Israel-Palestine kerfuffle

[visionary]

Hillary and the Egyptian foreign minister just announced the ceasefire on tv.

Now we have to see if the parties can hold to it.

And if Hamas will be able to stop other groups in Gaza as well, and what will happen if they can't.

And also if there will be any long term policy changes after this on any side.

Egypt and Hamas are under a lot of pressure to ensure some sort of change in Israel's policies and Israel is under internal pressure to find a long term solution to the rockets.

Interesting if true. Although I'm not sure what our position was before this.

https://twitter.com/Rushdibbc

Hamas source" Israel did not pledge to lift the siege on Gaza, but the US will not oppose the opening of the crossing for people and goods

12:47 PM

Hamas source: Israel will stop assassinating armed factions activists, easing the restrictions on the entry of goods from Israel into Gaza

12:53 PM

http://blogs.aljazeera.com/topic/gaza/ceasefire-deal-agreed-between-israel-and-palestinians-gaza-comes-egyptian-guarantees

Ceasefire deal agreed between Israel and the Palestinians in Gaza comes with Egyptian "guarantees", sources say

The ceasefire deal agreed between Israel and the Palestinians in Gaza comes with Egyptian "guarantees", an Egyptian source close to truce talks told Reuters on Wednesday.

The source also said the truce included an end to "assassinations" and "incursions" and would ease movement of Palestinians. Egypt mediated the deal.

According to reporters in Gaza there are still some rockets being shot off towards Israel....

I really hope they don't result in casualties.

Also curious as to if this is Hamas getting in some last shots or some 3rd parties trying to scuttle things.

[JMS]

I guess my one question would be why is Israel continuing to blockade Gaza or Palestine?

Because Gaza is shooting rockets at southern Israel and it's ruled by the terrorists of Hamas an organization which doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist and targets Israel with suicide bombings and such. Israel is both trying to block Gaza from getting weapons, attriting Hamas, as well as perhaps punishing the people of Gaza for having elected Hamas... or alternatively stopping Hamas from ruling successfully and making the Palestinians lives better thus ensuring Hamas pays a political price for their ongoing hostilities shown towards Israel..

And why does Hamas want to shoot up Israel so bad?

It's like you have a house right... it's been your families home for generations maybe thousands of years.. One day a guy shows up and pulls a gun and say's your house is his house now.... You and your children will go and live in this cement town which he has allowed humanitarian groups to build for you... Maybe you don't go and they kill somebody in your family.. or they kill your neighbor. Or maybe they killed your family and then moved in.... but once you do go you are never are allowed back... For the next 50-60-70 years those guys live in your house eat the food grown on your farm, drink the water from your well and prosper as you and your family are kept in poverty... What would you do?

The country of Israel was founded on top of a populated country which had been around for thousands of years. Displaced european war refugee's decended upon that country and displaced the folks who lived there via threats, intimidation and war.

What would you do? Maybe you would deny the right of those guys to form the country of Israel on your land, maybe you would blow up women and children and become a vindictive SOB trying to hurt those people at any cost... Only of coarse you wouldn't be hurting the exact person who harmed you... you would be hurting someone new and thus perpetrating the same kind of event that made you such an SOB... Maybe eventually you try to negotiate a peace and get on with your life... maybe even accept some sort of settlement offer which would compensate you for your loss or seek a right of return to your home in exchange for peace... These are the things the peace process is struggling with. The taking of land from the Palestinians through force of arms and the keeping of that land through force is the underlying reason for why the Palestinians are fighting... or if they are trying to negotiate what they are negotiating for. The right of return to their homes, the right to a contiguous economically viable state, the right to dig wells on the lands they live in today.

Ultimately though just like on the Israeli side.. there is no military solution on the table for the Palestinians so being a vindictive SOB might be reasonable on either side, but it's ultimately not helpful and won't lead to a solution.

I guess there is no answer.

I think their is always an answer. Having a war for decades or living in continual hostilities is unnatural.

It all comes down to hatred. They hate each other, plain and simple. Until there is acceptance there will always be war. .

Yeah there is definitely reasons behind the hatred.. you blew up my house, shot my kid, killed my sister, brother, father... I think it's reasonable to understand that these folks aren't crazy on either side but have valid points.

However, 1999 was the last complete year when nobody died due to terrorism. That wasn't really that long ago. What it took was a committed US administration strong arming all sides to not strike the other, while actively working to make the situation on the ground better... Man we were so close...

[visionary]

https://twitter.com/arwaCNN

just back from hospital, dr's 2yro son killed this afternoon...ceasefire supposed to go into effect in 45mins...

1:12 PM

4 rockets just fired out of gaza towards israel

1:18 PM

and there is the incoming from israel 2 gaza...40 minutes to "ceasefire"

1:21 PM

Dumbasses in Lebanon are now firing rockets into...Lebanon.

https://twitter.com/Elizrael

2 rockets were fired from Lebanon in the direction of Israel but landed in Lebanon instead. (Channel 10)

1:26 PM

https://twitter.com/iyad_elbaghdadi

Meanwhile, Israel says that rockets/mortars were fired a little while ago from Lebanon as well, no damage.

1:27 PM

https://twitter.com/JonDonnison

Hamas & Islamic Jihad both said fired rockets after deal announced. 1 killed in Israel airstrike since deal too. Ceasefire to kick in 25 min

1:33 PM

Drones still droning overhead in Gaza

1:34 PM

https://twitter.com/pdanahar

Out going followed by incoming in last few seconds in Gaza

1:45 PM

https://twitter.com/bbclysedoucet

15 min to go..huge blast of an Israel strike on Gaza

1:45 PM

https://twitter.com/bencnn

Two outgoing rockets now, one big explosion near by. Gaza 15 minutes go. Another boom now

1:45 PM

https://twitter.com/ahauslohner

15 min before ceasefire, 2 more strikes in Gaza City

1:47 PM

Bibi is speaking now on tv.

Thanking international leaders and now singling out Obama and Clinton for helping support the offensive and the iron dome.

https://twitter.com/BarakRavid

PM Netanyahu: I know many people wanted a stronger military operation, but a durable cease fire is what's right for Israel at this timing

1:51 PM

https://twitter.com/pdanahar

As Netanyahu explains the ceasefire deal on israeli TV, iIDF rounds are still landing here in Gaza

1:52 PM

https://twitter.com/erinmcunningham

That was a big one - five strikes in five mins, 8 mins till ceasefire gaza

1:51 PM

[Thiebear]

Tomorrow we go back to the Territory of May 1967: Does that satisfy the Israeli obligation and end the rockets? Y/N

[JMS]

Tomorrow we go back to the Territory of May 1967: Does that satisfy the Israeli obligation and end the rockets? Y/N

Nobody can really know... Mostly because nobody talks consistently to Hamas and Hezbollah the two main antagonists here for Israel. Nobody talks to them cause they are terrorist organizations which conduct suicide bombings and such.and the cost for conversations with the west and Israel is (1) you must recognize Israel's right to exist. (2) you must renounce violence as a means to further your position.. Hezbollah and Hamas don't meet these criteria.

We do know that Hamas has told Jimmy Carter and other Western delegations that any peace deal with Israel negotiated by the Palestinian Authority would be supported by Hamas if

it was put forward to a vote by the Palestinian people.

We also know Hezbollah has said they are fighting in order to regain all of the lands occupied by Israel from Lebanon. This now boils down to area inside the Israeli annexed Golan Heights called the Shebaa farms

Israel annexed after 67 claiming it belonged to Syria. Syria and Lebanon have both said the land belongs to Lebanon.

We also know the Arab League has put forward a plan to normalize relations with Israel in return for a return by Israel to the 1967 boarders.. The Arab League declined an invitation by Israel to discuss or negotiate on this "plan".

that's been out there since the late Clinton Administration and has been reiterated a few times by various Arab states.. The king of Saudi Arabia is it's chief architect.

But Israel would never return to the 1967 boarders as they have about 300,000 citizens living outside of those boarders in the West Bank as well as the city of Jerusalem is outside of those boarders...

So not even the peace process calls for what you are proposing.. Rather the peace process calls for the 67 boarders being the starting place for peace negotiations... This format was negotiated by Israel

in the 80's and 90's and something the current government of Israel doesn't support.

So although we cannot be certain I would say... Yes..

(1) Israel offered this in the 1970's in exchange for peace and was rebuffed.

(2) This is what the Arabs have been calling for since the early 1980's only to be rebuffed by a strengthened Israel.

(3) It's entirely not practical to even entertain this idea though because the Israeli's have no faith in any Arab leader much less Palestinian leader to be trusted with that much territory on her boarders. Not even mentioning the incredible hard sacrifice that would call on Israel to make.

[visionary]

Ceasefire is supposed to start now, rockets and airstrikes have been going on up to the minute until now.

Anderson Cooper is in Jerusalem now, live on CNN.

Rockets seem to have stopped at the moment.

Airstrikes too, though drones remain in the air in Gaza.

They're discussing other groups in Gaza now, and if Hamas can get them to go along.

Hmmm. Ben Wedeman just said he heard an explosion in Gaza in the distance.

Other reporters in Gaza as well are reporting at least one incoming shot from Israel still.

So far just the one reported, may be an isolated mistake by someone.

https://twitter.com/pdanahar

Just before ceasefire israel killed one islamic jihad fighter and injured 10 of their members

2:08 PM

'Alahu Akhbar 'now playing on mosque speakers in Gaza accompanied by whirr of drones

2:09 PM

[Larry]

Tomorrow we go back to the Territory of May 1967: Does that satisfy the Israeli obligation and end the rockets? Y/N

I guarantee that some people would claim it's not enough.

For example, some will point at Jerusalem. (Or was your hypothetical including that, too?)

But yeah, I think it would go one hell of a way towards it.

Lord knows that if I were POTUS, I'd sure be willing to commit a lot, to see that option implemented, and to help it prosper.

[visionary]

https://twitter.com/BreakingNews

Hamas leader says cease-fire deal includes opening of all Gaza crossings, including with Egypt - @AP

3:30 PM

I doubt it.

https://twitter.com/PJCrowley

The Hamas press conference continues unabated. It could end up being longer than the ceasefire negotiation.

3:31 PM

Celebrations are going on all throughout Gaza now.

https://twitter.com/bencnn

Celebratory gunfire-automatic-is intensifying, mosque loudspeaker announcing victory for gaza

2:19 PM

Amazing how quickly Gaza City has re-emerged. Cars, people, can hear horns, whistles and cheers.

2:42 PM

The streets of Gaza have drowned out the drones.

3:34 PM

https://twitter.com/arwaCNN

gaza celebrates ceasefire pic.twitter.com/j688MLfC

3:00 PM

Those celebrating in the street in Gaza feel that this is a victory 4 them, that they withstood Israel aggression

3:20 PM

At the same time sense that its only a matter of time b4 conflict flares again, but 4 now ppl just happy 2 b able 2 go out Gaza

3:22 PM

Traffic jam cause so many celebrating below & ppl just happy 2 b out pic.twitter.com/01G2TpB3

3:27 PM

On the other hand:

http://blogs.aljazeera.com/topic/gaza/israeli-official-palestinian-fighters-gaza-launch-12-rockets-israel-during-hour-after

Israeli official: Palestinian fighters in Gaza launch 12 rockets into Israel during the hour after a truce was announced

Palestinian fighters in the Gaza Strip launched 12 rockets into Israel during the hour after a ceasefire was announced with Israel, an Israeli police spokesman said.

Israel and Hamas movement agreed to an Egyptian-sponsored ceasefire that came into effect at 9 p.m. (1900 GMT) to halt an eight-day conflict around the Gaza Strip that has killed more than 140 Palestinians and five Israelis.

Spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said the 12 rockets landed in open areas and caused no damage or casualties.

[Thiebear]

I guarantee that some people would claim it's not enough.

For example, some will point at Jerusalem. (Or was your hypothetical including that, too?)

But yeah, I think it would go one hell of a way towards it.

Lord knows that if I were POTUS, I'd sure be willing to commit a lot, to see that option implemented, and to help it prosper.

I guess what I'm saying is a war was declared

Against Israel when the 1947/1967 borders were in effect.

So now were supposed to believe that what we

All know will be less than that should be considered

Optimal for peace. When the countries pretending

To be the Palestinian friends NEED them to suffer

And die sabotage it all at every turn.

Iran and their controlled little countries

Need reigned in also for anything to work

[Larry]

I guess what I'm saying is a war was declared

Against Israel when the 1947/1967 borders were in effect.

And therefore?

(And I'm assuming you are correct. I was under the impression that few, if any, of the Arab-Israeli wars were actually declared. But I'll admit that it's just a WAG.)

[visionary]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/22/world/middleeast/egypt-leader-and-obama-forge-link-in-gaza-deal.html?pagewanted=1&seid=auto&smid=tw-nytimesworld&_r=0

Egypt’s Leader Is Crucial Link in Gaza Deal

President Obama skipped dessert at a long summit meeting dinner in Cambodia on Monday to rush back to his hotel suite. It was after 11:30 p.m., and his mind was on rockets in Gaza rather than Asian diplomacy. He picked up the telephone to call the Egyptian leader who is the new wild card in his Middle East calculations.

Over the course of the next 25 minutes, he and President Mohamed Morsi of Egypt hashed through ways to end the latest eruption of violence, a conversation that would lead Mr. Obama to send Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton to the region. As he and Mr. Morsi talked, Mr. Obama felt they were making a connection. Three hours later, at 2:30 in the morning, they talked again.

The cease-fire brokered between Israel and Hamas on Wednesday was the official unveiling of this unlikely new geopolitical partnership, one with bracing potential if not a fair measure of risk for both men. After a rocky start to their relationship, Mr. Obama has decided to invest heavily in the leader whose election caused concern because of his ties to the Muslim Brotherhood, seeing in him an intermediary who might help make progress in the Middle East beyond the current crisis in Gaza.

The White House phone log tells part of the tale. Mr. Obama talked with Mr. Morsi three times within 24 hours and six times over the course of several days, an unusual amount of one-on-one time for a president. Mr. Obama told aides he was impressed with the Egyptian leader’s pragmatic confidence. He sensed an engineer’s precision with surprisingly little ideology. Most important, Mr. Obama told aides that he considered Mr. Morsi a straight shooter who delivered on what he promised and did not promise what he could not deliver.

[Larry]

Yeah, if this works out, Egypt might come out of it with a lot of political capital. Possibly holding chips from the US, Israel, and from the Islamic world.

(Which, in turn, might help his own position, too.).

Heck, something GOOD might come out of this.

(And, if Obama is a big enough man to give Egypt the credit, then that might be a really good move in the chess game, too.)

[Thiebear]

JMS: not to quote all of that, I would agree.

Israel is asked to give up quite a lot of 'security' it has been given

Or Taken.

With peace being the reward offered by everyone

Except the behind the scenes aggressors Iran and its controlled regional assets

[JMS]

I guess what I'm saying is a war was declared

Against Israel when the 1947/1967 borders were in effect.

well it's a toss up between who attacked who in 47. It is pretty clear however Israel attacked first in 1967. neither side debates that as Israel destroyed the numerically superior Egyptian airforce largely on the ground in a supprise attack.

But you are right, The Palestinian negotiation postions have changed; but so have the Israeli position. Depending upon whom has the percieved upper hand their negotiation positions have hardenned and the other sides has changed...

From 47 up until camp david accords Israel for example was asking for negotiations and was more aggressive in seeking a negotiated settlement. The Palistinians refused to negotiate. After Camp David which took the largest existential threat to Israel off the table and increased us aid... That changed.. From the early 1980's it's been the Palistinians who have been seeking negotiations and it's been the Israeli's who have been more intrangizent...

For most of the 1970's for example Israel was offering the west bank and a return to the 67 boarders in exchange for peace. By the time in the early 1980's when the Palistinians would agree to this deal; the Israeli's were no longer offering it.

Iran and their controlled little countries

Need reigned in also for anything to work

Iran is Sharia and Hamas are Sunny radicals. They are not natural allies; and Hamas has already said as long as any deal was put up for a popular vote they would support it... But who knows. Hell we don't even talk directly to Hamas and for the most part Israel doesn't either.

[Jumbo]

For some reason, every time I see this thread title, I hear the first line of the old Kingston Trio song, "They're Rioting in Africa", in my head.

[JMS]

JMS: not to quote all of that, I would agree.

Israel is asked to give up quite a lot of 'security' it has been given

Or Taken.

With peace being the reward offered by everyone

Except the behind the scenes aggressors Iran and its controlled regional assets

I guess my position is you have to take this thing in baby steps. Like Clinton to his credit almost did.. ( which galls me to say ).. We are no where near a place where even moderates in Israel could support the kinds of sacrifices necessary for peace. Everybody knows the formula, land for peace. Both sides have agreed to this principle. All we are doing for the last 15 years is haggling over terms.

That's why all the fighting doesn't make any real sense.. The rockets into Israel are not an existential threat to Israel, they are a major annoyance who's biggest impact is economic. The more potent missiles bombs and artillery shells into Gaza aren't a serious threat to Hamas either. They kill more innocents than Hamas, they are more of an annoyance to Hamas not an existential threat. What both things do though is radicalize the rank and file and make an eventual peace further away.. How can Israel trust the Palestinians with more land and less secure boarders for themselves with Hamas shooting rockets off? How can Hamas accept the sacrifices they will certainly have to make when Israel is killing folks by the score and assassinating their leaders?

Our position should be to tamp down the violence... Improve the lives of the Palestinians so they have something to loose, Try to grow more moderates on both sides and gradually get them back into talks. Finally we prepare ourselves politically for the time when we will have to put our full weight behind a deal these two eventually do hammer out... Clinton was very close with this tact, he just ran out of time and Yasser made a big mistake thinking he could put pressure on Israel with the Intifada. The Intifada which Yasser didn't start but foolishly thought he could exploit to make Israel come to terms which eventually lead to the entire Israeli political system shifting to the right amazingly making Ariel Sharon a centrist.

[Larry]

Our position should be to tamp down the violence... Improve the lives of the Palestinians so they have something to loose, Try to grow more moderates on both sides and gradually get them back into talks. Finally we prepare ourselves politically for the time when we will have to put our full weight behind a deal these two eventually do hammer out... Clinton was very close with this tact, he just ran out of time and Yasser made a big mistake thinking he could put pressure on Israel with the Intifada.

I have to confess that there are times where I'm creating a "Captain Kirk blows up the computers that are fighting simulated warfare, and both sides decide to sue for peace" scenarios, I find myself speculating on what the effect would be, if the US were to break the Israeli blockade.

Announce that no, we won't allow weapons in. But that blockading fruit, vegetables, spare parts for x-ray machines, and macaroni and cheese is over.

[JMS]

I have to confess that there are times where I'm creating a "Captain Kirk blows up the computers that are fighting simulated warfare, and both sides decide to sue for peace" scenarios, I find myself speculating on what the effect would be, if the US were to break the Israeli blockade.

If the US backed away from Israel she would loose much of her military advantage. within weeks her airforce would be grounded, she wouldn't be able to find munitions. It would be a mess. Also I think it would be a checkered flag to all of her neighbors who seek her harm....

Not that Israel didn't do a pretty good job of protecting themselves prior to 67 when we became their largest weapons suppliers.....

So I would say such a move by us would signal a blood bath... Something that again would not be in our interests as our interests in that regions are and always should be peace and security for all.

Announce that no, we won't allow weapons in. But that blockading fruit, vegetables, spare parts for x-ray machines, and macaroni and cheese is over.

We can't make unilateral demands, that's not our role.. What we can do is twist arms and hold people accountable.

You are correct the blockade has both has practical security properties as well as punitive properties. We should ease the punitive as best we can; as a strategy towards giving both sides security and something too loose.

[China]

For some reason, every time I see this thread title, I hear the first line of the old Kingston Trio song, "They're Rioting in Africa", in my head.

Kingston Trio? You're showing your age.

But then again, since I knew what you were talking about, so am I.

Here you go:

[JMS]

Yeah, if this works out, Egypt might come out of it with a lot of political capital. Possibly holding chips from the US, Israel, and from the Islamic world.

(Which, in turn, might help his own position, too.).

Heck, something GOOD might come out of this.

(And, if Obama is a big enough man to give Egypt the credit, then that might be a really good move in the chess game, too.)

The Egyptian president just used his chips with the west. He basically desolved the democracy and restructured it under his office. He suspended the judicial branch of government and said it could make any rulings against his authority... He proved how valuable and important Egypt was, and then he consolidated his power basically what every guy to ever gain office has done over the last 2000 years. And we are supprised.

[Larry]

The Egyptian president just used his chips with the west. He basically desolved the democracy and restructured it under his office. He suspended the judicial branch of government and said it could make any rulings against his authority... He proved how valuable and important Egypt was, and then he consolidated his power basically what every guy to ever gain office has done over the last 2000 years. And we are supprised.

And his people may overthrow him.

If your point is "political capital can be used for things we don't approve of", than well, duh.

(If your point is "see, these people over there are too savage to be allowed power", then, well, I guess we disagree.)

[JMS]

And his people may overthrow him.

If your point is "political capital can be used for things we don't approve of", than well, duh.

I guess my point was he took all of about 24 hours to cash in his chip. The money we give Egypt still makes us a pretty big player in Egypt. It will be interesting if Obama stands aside for this. We could suspend aid, or suspend targeted aid like military aid; we have options here. Only given the Egyptian President is pretty much showing us that he's a guy we can live with. Sure he ignores us and does his own thing; but even then it seems to work out better for us in the end...

(1) Mohomed Morsi comes to power saying it won't be business as usual and the west has a collective gulp at what that means.. But so far Morsi has been pretty responsible.

(2) Militants attack and murder Egyptian troops; Morsi orders more armored units into the Sinia... We wince, and Israel objects cause it's a violation of the peace agreement. Morsi removes them within hours.

(3) Mohamed Morsi ignores our objections and travels to Iran for a Middle East Summit.. When he get's there he gives a big speach on what ****s the Iranians are for backing Syria against it's own people and the Arab Spring which also brought Morsi to power.

(4) We get upset with Morsi for establising relationship with Hamas the terrorist organization which is our worst nightmare... The political leader of the Moslem brotherhood arms around Hamas... Then he uses this relationship to negotiate a cease fire with Israel something we really wanted.

The next heart stopper which is coming up is the largely dominant Moslem Brotherhood and more radical Islamic parties are crafting a Constitution for Egypt... Given Morsi's recent suspension of the judicial branch of government I think we are thinking the worst.

(If your point is "see, these people over there are too savage to be allowed power", then, well, I guess we disagree.)

Is he going to be a Sadat, a Nasser, or a Mubarik... We just don't know yet. Whatever he is it says more about him than the Egyptian people now that he's potentially suspending Democracy.

[Larry]

Yeah, but so far, looks like he's mostly doing the right thing. (Except by his own people.)

Is that something we can live with?

(I suspect it is. I wish we could make him be OK by his own people, too. but if that's the only knock against him, then I think our reaction is "it sure could have been worse".)

(And the domestic situation might straighten itself out. I read that apparently the new Judiciary is standing up to him. And his own people might, too.)

Maybe it's just my natural optimism, but right now, I think the ME is better off than it was, before Arab Spring. (And if the folks in Syria can get off the can and overthrow their government, they'll get even better.)

[JMS]

Yeah, but so far, looks like he's mostly doing the right thing. (Except by his own people.)

Is that something we can live with?

Well that's a two edged sword too though isn't it. Can anybody entertain the best interest of the Egyptian people is to get into a war with Israel? Israel is about 1000 times more powerful than they were in the early 1970's the last time Egypt went to war with her, and Egypt militarily is a shadow of it's former soviet aligned self. And the contest wasn't very close even then...

No I think Morsi is actually acting in Egypts best interest if he's able to keep the tension between Egypt and Israel contained. I'm really wondering if the US is behind Morsi's declaration. I think many in the US dream of a return to the days of Mubarik. A dependable, predictable strong man, who will accept our money, and in exchange not cause trouble with Israel. It appears so far that's what Morsi is morphing into. An Egyptian leader focusing on Egypts many internal problems, accepting of western aid and debt forgiveness to help him. A strong man who will avoid starting new problems for Egypt, with their next door neighbor. I wonder if this entire move to bypass the courts wasn't pre vetted with the United States cause you know if our aid stopped Egypts misserable economy would crater. Morsi wouldn't risk that.

Coarse the flip side of that is democracies denied tend to come out eventually. The harder you suppress them, potentially the more violent the reaction when they assert themselves. It's rather short sighted to depend on a strong man to secure Israel rather than convince the Egyptian people. Coarse convincing the Egyptian people could be expensive and also is less predictable. Which is why traditionally we are more comfortable dealing with strong men.

Maybe it's just my natural optimism, but right now, I think the ME is better off than it was, before Arab Spring. (And if the folks in Syria can get off the can and overthrow their government, they'll get even better.)

Too early to tell. I think Democracies can be potentially very agressive. It was a democracy which killed Socrates after all. Right now all these new "democracies" are consolidating power. It's the next stage we need to worry about.

[visionary]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-u-s-hold-secret-talks-on-softening-palestinian-authority-s-un-bid.premium-1.480735

Israel, U.S. hold secret talks on softening Palestinian Authority's UN bid

Israel is negotiating with the United States over the wording of the proposal at the UN General Assembly Thursday that would upgrade the Palestinians to observer status.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's representative at the talks, Isaac Molho, left for Washington unannounced on Sunday to meet with senior White House and State Department officials.

In recent weeks Israel has declared that it objects to any wording the Palestinians would bring for a vote at the General Assembly. Israel has refused to negotiate over the proposal's wording and has even asked the United States and EU countries not to enter talks on the matter. Rather, it wants them to put pressure on Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to postpone the bid.

A senior Israeli official noted that in recent days senior U.S. officials told Netanyahu and his advisers that Abbas is determined to complete the UN process and that they see no way to block a vote. The U.S. administration says it will try to soften the wording, in an attempt at damage limitation.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/plo-vote-against-palestine-at-un-will-signal-that-only-armed-struggle-works.premium-1.480495

PLO: Vote against Palestine at UN will signal that only armed struggle works

Four days before the United Nations vote on recognition of Palestine as a non-member state, the Palestine Liberation Organization says it is expecting a "pleasant surprise" in the UN General Assembly in New York. According to PLO sources, representatives of seven more European countries have indicated they will vote to admit Palestine as a non-member state. Five other European countries had already announced they would support the bid and France's foreign minister, Laurent Fabius, has broadly hinted that France will vote in favor.

"Until about two weeks ago we were quaking because only three countries had said they were voting in favor," a PLO official told Haaretz. Sources in the PLO said Britain had given up on its efforts to get the Palestinians to postpone their bid. "The United States, which was busy with the elections, contracted Britain to apply pressure, which failed," the sources said. The PLO said it was also pleased that Germany, though it will probably oppose the motion, at least was not using its power to dissuade other countries from casting a vote in favor.

"Anyone who doesn't vote in favor is a coward or immoral, that was our message," said another member of the Palestinian diplomatic team which in the past two months has been waging what he called "a diplomatic and political street struggle" in European capitals, trying to convince them that a vote for non-member status for Palestine was a vote for a two-state solution within the 1967 borders.