Canyonero! Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 They just couldn't go a month without one. Explosion at Israeli Restaurant Kills 19 Saturday, October 04, 2003 JERUSALEM — A female suicide bomber calmly walked into a popular Israeli restaurant early Saturday and detonated a 22-pound deadly device that killed up to 19 people, three of them said to be children. The early-morning blast rocked the ultra-popular Maxim restaurant off its heels, completely toppling the establishment which sat near Haifa (search)'s beach promenade on the southern edge of the city. Paramedics estimated that at least forty others were injured in the bombing, several of them seriously. Authorities said the bomber walked into the restaurant with the device strapped to his body and, without warning, quickly pulled the plug on it. Initially there were conflicting reports as to whether or not the assailant was also armed, shooting to death a security guard before entering the building. Police said they are still investigating that theory. Hours after the explosion, the militant group Islamic Jihan claimed responsibility for the attack. Not long after, speculation grew that the attack could spark Israel to take action against Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. The Israeli Cabinet threatened on Sept. 11 to "remove" Arafat, implying either expulsion or assassination, and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon suggested action would be taken against the Palestinian leader if there was another major suicide bombing with heavy casualties. The incoming Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia (search), condemned Saturday's bombing as an "ugly attack" and urged all Palestinian groups to stop violence against civilians. The chief Palestinian negotiator, Saeb Erekat, said he appealed to international mediators to ensure that Israel does not retaliate. "We don't want Israel to add fuel to the fire," he said. David Baker, an official in Sharon's office, said the blast shows that "the Palestinian Authority continues to refuse to take even minimal steps against the terrorist infrastructure." A motorist, identified only as Navon, said he was near the scene when he heard the blast. "When I got to the area of the restaurant, we saw smoke all the glass had been blown out," he said. "We went in, about five or six of us, and started to take the wounded out. In truth there was not much to take out. There were not a lot of wounded, just a lot of people strewn on the ground. There was nothing to do, no way to help them." The blast blew out windows, and others were pockmarked by shrapnel. Walls inside were riddled with holes, wires hung down from the ceiling and clusters of pipes were exposed. Chunks were blown off pillars throughout the restaurant. Among the wounded were the general manager, technical manager and coach of the Maccabi Haifa football club, team captain Arik Benado said. Players and staff from the club meet at Maxim every Saturday, and other players had been heading to the restaurant at the time of the blast, he said. Saturday's bombing brought to 103 the number of suicide bombings in the past three years of Israeli-Palestinian fighting. In the past, several bombers were stopped outside restaurants, cafes and shopping malls by security guards, either foiling attacks or limiting the casualties. If it were confirmed the bomber shot the guard before entering the restaurant, it would be a new tactic. Police Commissioner Shlomo Aharonishki said it was not clear whether shots were fired. However, a person dressed in the reflective vest commonly worn by security guard was seen lying face down on Maxim's front steps after the attack. On Friday, Israel imposed a blanket closure on the West Bank and Gaza Strip ahead of Yom Kippur, which begins at sundown Sunday and ends at sundown Monday. Such closures are generally imposed during Jewish holidays because of increased concerns about attacks by Palestinian militants in such periods. It was the first suicide bombing since twin attacks killed 15 people on Sept. 9, near an army base outside Tel Aviv and at a Jerusalem coffee shop. Those attacks prompted the Cabinet's threat against Arafat. Since fighting broke out three years ago, more than 431 Israelis have been killed suicide bombings. Earlier, the violent Hamas group declared that a security barrier Israel is building around the West Bank would not stop suicide bombers from reaching Israeli cities. The militant group also said it would continue to send Palestinians to blow themselves up inside Israel. "This wall will not protect the Zionist entity and will not stop the attacks of resistance and, God willing, the day will come when this wall will collapse as the Berlin wall collapsed," said a statement, signed by Hamas, posted on a pro-Hamas Web site late Friday. Earlier this week, the Israeli Cabinet approved a new phase of the barrier project that will add fences deep inside the West Bank to shield four large Jewish settlements. Palestinians and the United States have opposed the path of the barrier, saying it would pre-empt peace agreements and unilaterally define the border of a Palestinian state. Israeli officials have said wide gaps would be left — for now — between the new fences and the main barrier being built closer to Israel's frontier with the West Bank. Connecting the fences would slice the West Bank in half. About one-fourth of the barrier project has already been built in the northern West Bank. In places, it runs close to Israel; elsewhere it dips farther into the West Bank, isolating several Palestinian villages and cutting some residents off from their land. Israel says the barrier is essential to try to stop Palestinian suicide bombers and other attackers from reaching Israel, where they've killed hundreds during fighting that's lasted three years. In an interview published Saturday in The Washington Post, Secretary of State Colin Powell said Israel's effort to dampen criticism by leaving gaps in the new phase of the fence was not satisfactory. Powell indicated that the route should stick to the "green line," the frontier between Israel and the West Bank before the 1967 Mideast War. "The more you intrude in Palestinian areas and the more it looks like it could be contiguous intrusion around large sections of Palestinian land that would prejudge subsequent negotiations as to what a Palestinian state may look like, that's a problem," Powell said. The Associated Press contributed to this report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 Every time Hamas has a parade, strafe it. Every time a murderer kills civilians(what brave warriors these Muslims are, killing people at restaurants, discotechs, at seder) level a town. Kill Arafat, don't expel him(though they haven't even done that) If the Arabs want the destruction of Israel, at the very least FIGHT! Stop negotiating with the people who are planning your extermination. Instead, annihilate them all because it's you or them. I'd expect no less from the US if large chunks of our population were being taken out by terrorists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SkinsHokie Fan Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. Here is the problem with your arguments. These people, do not, do not DO NOT, represent my religion. The problem is these are a bunch of power hungary psycos that have been able to take advantage of a desperate people and use them to launch attacks. Once again the KKK does not equal Americans or Christianity in any way. If it was the KKK that dropped bombs on Hiroshima maybe people around the world would think that. I am one who believes that if the PLO had actually invested in economic development rather then a killing machiene that Isreali's and Arabs could live side by side quite easily. However they didn't BUT THEY DONT REPRESENT ALL OF ISLAM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 SkinsHF I understand what you are saying--I KNOW that not all Muslims are like this, but unfortunately the percentage that, at minimum, tacitly support or do not verbally condemn these monsters is FAR greater than even the support for the KKK at its height. Besides the KKK was always about the South, not about Christianity, no matter what they said. There's a lesbian Muslim woman in Canada who lives in fear from all the death threats due to a book she wrote that Islam has to turn away from its past and embrace modernity. Salman Rushdie lived in fear for decades because of these threats. I could write whatever I wanted about Christians or Christianity right now and I would not be that fearful for my life. Because Islam as a religion demands a theocratic state, it has been difficult(though not impossible) for them to separate religion from the public sphere. Also, it seems that there exists greater allegiance to Muslims, whether they be monsters from Al Qaeda, than to non-Muslims who are innocent or who dare fight against Muslims. This is wrong and evil. I'm not saying you are the one responsible or that all Muslims are--but there is a great conflict that must be resolved for good in Islam. Embrace a Reformation of sorts, or the world will have to wage war on the many heads of the Hydra. Sudan, Nigeria, Mauritania(Arab Muslims were the first to enslave blacks wholesale and still own them in Mauritania and Sudan,) Philippines, Israel/Palestine, Jammu-Kashmir, Pakistani Christians getting mowed down and oppressed, Hindus killed right in the middle of India, Al Qaeda, Muslim men raping and harrassing French women to the point they have to wear veils to avoid this crime, Jews being beaten and harrassed in France(among other places,) Morocco, Algeria, Chechnya, the brief Dagestan affair. It's a global problem and it involves your co-religionists. I know that's harsh, but just as many Russians spoke out against the Soviet Union, we need Muslims to stand up and be counted LOUDLY in the public sphere. No more hearing from CAIR and AADC who are nothing but terrorist-apologists. No more Muslim academies in the US, where the kids talk about replacing the Constitution with the Koran or sympathize with the Bin Ladens of the world. Basically, clean house and make it as intolerable to even remotely support or rationalize a suicide bomber as it is for a white person to talk about N____. And stop whining about media portrayals or news stories when the facts speak for themselves. Just condemn, don't offer a "but Israel" or "But Kashmir." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Originally posted by GhostofWoodsonReturns Every time a murderer kills civilians(what brave warriors these Muslims are, killing people at restaurants, discotechs, at seder) level a town. Wouldn't that be killing civilians? And is it any more brave to slaughter civilians from bombers (or using surface-to-surface missiles or something else)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Originally posted by Canyonero! They just couldn't go a month without one. Your problem is that youre not educated enough with the dynamics of the region as you think you are. The Israel-Palestenian situation isnt one of religion, but one of politics of geography. It just happens that the two parties here are of different religion. You are assuming that the reason the bombings are going on is because palestenians are predominantly muslim. However, the reason the bombings go on is because there is a dispute over land that both sides claim. ITS NOT ABOUT RELIGION, theyre not bombing because theyre muslims theyre bombing because of their dispute as palestenians. I think you have to react less and think more. Everytime something happens in the middle east that you dont like you cant go around condeming a religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sisko Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Every time Hamas has a parade, strafe it.Every time a murderer kills civilians(what brave warriors these Muslims are, killing people at restaurants, discotechs, at seder) level a town. If you are a Christian, I think I could then logically use your statements as a "Religion of Love" update. Sorry dude, but what you're espousing is terrorism as well. Retaliatory terrorism, but terrorism nonetheless. As for your points regarding Palestine and Kashmir I'll simply ask you what would you have people living under occupation do ? When they live under occupation in a police state with little in the way of human rights what would you have them do ? What would you do, roll over and play dead ? You can say you'd never do this or that, but the fact is when you see your relatives and friends dying the chances are good that you're going to do what you can to retaliate. Does that make your actions right ? In many cases no....certainly not if you target civilians. However, under the circumstances, the hatred (on both sides) is certainly understandable and lends itself to the seemingly endless tit for tat attacks on both sides. You clearly have little or no handle on the situation other than your simplistic take to "Kill a bunch of them so they'll stop". Yeah, that'll work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 The best solution is to expedite the building of the wall. This means Israel will need to wean itself off of its dependence on cheap Palestinian labor. It will also mean Sharon will have to get real and completely withdraw from the Gaza Strip, and actually make some tough decisions about which settlement areas in the West bank are really necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 The best solution is to expedite the building of the wall. Yup, 'cause walls worked really well for Berlin, China, France... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Unfortunately, Palestinians are little more than squatters, with a very thin claim on the land they currently occupy. Jordan would be a much better place for them to blend in. But if you look at a map, there has never been a place called palestine, unless it's on the maps of radicial rag head madrass's that teach there is no Isreal. As someone brought up earlier, if they had invested in themselves and tried to help themselves a little more, they would certainly be better off. Thing is, the current leaders, that are suposedly "elected", don't want the populous in general to be better off, because they stay in power by feeding off the misery of the people. Isreal has tried, and tried and tried, and everytime they pull back they are rewarded with a bombing of civilians. There comes a time when enough is enough. The palestian leaders chose the path they wanted to take. It time they pay the price for their decisions. If that takes out a few extra civilians, well........that's what happens when you have brave muslim fighters that talk a lot of smack and sneak and bomb civilians, then hide behind women and children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Yusuf 1) I'm not a Christian, I'm agnostic 2) It is you who suffer from a simplistic, media-driven image of "cycle of violence" and "hatred." The vast majority of Jewish Israelis have sought peace. Every time they pull back and a cease-fire of some sort is reached, it is Hamas or even Arafat's Fatah wing that kills a bunch of people on a bus. There are rarely even attempts at killing soldiers by the brave Arab warriors. 3) You are limiting your thinking to Israel/'Palestine' but ignored the reality that Hindus are not being killed in Kashmir and India over Israel. Chinese Christians aren't being beheaded, raped and forcibly converted in Indonesia because of a "cycle of violence." People weren't murdered in anti-Christian riots in Nigeria over Israel. 4)and more importantly, as a black man, where is the outcry and sympathy for black SLAVES in Sudan and Mauritania--most often held by Arab MUSLIM owners. Where is the international outcry? If it were Euro-whites doing it, it would be all over, all day every day. The fact is, PC is international now, and rarely is Islam or Muslim countries criticized for their behavior. 5) Even more importantly, can you point me to the worldwide Buddhist jihad that claims dominion over the earth? Taoist jihad? No? I wonder why that might be...could it because, on some level, Muslim killers and slavers ARE following the original dictates and spirit of their religion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 GoWReturns, On your point (2), which administrations saw more violence by Palestinian militants: Rabin/Peres or Netanyahu/Sharon? On your point (3), the FARC isn't kidnapping and executing tourists and Colombians because of Israel; Rwandan Tutsis aren't slaughtering Hutus over Israel; China isn't violently suppressing dissent over Israel; Japan didn't try to conquer the Pacific and cripple the US over Israel; Hitler didn't try to take over the whole world because of Israel. Not sure where Islam factors in here. On your point (5), there are two proselytizing religions that are at the forefront of the world: Christianity and Islam. They are the two most successful religions in the world (no coincidence). Nations with adherents of both faiths have been accused of trying to dominate world politics and make every other culture like them. On your point (4), I agree 100%. The moral relativism shown by the extreme left (and Continental philosophers) absolutely sickens me. It's as if people are thinking, "Well, if a nonwhite person says it, it must be OK." As a nonwhite person like you, I find such thinking contemptible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canyonero! Posted October 8, 2003 Author Share Posted October 8, 2003 Originally posted by Ancalagon the Black On your point (2), which administrations saw more violence by Palestinian militants: Rabin/Peres or Netanyahu/Sharon? Shocker! Another, "Let's put all the blame squarely on the Jew...er I mean Israelis!" comment. Haven't seen enough of them over the past 3 years. On your point (5), there are two proselytizing religions that are at the forefront of the world: Christianity and Islam. They are the two most successful religions in the world (no coincidence). Nations with adherents of both faiths have been accused of trying to dominate world politics and make every other culture like them. Can you define a successful religion for me? I was unaware that having the most followers necessarily equaled success. How about having the most followers that have commited homocide bombings? How about having the most followers that believe certain peoples aren't allowed basic human rights? I know what religion is the most sucessful at those. It's great when someone like GoWR says we should randomly kill Hamas members, someone like AtB pipes up saying that would be wrong because not all Hamas members are terrorists. But when Israel does NOT go off and do things that Hamas et al clearly will, you people never seem to recognize that. In your eyes, Israel and do no good, and any wrongs that Hamas et al do are justified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 There is only one way to complete solve the problem. But no-one is willing to talk about it. An all out war with a clear winner and loser is the only way disputes like this are solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitman56 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 I heard a joke about this situation (not to make light of it, but...) So Sharon and Arafat sit down to negotiate a treaty for the division of land in the region. Sharon says, first I'd like to tell a story. When Moses was leading the Jews through the desert, they stopped just outside the promised land to rest. Moses went to sleep and when he woke up, his sandals were missing. Moses said, "What happened to my sandals?" To which one of the followers replied, "The Palestinians stole them." Arafat says, "Wait a minute there were no Palestinians back then!" Sharon says, "Now we can begin the negotiations." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryman of the North Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 I find it humourous in a sad way that Israel takes so much flack for protecting itself from savages who would attack women and children! Look at the reaction in the US over sept 11 and Israel goes thru that crap every day! Anybody who justifies attacking women and children by parroting the old “it’s the only way for them to fight back against overwhelming odds” argument needs a kick in the junk! Im not saying Israel is always right but lets look at the facts, Fact1- The Arab league has stated on several occasions that there can be no peace until Israel is annilated. Fact 2-Moderate arab leaders such as the former king of Jordan who advocate peace with Israel are assasinated by MUSLIMS. Fact 3 the large majority of terrorism in the world is committed by Radical muslims and before you spout about what a minority they are why don’t regular muslims take a stand against them and denounce their acts rather than apologizing facetiously while offering tacit approval by not condemning them? you hear about average Christians denouncing the radical idiot christaians all the time! I think freedom of religion is a privilege and our fathers grandfathers etc fought and earned that privilege so don’t get all sanctimonious and say that people have a right to worship and their beliefs but if your belief is that only you have the right to worship your god then should you be allowed to push that on other people? As for this being a property issue and not a religion issue My buddy Robbie is Lebanese (he is the one I posted the story about getting stopped at the border even though he is in the canadian army and is a born Canadian) and my buddy Avram is Jewish they speak almost identical languages and have the same bigass nose the same Hairy monkey fingers the same taste in women and sports and enjoy each others company on the football field and off “we all play semipro together: but in Israel or Lebanon they would be enemies because one is Christian and one is a jew despite all the things they have in common! if they both went to the middle east they would be enemies how is that not about religion? I am saddened by the way that we in north America forget how good we have it and im more saddened that the way things are going the normal musim dude or even just somebody who appears arab or jewish or “muslim looking” people are going to be unfairly painted and the saddest part is that it is all because of the actions of the few not the majority but until the majority stand up and say that is NOT how we feel then the average American an Canadian will consider that as tacit approval of the terrorists action Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 On your point (2), which administrations saw more violence by Palestinian militants: Rabin/Peres or Netanyahu/Sharon? Shocker! Another, "Let's put all the blame squarely on the Jew...er I mean Israelis!" comment. Haven't seen enough of them over the past 3 years. Canyonero, I'm certainly not blaming Israel for attacks by militants. Countries have the right to defend themselves. What I'm pointing to is the success in reducing violence that certain administrations have had. GhostofWoodson claimed that every time Israel tries to be peaceful, the Palestinians step up their attacks; however, I think that historically there have been fewer attacks with more dovish administrations in power. Can you define a successful religion for me? I was unaware that having the most followers necessarily equaled success. Sorry, I should have said "successful at having the most followers." My bad. And historically, the things you've said have been as true about Christians as with Muslims. It's great when someone like GoWR says we should randomly kill Hamas members, someone like AtB pipes up saying that would be wrong because not all Hamas members are terrorists. But when Israel does NOT go off and do things that Hamas et al clearly will, you people never seem to recognize that. In your eyes, Israel and do no good, and any wrongs that Hamas et al do are justified. That is utter crap, and totally insulting. If you can find anywhere (anywhere in the WORLD) where I have claimed that Hamas are good guys and Israel is evil, I will pay you a lot of money. It's simply untrue. Hamas is a terrorist organization. We should attack terrorist organizations. That's not hard to understand. We also should not attack innocent civilians (eg, "level a village"). That's also not hard to understand. Please stop setting me up as your straw man with inaccuracies and fabrications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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