Boss_Hogg Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Or, you could just tell me? That article suggests that thanksgiving was a Holocaust for native Americans. Tell me how. I'm googling "where does thanksgiving really come from" and I'm finding about 100 different stories. I'm interested in knowing which ones are historically accurate. http://mashable.com/2015/11/26/native-american-thanksgiving/?utm_cid=mash-com-Tw-main-link#6_BTo7I_ZaqG The story behind Thanksgiving is one that has been twisted into fairy tale. The real history of Thanksgiving is one of disease and enslavement demolishing indigenous populations. Europeans came to what is now the state of Connecticut and killed 700 indigenous people during their annual Green Corn Festival, which was their Thanksgiving, in 1637. The slaughter, according to the governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony at the time of the killings, called for a true “day of Thanksgiving.” Dr. Mishuana Goeman, Tonawanda Band of Seneca, tells Mashable that Thanksgiving has a dual meaning, making the holiday complex. While its history is rooted in harm and murder, Goeman, who is the director of American Indian Studies Research Center at UCLA, also says the Thanksgiving Address for Haudenosaunee people had important meaning within the community long before "the stealing and rape of North America was even a glint in Europeans’ eyes." It's an uncomfortable narrative that is far from what we're used to hearing. But we have an obligation to recognize that history, and work to support indigenous populations who still live with that history. “We are still here. We live among you," Denise Desiderio, Sappony, tells Mashable. Desiderio is the policy director of National Congress of American Indians. "But that doesn’t mean we lose our culture. That doesn’t mean we lose our languages. That doesn’t mean we lose our history." November, which is Native American Heritage Month, is brimming with opportunities to think about and meaningfully support indigenous populations. Here are seven ways to support Native communities and have an impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grego Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Thanks, Boss. I'm going to look into that. I'm wary of this story being another myth, along the lines of "Redskins comes from scalps/squaw is slang for vagina" perpetrated by some activists for their own purposes, because there are some many varying stories about the origin of thanksgiving out there. I'd like to see if there is any historical backing for this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Granted, I ibviously wasn't there. But I have trouble imagining a boatload of settlers killing 700 Natives in a YEAR. Again, maybe it's just my incorrect mental image, but I wouldn't think there would be 700 Natives in the average county. ---- But even if your claim is true, that's an argument to hate the Thanksgiving holiday. (Good luck with that, by the way). Not a football team sending out a happy platitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFKFedEx Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/33781-no-thanks-how-thanksgiving-narratives-erase-the-genocide-of-native-peoples Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 I think you intended to put that in the "why Thanksgiving (and the USA. And capitalism.) is vastly more offensive than the Washington Redskins' name" thread. Still, I do want to thank you for providing support for my feeling that a lot of this "controversy" comes from the folks I think of as "the professionally offended". (And illustrating their reasoning). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor703 Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 When I read the other day that 40% of Millennials polled are ok with the gov't making speech deemed "offensive" illegal, I realized it was only a matter of time for the name. Being an millinial is embarrassing for me. We've pretty much made everything worse. The silent Native image from centuries past is a key element to the romantic myth that is Thanksgiving. It's kind of the same with sports teams. So are we just going to get to a point where people find a way to be offended by everything? I mean is this really where we're headed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixcuincle Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 How is that tweet even remotely offensive? HAPPY THANKSGIVING OH A POTENTIALLY RACIST ORGANIZATIONAL NAME WISHING EVERYONE A HAPPY THANKSGIVING HOW DARE THEY Reddit put it best. IF they told everyone to **** off during Thanksgiving they'd get ****. If they wish everyone a happy thanksgiving they get ****. Can't win with these people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHADES Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 So isnt Thanksgiving offensive itself then, never mind the logo relation..it's just ridiculous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss_Hogg Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 How is that tweet even remotely offensive? HAPPY THANKSGIVING OH A POTENTIALLY RACIST ORGANIZATIONAL NAME WISHING EVERYONE A HAPPY THANKSGIVING HOW DARE THEY Reddit put it best. IF they told everyone to **** off during Thanksgiving they'd get ****. If they wish everyone a happy thanksgiving they get ****. Can't win with these people. The team is under siege from Native Americans to drop the name and logo. In addition, Native American activist groups consider the thanksgiving holiday to be controversial and a painful reminder of genocide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss_Hogg Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 No other professional sports team with indigenous imagery tweeted "Happy Thanksgiving" today. Our team's social media department is ridiculously tone deaf and it's sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 The team is under siege from Native Americans to drop the name and logo. In addition, Native American activist groups consider the thanksgiving holiday to be controversial and a painful reminder of genocide. Native American activist groups (and, apparently, you) consider everything to be something to be twisted into a reference to genocide. It's the only hammer they've got. And therefore, everything in the world is a nail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander PK Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 When I read the other day that 40% of Millennials polled are ok with the gov't making speech deemed "offensive" illegal, I realized it was only a matter of time for the name. Scary Who gets to make the decision on what is "offensive"...the majority? The party who claims offense? The individual who claims offense? Liberal educators? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander PK Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 No other professional sports team with indigenous imagery tweeted "Happy Thanksgiving" today. Our team's social media department is ridiculously tone deaf and it's sad. America has been reduced to this. Happy Thanksgiving and Merry Christmas are now "offensive" statements, and somebody has to think about perception before stating them. I honestly don't recognize my own country anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss_Hogg Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 America has been reduced to this. Happy Thanksgiving and Merry Christmas are now "offensive" statements, and somebody has to think about perception before stating them. I honestly don't recognize my own country anymore. No one from the NCAI is complaining about a "Happy thanksgiving" tweet from the NY Giants. The problem is that our team has a controversial nickname and is viewed very negatively by many native Americans and the NCAI. There's a big difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 It takes a total Ralph to call the Redskins wishing everyone a happy thanksgiving a racist or insensitive move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dissident2 Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Would you settle for "unchallenged"? Cause what we've got, here, is mathematical evidence that the name of the football team is not offensive. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think "mathematical evidence" can be part of the equation (pardon the irony there) when deciding if something is "offensive" or not. And clearly there are thousands who find the name offensive. Probably hundreds of thousands. The best you can say is, "Most people don't find the name offensive." That doesn't and can never equate to "the name is conclusively and 'irrefutably' inoffensive." And, this may come as a surprise to you. But, if you ask people whether something is offensive, and 90% of them say "no", then it isn't. Even if a couple of people disagree with that. It may be "offensive to some of them". But it's not "offensive" (with no qualifier). LOL, yeah, that would come as a surprise, and I would reject that line of logic entirely. And yeah, you ABSOLUTELY need a qualifier. The qualifier being, "the majority don't find it offensive." Also, the fact that what's considered offensive tends to change over time would also demand a qualifier to someone declaring something - to use your word again - "irrefutably" unoffensive. Now, you can try to argue that "well, that's just the opinion (of 90% of the people)". But now your argument boils down to "nobody's opinion matters, except for mine". (I suppose that it's possible that your argument is "Offensive is an opinion, and opinions don;t matter, and therefore offensive is irrelevant and meaningless". But then you're also in the position of trying to tell me that my statement about the name being offensive is wrong, because offensive has no meaning. And I'll ignore you. Because you've told me to.) I think that's flawed logic that's at least in need of qualifiers. How does the above characterization, for instance, differ from someone saying something is 'irrefutably' unoffensive as you said in your earlier post? That also clearly equates to "nobody's opinion matters except for mine." Or even, "nobody's opinion matters whose opinion does not align with the majority." Talk about telling someone to "ignore you." Yeah, my argument is indeed that "offensive" is an opinion. But it is certainly not "opinions don't matter." The majority opinion should (usually) rule when it comes to legalities and policies in these cases, but that doesn't render a minority opinion meaningless, especially when those opinions are always changing. One of those 10 percent from the theoretical poll you mention isn't likely to change their personal opinion on whether or not something is offensive just because 90 percent say it isn't. No one's going to say, "Well, 90 percent of people don't find this offensive, so even though I once felt strongly that it was, I suppose it's not." No, they'll still be saying, "It still is offensive to me, and I will continue trying to convince others." And, when you ask people "is this offensive?". And 90% of them say "No". Then it's not offensive. That's not an opinion. That's a fact. For the 90 percent, yes, it's a fact. People's opinions change, over time. Things that weren't offensive, become so. And, this issue has received a whole lot of media attention. (Virtually all of it actively pushing a claim which isn't true, but which might someday become true.) I have said that I would not be at all surprised if the "percent offended" hasn't doubled, since Annenberg And I've said that, if it has doubled, then I think Snyder should change the name That no, I don't think the "percent offended" has to be a numerical majority, before it counts. All of that seems to conflict with your statement that it's an "irrefutable fact that the name is not offensive." If a "fact" can change over time, it's hardly a fact. It's simply a pervading opinion, a majority opinion that's becoming less of a majority with each passing year. The "fact" is that, based on the most current poll, most people don't find the name offensive. I agree that nothing going on now should FORCE Snyder to change the name. I just think it's a useless battle at this point. And yeah, my argument for the change is much more about it being better for business than it is about racism. I don't think the name is inherently racist at all, nor do I think it was born from racism as it relates to our team. That said, I think it's an outdated term, and I think the only place it has in today's vernacular is to describe a football team; I would personally never feel comfortable calling a NA a "redskin." I just think that it would benefit everyone to get ahead of this thing, make the change, keep everything else in tact, and move forward. In the meantime, I'll still be singing "Hail to the Redskins" as often as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 No other professional sports team with indigenous imagery tweeted "Happy Thanksgiving" today. Our team's social media department is ridiculously tone deaf and it's sad. So? Who cares? It's a ****ing sports team wishing it's fans a happy thanksgiving on a meaningless social media platform. If this is how you derive your importance in the world, I feel bad for you. Assholes literally looking for a reason to be outraged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss_Hogg Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 So? Who cares? It's a ****ing sports team wishing it's fans a happy thanksgiving on a meaningless social media platform. If this is how you derive your importance in the world, I feel bad for you. Assholes literally looking for a reason to be outraged. I'm not offended. I'm laying out reasons why some people thought it was an ill-advised tweet from a team with native imagery and a controversial Native American name on a holiday that may not be joyful for native Americans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diesel Hog Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 Scary Who gets to make the decision on what is "offensive"...the majority? The party who claims offense? The individual who claims offense? Liberal educators? Please don't associate this as a "liberal" vs. "conservative" thing. I'm pretty darn liberal, proud of it, and I don't have one damn problem with the Redskins name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 I'm not offended. I'm laying out reasons why some people thought it was an ill-advised tweet from a team with native imagery and a controversial Native American name on a holiday that may not be joyful for native Americans. Never said I thought you were personally. Most probably aren't. Some just want to be offended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander PK Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 Please don't associate this as a "liberal" vs. "conservative" thing. I'm pretty darn liberal, proud of it, and I don't have one damn problem with the Redskins name. Not trying to offend but I think that many of our problems in this country have to do with the indoctrination going on in our colleges and universities. Everything that came before the election of Barack Hussein Obama is wrong and racist. What we have with "the redskins name controversy" is a symptom of a larger problem. We must make life "fair" for everyone. If 1 person out of 10 has a problem than we all have a problem. It's bull **** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveakl Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 Atlanta Braves said happy thanksgiving Kansas City Chiefs said happy thanksgiving Chicago Blackhawks said happy thanksgiving Three sports. Three teams. I got tired of searching since I was three for three. No other professional sports team with indigenous imagery tweeted "Happy Thanksgiving" today. Our team's social media department is ridiculously tone deaf and it's sad. You know you are 100% wrong on this right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss_Hogg Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 Atlanta Braves said happy thanksgiving Kansas City Chiefs said happy thanksgiving Chicago Blackhawks said happy thanksgiving Three sports. Three teams. I got tired of searching since I was three for three. You know you are 100% wrong on this right? As of 1200 on 11/26/15 You are correct. I was however correct with my preliminary post this morning about our team being the only one...but now I see the KC tweet from 9 hours ago. I shoulda re-checked the Twitter before I made that post a few hours ago. Okay so lemme ask you this...why hasn't there been a huge internet backlash against the Chiefs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 The tweet above has over 3K retweets. 3k retweets? Crap man we're in trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 As of 1200 on 11/26/15 You are correct. I was however correct with my preliminary post this morning about our team being the only one...but now I see the KC tweet from 9 hours ago. I shoulda re-checked the Twitter before I made that post a few hours ago. Okay so lemme ask you this...why hasn't there been a huge internet backlash against the Chiefs? So not only were the Washington Redskins being nice, they were also the first team wirh an American Indian mascot to do so. And they still get **** on. There isn't an Internet backlash against the Chiefs because the Internet SJW's haven't decided to start attacking the Chiefs yet. 3k retweets? Crap man we're in trouble. I loled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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