poll showed Natives are actually offended by, and I can understand that. Likewise, I see how the Indians' Chief Wahoo is offensive.

 

Read my post on this point.

[goskins10]

Ugh, Lindsay Czarniak is on sportscenter right now talking about how it doesn't change anything for her, either.

 

White people acting offended because being offended is popular these days!  You're not someone unless you're offended and then take to social media to talk about how offended you are.  

 

 

If this poll makes no difference to you, outside of the 10% of Native Americans who I would not tell how to feel, the others are ****ing idiots and their opinions no longer matter. If you are in journalism and choose to ignore factual data, you have lost your objectivity and are no longer relevant. 

[Riggo#44]

This makes no sense:

The results of this poll confirm a reality that is encouraging but hardly surprising: Native Americans are resilient and have not allowed the NFL’s decades-long denigration of us to define our own self-image,” said Change the Mascot leaders National Congress of American Indians Executive Director Jackie Pata and Oneida Nation Representative Ray Halbritter. “However, that proud resilience does not give the NFL a license to continue marketing, promoting, and profiting off of a dictionary-defined racial slur — one that tells people outside of our community to view us as mascots.

[Metalhead]

This makes no sense:

The results of this poll confirm a reality that is encouraging but hardly surprising: Native Americans are resilient and have not allowed the NFL’s decades-long denigration of us to define our own self-image,” said Change the Mascot leaders National Congress of American Indians Executive Director Jackie Pata and Oneida Nation Representative Ray Halbritter. “However, that proud resilience does not give the NFL a license to continue marketing, promoting, and profiting off of a dictionary-defined racial slur — one that tells people outside of our community to view us as mascots.

I had to read the quote twice. I think the NFL's continued use of the mascots is what he refers to as "not surprising" and the resiliency in response is "encouraging".

[grhqofb5]

This makes no sense:

The results of this poll confirm a reality that is encouraging but hardly surprising: Native Americans are resilient and have not allowed the NFL’s decades-long denigration of us to define our own self-image,” said Change the Mascot leaders National Congress of American Indians Executive Director Jackie Pata and Oneida Nation Representative Ray Halbritter. “However, that proud resilience does not give the NFL a license to continue marketing, promoting, and profiting off of a dictionary-defined racial slur — one that tells people outside of our community to view us as mascots.

 

In other words, the focus of Halbritter's concern is the monetary aspect of this.  Redskins is a term owned by Native Americans. If you want to profit off the name, then these people deserve compensation.  And Halbritter is the leader of this diverse group of people. Ipso facto, Halbritter, as their leader, will accept the check on their behalf and deposit it into a fund in the cayman islands.

[SkinsGuy]

Tipper Gore? Sure, find the exception to make the rule. Let's be honest. Back in the day the anti-rock movement was hardly a liberal hippy thing. It was a conservative, Bible thumping, protect the children movement.

I can imagine born again Southern social conservatives like Jimmy Carter being on that train, but ya had to have conservatism in your blood to be on the anti-rock and especially the anti-rap movement.

But let's not go to far on my derailment. We actually are in agreement in the big issue. The "Redskins" issue.

 

 

I do want to derail it either, but I even though I was a teenager then, I clearly remember the "assault" on heavy metal. It was a bipartisan effort.

 

It was the first reason I frowned on a Clinton presidency. I saw Al Gore next to him and I said "Isn't that the asshole who playing records backwards". LOL!

[Kosher Ham]

There are not 5M NA's in this country. 

You have to be 25% or more by blood through the mothers bloodline to even be considered NA. 

So as someone who is 50% NA...Only my sisters' bloodline is relevant to future generations. 

My brothers children are not considered NA, nor mine. 

[SkinsGuy]

Ugh, Lindsay Czarniak is on sportscenter right now talking about how it doesn't change anything for her, either.

 

White people acting offended because being offended is popular these days!  You're not someone unless you're offended and then take to social media to talk about how offended you are.  

 

 

[Riggo-toni]

The N is plenty big enough to generate statistical confidence.

There you go, throwing around the N word like it's nothing, and subsequently baffled that people are offended....

[elkabong82]

Ugh, Lindsay Czarniak is on sportscenter right now talking about how it doesn't change anything for her, either.

 

White people acting offended because being offended is popular these days!  You're not someone unless you're offended and then take to social media to talk about how offended you are.  

 

Because for her and so many others the issue was never about Native Americans, it was about creating a cause for a poor minority group just so they could say they were fighting for a cause. It's a liberal wet dream. They're current stances show it's always been about themselves and never truly been about Native Americans. It's pathetic.