Alaskins

The Official ES All Things Redskins Name Change Thread (Reboot Edition---Read New OP)

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Except he died a racist and never seemed to want to improve.

It took govt action just for him to field black players.

I get what you're trying to say as ppl do have the ability to change but it doesn't fit with Marshall at all

 

Well yeah Marshall is dead, it's too late obviously for him to change. But imagine in his time if instead of MLK you just had early Malcom X preaching intolerance and hatred instead of unity and dialogue. Things would have gotten even more violent, way more in fact. Marshall was old and stuck in his ways by that point of being forced to integrate, but is revising history to erase the memory of known racists really the best course of action or is it a way to ensure those past mistake repeat? If we can't separate positive accomplishments from character flaws due to the time period that were all too common, how can we truly move past it or understand it enough to change those people's minds while it's still possible?

 

Through such demonization, further demonization is taught to be used on people today. That doesn't end racism, it actually breeds it through resentment. I think it's far more powerful to have the GPM section as a reminder not only of his contributions to the NFL and how, like it or not, it might not be here today had he not been an owner, but also of how bad racism is and how it badly it can stain your legacy. If not for his flaws Marshall would be right up there with Halas in terms of importance. He is anyway, as far as the NFL goes, but that legacy has been lost due to his racism. That's a valuable lesson that shouldn't be erased.

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106.7 The Fan @1067thefandc 2m

Native American group to bring $9 billion lawsuit against Cleveland Indians for "offensive" name/logo http://cbsloc.al/1lcEAa2  via @923TheFan

 

 

 


The Cleveland Indians, of Major League Baseball, have come under fire from a Native American group planning to file a federal lawsuit against the Indians’ “offensive” Chief Wahoo logo, according to CBS Cleveland.

 

The lawsuit, according to the report, is being filed by Robert Roche, a Chiricahua Apache and director of the American Indian Education Center — based in Parma, OH, roughly 20 miles south of Cleveland — and is seeking $9 billion for “a hundred years of disparity, racism, exploitation and profiteering,” claiming the team’s name and logo are “racist.”


Yes, "billion" with a "B".

 

And apparently, all they need to do is show that they are offended to win.

 

 

*************


Rick Snider @Snide_Remarks 28m

Not saying papers can't report on name issue, just saying bad precedent to pick what names to use. Let columnists have a say, not reporters.

 

As to reporters who once used Redskins who are now enlightened - how nice for you. Easy to do from afar.

Edited by Califan007

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Have you ever known anybody who was actually subjected GPM's racism? 

 

Not to make a joke, but this made me laugh.  

 

Have you been subjected ? For that matter... have any NA's ?

 

Hmm... What in the hell does that have to do with the current name ?

 

Nothing. Not even a little bit.

Edited by Kosher Ham
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Long winded rant

What facts did I announce? I wasn't speaking for all NAs, just the ones I know and my main point was how everyone was dismissing that minority's viewpoints.

But continue to use the lame humor to paint the bs you're spewing

This is my original post:

I just can't get over the fact that you're telling people to just get over something that offends them and their people and that they're basically wrong/misinformed/whatever for feeling that way. That is asinine, especially when you're not Native American.

I'm talking about those that are offended. Those are real people right? I don't believe I made them up.

Read next time

Edited by BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

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If you met Bobby Mitchell and he brought up his discomfort with the team continuing to honoring GPM, would you remind him that 'it was a long time ago, and thus insignificant bc we've learned better today'?

 

No reports on what's happened since GPM, just first hand accounts from a living, breathing AA fan who grew up in the Shaw neighborhood in the 1950s, one who is still a fan who wears his colors almost every time I see him, despite his family splitting bt us and Dallas. I'm sure you could school him on now vs. then. 

 

I'll be interested to follow your pursuit of the Buffalo Bills name change. I hope you can garner Native support. Until there's someone else on that train besides you, I likely won't be interested.

You got a lot of "ifs" with practically every post you make.

is bobby Mitchell one of those black fans sitting in that section?

does he have a choice to go to the game or sit somewhere else?

Did he BEAT George Preston Marshall and DESTROY the final color wall in the NFL?

 

the guy is the founder. Like i said,,  Washington owned slaves. why would Bobby Mitchell be worried over the name on the wall and not the one on the city?

 

For the record, I don't know why you think i personally will be going after the Bills name.

I merely bring it up to illustrate your hypocrisy, and the stupidity of the rest of the herd that doesn't care beyond the most easily grasped suggestions.

I've said from the get-go that these decisions are not mine to make. There is not a football team named after red-heads of russian / english descent, so I don't really have to worry over whether or not I should be offended.

However YOU have taken it upon yourself to BE offended for others, and yet the single most offensive name in all of pro sports..  you're not interested..   the Bills name is the worst by a matter of historical fact, not an intangible like 'offensive language'.

the fact you whine over Marshall's "legacy" of defeat and don't care that this man who did more to destroy the Native way of life is recognized as a national hero says a lot for you.

 

You're like any other.

You're only concerned about this because of how it makes YOU feel. Since the Bills isn't your team, and since it doesn't affect you, you don't really care about a REAL insult.. and a heavy one at that.

 

Plastic, man. Artificial, self centered tunnel vision, pretending to care, but only as far your own conscience sees.

Who's land is your house on, white man?

Why are you still in it?

 

~Bang

Edited by Bang

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Thinking that you get to decide what is and isn't relevant when dealing with an angry offended individual in regards to their own race is arrogant and foolish. Even considering responding to claims of long lived persecution as a guilt trip is laughable.

Your advice works for typing arguments on the internet, otherwise it's terrible advice.

 

Not when they are using their offense to force me to change what I celebrate and what the team is named. They have every right to feel any way they want, but if they are going to advocate a change then it has to be justified.

 

Thinking that any offended person gets a free pass on their reasons because they are of a different race is foolish. My advice works for creating a dialogue, the most constructive method in finding a solution or changing someone's mind.

 

Responding to UNRELATED claims of long-lived persecution as a guilt trip is justifiable. IMO it's dishonorable to the past atrocities to try and use them to guilt a football team into changing it's name. How about the larger argument of removing NA themes from all sports? If someone says they want the Braves team name removed because of their ancestors being persecuted, in what way are the two related? You just going to reply "ok," or are you going to say you disagree, or what?

 

My advice works for anyone interested in creating a dialogue. Your advice works for giving someone a free pass to do whatever based on race.

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Ouch.

 

I wonder what these people fighting for the change gain. I know I stated that earlier.

 

It just seems so absurd to me.

 

Especially the ones that are not NA. That's just laughable to me as an NA.

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I walk around with gear all the time, have a sticker on my truck, I have gotten mostly supportive comments tbh. I did have a couple convo's that started out negative and as I explained some of the facts on the name, logo, etc... they said hmmm. Why don't we hear that side? They all agree this is media driven/ 

 

I didn't say what they will say to me :)

 

The point I was trying to make is that it's a topic now.  Whether or not people agree / disagree, it's a subject that is now brought into the conversation pretty much every time I talk about the Redskins.

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Ok, the whole Tammany-Boston Braves thing is indeed true. I'd not heard that before, but it basically goes into where the baseball team got its identity from. Since the Redskins piggy-backed off of the baseball Brave's identity, it applies to them as well.

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deleted.  Typed a huge response to a post that I misread.  Now I guess I'll see if I want to construct a huge post, now that I've re-read the post. 

Edited by Larry

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Exactly. Try walking around with a Redskins shirt or hat.  Someone will say something to you.  It's just a lightening rod issue now, and it's only going to intensify.  

 

I don't want the name to change, but if the alternative is the crap-storm it's causing year round, I'd rather just change it, and get back to talking football.

 

I just got back from a 10 day sabbatical at the Happiest Place on Earth, Disney World.

 

I wore a Redskins shirt or hat everyday I went to the parks. Not ONE person made a comment about racism or prejudice. I did however experience some thumbs up and some good natured trolling from Cowboys fans.

 

A Disney Security guard even came up to me and said "You know, I'm from Philadelphia., I'm a die-hard Eagles fan and I've always hated your team...but I'm with you guys on this name change bull ****. I plan on supporting your team when they don't play the Eagles.

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 They have every right to feel any way they want, but if they are going to advocate a change then it has to be justified.

 

Thinking that any offended person gets a free pass on their reasons because they are of a different race is foolish. My advice works for creating a dialogue, the most constructive method in finding a solution or changing someone's mind.

 

 

Good points.

 

It's amazing to me that most folks that are offended and want to change it, are not NA.

 

Wait...is "folks" offensive ? Perhaps I should say "you people".  Not meaning you elka, just trying to express how absurd this whole thing is.

 

Thank you.

Edited by Kosher Ham

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Wait...is "folks" offensive ? Perhaps I should say "you people". 

It could be argued that "you people" could be just as offensive. It depends on the context.

 

 

lol

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106.7 The Fan @1067thefandc 2m

Native American group to bring $9 billion lawsuit against Cleveland Indians for "offensive" name/logo http://cbsloc.al/1lcEAa2  via @923TheFan

 

 

 

Yes, "billion" with a "B".

 

And apparently, all they need to do is show that they are offended to win.

 

 

*************

Rick Snider @Snide_Remarks 28m

Not saying papers can't report on name issue, just saying bad precedent to pick what names to use. Let columnists have a say, not reporters.

 

As to reporters who once used Redskins who are now enlightened - how nice for you. Easy to do from afar.

 

I get the logo because it's cartoonish and that is demeaning. But the name? NAs use it all the time as a descriptor. The group suing has Indians in their name.This looks like just another domino tactic, putting the threat of money loss behind what is perceived to be an easy target.

 

What court is going to allow that precedent to be set though?

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I just got back from a 10 day sabbatical at the Happiest Place on Earth, Disney World.

 

I wore a Redskins shirt or hat everyday I went to the parks. Not ONE person made a comment about racism or prejudice. I did however experience some thumbs up and some good natured trolling from Cowboys fans.

 

A Disney Security guard even came up to me and said "You know, I'm from Philadelphia., I'm a die-hard Eagles fan and I've always hated your team...but I'm with you guys on this name change bull ****. I plan on supporting your team when they don't play the Eagles.

The point I was trying to make is that it's a topic now.  Whether or not people agree / disagree, it's a subject that is now brought into the conversation pretty much every time I talk about the Redskins.

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I had a guy make a comment about my t-shirt in line at the grocery store. He was against it, but he was very conversational and friendly and we talked about it for a minute or two, then had a smile, a "take it easy" and went on our way. 

 

i actually kind of enjoyed it. But, i am that guy who talks to strangers in line at the grocery store anyway :D

 

~Bang

Edited by Bang

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I live in Mobile, Al. & I work with people who regularly give me a hard time about the name. A couple of them are mostly joking & as with the rest of us, once I explain what is really going on & the facts of the situation, I get a "hmm..." response & the recognition that what they thought they knew was apparently misguided.

 

I do have one guy here who apparently is on board with the name change & regardless of facts I throw at him, he only can say to me, "it's derogatory." He has no facts or grounds in which to back that up, he can't even tell me where he originally heard it, just that he believes that over all the evidence I have shown him. I asked him one day if he knew who Ray Halbritter was. He said, "No, who is he?" So I start telling him about his crooked plan to take land that doesn't belong to him & how he is using this argument to win public approval & become a hero so that when he takes land that isn't rightfully his, people will basically give him a pass. He walked away shaking his head & trying to shame me as though I'm trying to justify myself. His kind of blatant ignorance is what I really can't stand.

 

Beyond that, I rarely hear anything negative except for the usual "Redskins suck" from various opposing team fans. Occasionally someone will stop me in Walmart & ask about it & again, when I explain it, they look as though they are satisfied with my answer & their newly acquired education on the subject. And I wear my Redskins stuff everywhere. So, I don't really think those that are trying to gain ground on the subject are doing so as well as they think. All it takes is for someone like us to inject truth & facts into the conversation & that generally changes the whole direction of it.

 

Nothing is going to sway me from being proud of my Redskins fandom & heritage. I love my Redskins, I love what we stand for & who we represent & that we do it with pride & honor. Never, in my 40 years of life have I ever seen a Redskins fan mocking the very things we proudly represent. Never have I seen a Redskins fan making fun of the logo, the name or the people that those 2 honor. I am proud to be a Die-Hard Redskins fan. And that will NEVER change, whether the name does or not.

 

Hail to the Redskins! 

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It could be argued that "you people" could be just as offensive. It depends on the context.

 

 

lol

 

That was the point. I made an edit to clarify, I think...

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9 Billion from 1 team?  That's more than I figured they would go after.  You can't win with your initial plan for compensation of money, health care, education, etc. so let's move on to plan B to get the money you want and it's working.  Attacking the largest entertainment industries worth billions.  Unbelievable.

 

Well guess what, a lot of law suits from all aspects are going to be hitting everywhere if this thing goes through.

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I have 2 major problems with the recent movement of the goalposts.

1) we now find ourselves back on the whole who's offended, & if they are...that is all that matters. As I have said before...you get to be offended, you don't get to tell me what I should do with my business over it. So yes...In fewer words, get over it. Especially when your basis of argument is incorrect. This lends your argument to the idea that how SOME people FEEL is all that matters in any discussion. ..While I would argue that this mentality is what keeps us 10 hairs short of apedom. We will not progress as a society until we can compartmentalize fact from emotions when making judgements or decisions. We will spin our wheels, & encourage weak minded thinking, & will devolve into a society of empaths with no direction. We should strive to be more like Spock, & less like Mr. Wise....whining about any perceived injustice that makes us feel better about ourselves. There's no progress in it...NONE.

2) this is exactly like a sect of people who have a belief. This belief is maintained on pseudo-science, begotten from interwebs travel, & agenda manipulation. It started from 1 dangerously farcical article, spread from celebrity to sheeple, & spread like wildfire. Now we are seeing the real impact that these science deniers have caused by BELIEVING their own gobbledygook, as opposed to sitting at a table & discussing facts objectively like intelligent human beings. You cannot tell these people they are wrong without being "offensive." You cannot make statements, or support your argument with facts or peer reviewed science to these people & not get called names, or get yelled at with elongated diatribes rooted in ignorance, & "feelings" about their position.

I'm talking about anti-vaccers, & those who believe that vaccines cause Autism. My son is Autistic, & it offends me that these people even have a podium to shout from. I will readily admit that the consequences of this particular case are much more damaging, & dangerous...but I will also point out that these 2 systems of thought police are rooted in the same process of thinking. So one process begets the other. They are equally dangerous imo...As this type of thinking necessarily equates to negative impact.

Every fact must be scrutinized until a consensus is made...OBJECTIVELY. Every position must be heard within reason...so long as reason & sense is applied. If all you have to show for your beliefs are your "feelings" on the subject, then yes...you ABSOLUTELY deserve to be ignored, & uncountable in the discussion. ...& though it sounds callous. ..it simply is truth.period.

I cannot stress enough that this this way of thinking os offensive because it is dangerous in an intelligent society. If we cannot compartmentalize our feelings from the facts & make a sound argument about our positions REGARDLESS OF WHAT LEVEL OF OPPRESSION WE HAVE ENDURED...then I'm sorry. ..we have a looooooong way to go. A looooong, looooooong way to go. And frankly. ..it disgusts me.

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Nothing is going to sway me from being proud of my Redskins fandom & heritage. I love my Redskins, I love what we stand for & who we represent & that we do it with pride & honor. Never, in my 40 years of life have I ever seen a Redskins fan mocking the very things we proudly represent. Never have I seen a Redskins fan making fun of the logo, the name or the people that those 2 honor. I am proud to be a Die-Hard Redskins fan. And that will NEVER change, whether the name does or not.

 

Hail to the Redskins! 

 

 

I agree with all of this.

 

And yet, I think it is time to change the name to a different descriptor for Native Americans.  

 

Funny how that works.

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I think we should all divide, be with like minded people and fight to the death. If my opinion is different then yours, then we must dual. This is the only cure all.

Unfortunately, only one man or woman or transgender or confused person will be left. Hope I didn't miss anyone with my generic categories.

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Have NO idea how true it is, hoping it is indeed true, but...

 

Kerry J. Byrne @footballfacts 1h

Inspiration 4 @Redskins name, logo was patriotic hero celebrated by Founding Fathers @bostonherald #redskins http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/opinion/op_ed/2014/06/byrne_redskins_a_tribute_to_popular_chief 

This has been posted before, but this thread is quite long.  Longer version of argument from same author:

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/hail-to-the-redskins-nfl-must-save-name-image-legacy/25861/

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I have 2 major problems with the recent movement of the goalposts.

1) we now find ourselves back on the whole who's offended, & if they are...that is all that matters. As I have said before...you get to be offended, you don't get to tell me what I should do with my business over it. So yes...In fewer words, get over it. Especially when your basis of argument is incorrect. This lends your argument to the idea that how SOME people FEEL is all that matters in any discussion. ..While I would argue that this mentality is what keeps us 10 hairs short of apedom. We will not progress as a society until we can compartmentalize fact from emotions when making judgements or decisions. We will spin our wheels, & encourage weak minded thinking, & will devolve into a society of empaths with no direction. We should strive to be more like Spock, & less like Mr. Wise....whining about any perceived injustice that makes us feel better about ourselves. There's no progress in it...NONE.

2) this is exactly like a sect of people who have a belief. This belief is maintained on pseudo-science, begotten from interwebs travel, & agenda manipulation. It started from 1 dangerously farcical article, spread from celebrity to sheeple, & spread like wildfire. Now we are seeing the real impact that these science deniers have caused by BELIEVING their own gobbledygook, as opposed to sitting at a table & discussing facts objectively like intelligent human beings. You cannot tell these people they are wrong without being "offensive." You cannot make statements, or support your argument with facts or peer reviewed science to these people & not get called names, or get yelled at with elongated diatribes rooted in ignorance, & "feelings" about their position.

I'm talking about anti-vaccers, & those who believe that vaccines cause Autism. My son is Autistic, & it offends me that these people even have a podium to shout from. I will readily admit that the consequences of this particular case are much more damaging, & dangerous...but I will also point out that these 2 systems of thought police are rooted in the same process of thinking. So one process begets the other. They are equally dangerous imo...As this type of thinking necessarily equates to negative impact.

Every fact must be scrutinized until a consensus is made...OBJECTIVELY. Every position must be heard within reason...so long as reason & sense is applied. If all you have to show for your beliefs are your "feelings" on the subject, then yes...you ABSOLUTELY deserve to be ignored, & uncountable in the discussion. ...& though it sounds callous. ..it simply is truth.period.

I cannot stress enough that this this way of thinking os offensive because it is dangerous in an intelligent society. If we cannot compartmentalize our feelings from the facts & make a sound argument about our positions REGARDLESS OF WHAT LEVEL OF OPPRESSION WE HAVE ENDURED...then I'm sorry. ..we have a looooooong way to go. A looooong, looooooong way to go. And frankly. ..it disgusts me.

 

 

I know I am quoting a long post here (sorry mods) but I really have a problem with this post.

 

We are not talking about science, where there is an objective answer.  We are not talking about vaccines, where people's misbeliefs cause children to die.  We are talking about a football team's name, a name that is awkward.  

 

Listening to some posters on here talking about how we have to keep calling the team "Redskins" or Western Civilization will fall drives me crazy.  

 

It is just a football team's name.  It is not "dangerous" to think that the name is insensitive.  It is not "stupid" to disagree on what points are more important in the discussion.  It should not "disgust" you that people honestly disagree with you on a question of evolving social mores.  I am not a "sheep" who should be compared to an anti-vaxxer just because I think the language has evolved past the comfortable use of this particular word.  

 

I understand that people are going to disagree with me.  Fans want to keep the names they know.  That's fine.  But there is something wrong with the tone of this discussion.  

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I do have one guy here who apparently is on board with the name change & regardless of facts I throw at him, he only can say to me, "it's derogatory." He has no facts or grounds in which to back that up, he can't even tell me where he originally heard it, just that he believes that over all the evidence I have shown him. I asked him one day if he knew who Ray Halbritter was. He said, "No, who is he?" So I start telling him about his crooked plan to take land that doesn't belong to him & how he is using this argument to win public approval & become a hero so that when he takes land that isn't rightfully his, people will basically give him a pass. He walked away shaking his head & trying to shame me as though I'm trying to justify myself. His kind of blatant ignorance is what I really can't stand.

 

Try living in Massachusetts! :-)

 

With very few exceptions I am routinely told that any name with <color>skins is by nature offensive. Just put a color there and you are a racist.

 

When I counter that the name is a self-descriptor with a long history, I'm told that times change and regardless of whether or not NAs call or called themselves that, it's still bad.

 

When I present reasons why the movement isn't what it seems I'm told it doesn't matter because the word itself is the problem and I need to accept that times are changing and the name is no longer acceptable.

 

If I say that there is support amongst NAs for the name, I'm told that those people are misguided and the name needs to change.

 

See a pattern here?

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