Let's discuss the offensive line and free agency

[acuratl1984]

The ONLY possible red flag about Collins is that he was at Jerome Simpson's house the day that package arrived. One has to wonder if maybe he may be involved in drugs.

Shouldn't the Bengal's want him back then?

[Oldskool]

Excuse me!?

They were #1 in sacks given up, averaged nearly 5 yards a pop on the ground, and the massive injuries that hit them are a big reason they fell apart down the stretch. And this with a mediocre QB under center. The Bills have had OL problems, but now they look like the textbook example of how TO build an OL without throwing a bunch of resources at it.

Bell has the potential to be an ELITE tackle in a ZBS, because he's already a great pass protector, and he's a good run blocker in a power scheme, so his gifts will be magnified in the ZBS.

Bell cannot stay healthy. His entire 2011 campaign was highlighted by injuries and a meniscus surgery at the end of this year and a microfracture surgery 2 years ago. Also, his 32 1/2-inch arms don't bode well for zone blocking on the outside (compare that to Trent's 34 1/4-in arm length). No way the Skins should pay him OT money. If anything he could be OG depth but both of our guards are better than this guy.

[Oldskool]

Um, Bengals fans seem to be thrilled the Bengals haven't wanted to touch Collins with a ten foot pole.

One would think that doesn't exactly point to finding a gem of an offensive lineman.

Collins isn't a good fit for their power blocking scheme but their RB's have fared well with him in the lineup..

Anthony Collins - T - Bengals

The Bengals are 7-2 with an average of 110 rushing yards per game in RT Anthony Collins' nine starts over the past two seasons.

Maybe they should stop messing around with Dennis Roland and Andre Smith, and just start Collins. A 25-year-old entering a contract season, Collins played only 281 snaps of offense in 2010. He started seven games the season prior, and according to Pro Football Focus allowed just six QB pressures all year.

Source: bengals.com Mon, May 9, 2011 09:06:00 PM

He's one guy that I think would be ok in a ZBS. His 40 time of 5.54 seconds at the 2008 combine is worrisome.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

Bell cannot stay healthy. His entire 2011 campaign was highlighted by injuries and a meniscus surgery at the end of this year and a microfracture surgery 2 years ago. Also, his 32 1/2-inch arms don't bode well for zone blocking on the outside (compare that to Trent's 34 1/4-in arm length). No way the Skins should pay him OT money. If anything he could be OG depth but both of our guards are better than this guy.

Dude, Bell can play. I don't know what you've been watching, but he is a very good tackle. He is instantly the 2nd or 3rd best OL on the team if he signs imo.

Interesting because Shanny took Trent over Okung's 36 inch arms. Not to mention that guys like Jake Long and Joe Thomas have "short arms". Also, source on 32 1/2? I've seen as high as 33 1/4.

The injury history is an obvious concern. But it's not like he's reinjuring the same areas, and the upside is too great to ignore.

[RemoveSnyder]

concerning Bell:

- There was a very flattering PFF article written prior to this season, citing Bell as a top performer in 2010 at LT. It's the kind of article that can sway opinion of the casual and alter perception, if used as propaganda.

I'm willing to bet that PFF is used more often than not around the web to support or dispute positives or negatives on a lot of players.

Ironically, the year prior, he was considered, by the same folks at PFF, as one of the worst tackles in the game.

And another sidelight to PFF, most recently, for free agency the corner from detroit – Eric Wright who signed with Tampa but was reportedly pursued by the skins as well. He was considered by PFF as one of the worst corners available in FA, however he was one of the first signees. PFF gave him a negative "-20 odd" score/grade - whatever that means in their terminology.

So it just reinforces the idea that PFF has opinion just as much as the next guy. And perhaps it's not reflective entirely of what front offices or coaches think / use for grading, etc.

PFF should be taken with a grain of salt, in all matters – in my opinion.

__

Bell strikes me a very mercurial from game to game.

One thing about JB is that he's ok for about 60 out of 65 plays a game. It's the 5 or so handful in which he is totally outmatched and gives up a drive altering sack / forced fumble that really hurts.

Bell just seems to range wildly from one game to the next. Or one season to the next.

What I saw from the 4 games that Bell has played in this year:

He looked good against NE. He looked not so good against Cincy. Almost polar opposite games. The positives I saw in the NE game, were switched to flaws in the Cincy game.

- A limited power base. He gets pushed back quite a bit. Bull rush sends him on his heels. This is the most pronounced demerit that I can see in his game. He absorbs the contact rather than giving it out.

- I noticed some overextension and lunging in pass-pro, in order to keep the defender from rounding the corner. However, it's not a deficiency, like his power base. He actually can move his feet and has some athletic upside.

To be fair to him, you really don't see him beat around the edge by speed for a sack. A counterpoint though, is that the Bills have a quick release pass game from the Spread they use. The ball is out very quickly, so rush has little time to get to Fitz, in general. Thus nullifying the fact that Bell gives ground.

- Bell did give up a sack against the Bengals. It was a straight power rush, bull rush and Bell just couldn't hold back his man and Fitz was swallowed up.

- He is not as agile or athletic downfield or in "space" in the run game, as what you'd expect after seeing his mirror technique, strangely enough.

J. Brown still offers good athleticism in the run game and Bell doesn't supersede that, IMO.

Nor can he compare to what Trent W. can do (few can). Just my observation. So while his slide and mirror sometimes checks out with athleticism, the downfield blocking seems determined upon his effort or lack thereof.

- Bell doesn't have much push or punch in the run game. He basically shield blocks defenders - uses angles to cut-off pursuit, but won't blow someone up.

Fine for zbs, but I disagree about his "power" blocking aspect of his repertoire, as mentioned earlier in this thread. I didn't see it.

- I've noticed that he has a poor "internal clock." He hits 1st contact and disengages after just a few seconds (3 or so seconds). At times, he wheels around to watch the play, rather than go whistle to whistle.

That's big to me. Not going whistle to whistle is part of who he is as a player. It's a mentality, not a skill level thing.

And that's really the rub for me as to why he seems inconsistent. It seems to boil down to effort.

- A couple of times I saw him chip a defender and go downfield to latch onto someone else, so he has athleticism, no doubt. But that was just the minority report. Mostly he just sort-of gives up on the play after the 1st contact.

*Maybe that was part of his conditioning in the early part of the season.

*Maybe residual issues with certain injuries ...?

- Also there is the shoulder injury. I have no idea how sever it was, he only played 4 games this last year, the first four and has missed all after that. Did he need surgery? Is it recurrent? That has to be figured out.

- A subtle thing too, he would have to transition from the left side to the right side. Maybe that's an easy thing.

I'm certain most people would think it is because of some preconceived stigma that RTs are less talented than LTs. I think that in today's NFL, with guys like Ware, who can rush from either side and often enough over-top the RT or Matthews rushing from over-top the RT, the right tackle need to be just as solid as the LT – in terms of technique and discipline.

So it's all about solid technique and comfort of the player himself. It might be a very minor thing, I'm sure, but nonetheless a transition for Bell, if asked to play RT.

__

just some thoughts of mine.

[SkinsTillIDie]

Excellent post and insight, thank you Monk.

You seem to best highlight why we're talking to Bell at this juncture: he may be a better fit in the zone blocking scheme, while inconsistency and a red flag concerning effort have arrested interest and probably the money offers that he has been seeking.

He does seem to have some similarities with the pre-draft Trent Williams, in terms of athleticism and questionable mental hangups. Shanny also apparently is the type of coach who believes he can get the best out of anyone... Seems like a perfect match

- There was a very flattering PFF article written prior to this season, citing Bell as a top performer in 2010 at LT. It's the kind of article that can sway opinion of the casual and alter perception, if used as propaganda.

I'm willing to bet that PFF is used more often than not around the web to support or dispute positives or negatives on a lot of players.

Ironically, the year prior, he was considered, by the same folks at PFF, as one of the worst tackles in the game.

And another sidelight to PFF, most recently, for free agency the corner from detroit – Eric Wright who signed with Tampa but was reportedly pursued by the skins as well. He was considered by PFF as one of the worst corners available in FA, however he was one of the first signees. PFF gave him a negative "-20 odd" score/grade - whatever that means in their terminology.

So it just reinforces the idea that PFF has opinion just as much as the next guy. And perhaps it's not reflective entirely of what front offices or coaches think / use for grading, etc.

PFF should be taken with a grain of salt, in all matters – in my opinion.

EXACTLY. It's appalling that PFF is now being quoted as a legitimate source of scouting by writers at ESPN. The people at PFF don't even have access to the "ALL-22;" they're merely watching the same TV footage as the rest of us.

Meaning they can't even see every player on every play. They don't know assignments. They can only partially gauge the play of the offensive line, the routes of some receivers, and so forth.

And they are the opinions of very few.

The reliance on PFF (he has a +x number!) is almost as lazy as an argument for/against a player based purely on casual statistics.

Also, Sean Locklear was the highest rated pass protecting tackle in all of the NFL in 2010. According to PFF

[KDawg]

- A subtle thing too, he would have to transition from the left side to the right side. Maybe that's an easy thing.

I'm certain most people would think it is because of some preconceived stigma that RTs are less talented than LTs. I think that in today's NFL, with guys like Ware, who can rush from either side and often enough over-top the RT or Matthews rushing from over-top the RT, the right tackle need to be just as solid as the LT – in terms of technique and discipline.

So it's all about solid technique and comfort of the player himself. It might be a very minor thing, I'm sure, but nonetheless a transition for Bell, if asked to play RT.

.

It's not easy to transition from the right to the left side. It's like using your right and left hand. Perhaps that's not the best analogy, because it's probably a bit easier to switch sides on the line than it is to use your left hand efficiently if you're right handed. But, the comparison is decent. It involves a different body lean, different power/kick step, it's just different. It'll be different in drills and scrimmages, and then even more different in live game action. Perception, peripherals, everything is much less clear when switching sides. Some guys can do it no problem. Some guys have difficulty in transitioning. But it's never an easy task.

[Oldskool]

Dude, Bell can play. I don't know what you've been watching, but he is a very good tackle. He is instantly the 2nd or 3rd best OL on the team if he signs imo.

Interesting because Shanny took Trent over Okung's 36 inch arms. Not to mention that guys like Jake Long and Joe Thomas have "short arms". Also, source on 32 1/2? I've seen as high as 33 1/4.

The injury history is an obvious concern. But it's not like he's reinjuring the same areas, and the upside is too great to ignore.

Trent was taken over Okung due to overall athleticism. Arm length is still a huge part of grading a OT, but in this scheme so is speed and technique. Neither Thomas or Long play in this system, nor do I think they'd thrive in a zone blocking environment.

Bell has potential, I will grant you that. However his injury history almost completely negates it. He's worth signing as a backup at the right price.

[Jumbo]

It will be interesting to see how this thread does today. :cool:

Yesterday, you couldn't keep 237 posts about All Things O-LIne out of the FA thread that should have been posted in this thread instead, and now watch---it will be quiet in here even though the new FA thread shuts down that stuff (which it shouldn't have even needed to do).

I love this place. :pfft:

[Hitman21ST]

Hoping we can get at least something today in regards to the OL, even if it's just depth.

[planter]

Our "budget hogs" are going to do just fine. We've been doing it for two years now and there hasn't really been that much difference.

Only 9 teams gave up more sacks and our running game yards/carry was below average. Except LT all other positions could be upgraded. For the last several years injuries have revealed lack of depth. Dominant NTs and QB Killas are salivating...

[Epochalypse]

Only 9 teams gave up more sacks and our running game yards/carry was below average. Except LT all other positions could be upgraded. For the last several years injuries have revealed lack of depth. Dominant NTs tackles and QB Killas are salivating...

And yet I'm willing to bet our sack numbers improve dramatically with a QB that doesn't crumble if he can't find his checkdown (Beck) or has the speed of three legged yak (Grossman).

Once the passing game improves, our running game should also open up.

[RemoveSnyder]

This one goes out to T. Williams, Hurt, Monty, Chris C. and JB, Kory too.

BELIEVE IN YOURSELF

__

Oh and Donald Stephenson or Jeff Allen, whichever one of you guys that gets drafted.

[Oldskool]

Only 9 teams gave up more sacks and our running game yards/carry was below average. Except LT all other positions could be upgraded. For the last several years injuries have revealed lack of depth. Dominant NTs tackles and QB Killas are salivating...

You are way off so let's just set some logic here..

1st of all, the interior of the Skins OL was decimated with injuries last year.

2nd of all, a good portion of the sacks given up last year were in the Buffalo game were culpability was directly on Beck.

3rd of all, the ZBS does have an inherent weakness when going up against 3-4 defenses (both LeBeau and Phillips versions, for different reasons). This is in great part due to having had smaller centers and guards in the past. That is being changed with the more modern version of the ZBS where interior lineman are now ~300lbs and are not blown away by NT's

4th of all, teams that use the ZBS, such as the Skins, Packers and Texans all practice against a 3-4 defense every day during camp and know their weaknesses.

The problems that the Skins had last year were an issue of personnel due to incompetence (Beck) and injuries to the interior of the OL. It's not a scheme issue but rather an issue of still needing the right players for the scheme.

[planter]

And yet I'm willing to bet our sack numbers improve dramatically with a QB that doesn't crumble if he can't find his checkdown (Beck) or has the speed of three legged yak (Grossman).

Once the passing game improves, our running game should also open up.

Very good point: the RG3 factor! IMO a good draft move.

[RawBBQSauce]

Blake DeChristopher anyone?

http://www.hokiesports.com/football/players/dechristopher_blake.html

I think he has potential to be a great value pick later in the draft and could slide inside to play some Guard for us if he isn't mobile enough to stay in front of guys at the RT spot.

Not to mention I grew up with the guy.

[Est.1974]

It's not easy to transition from the right to the left side.

Aside from the injury, I think Jammal Brown has struggled with the switch across to the right.

Also, I'm not convinced the 'skins will want to overpay now for an OT unless they have totally given up on Brown - Shanahan may well still need time to decide on Brown.

I'd still consider Chester to RT if we could add a G or two via FA or the draft.

[Crazy Levi]

Only 9 teams gave up more sacks and our running game yards/carry was below average. Except LT all other positions could be upgraded. For the last several years injuries have revealed lack of depth. Dominant NTs and QB Killas are salivating...

Yeah, I just can't get on board with the whole "Our O-Line is Just Fine!" program.

Undertalented and lack of depth. We need better, just as we have for about 5 years.

Gotta be the focus of our draft efforts this season and next.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

>implying anyone said the OL was just fine

All anyone's said is that it's not a disaster, and there's real potential for improvement and growth given last year's injuries and the poor play at QB. Should we invest more in it? Yes. But should we be panicking about it? No.

People tend to think that OLs are independent walls that simply stand there and block, but in reality they're just as interdependent as any other position group.

[planter]

You are way off so let's just set some logic here..

1st of all, the interior of the Skins OL was decimated with injuries....

Agree that the Skins O line has been injury plagued for years now.

If Lich and Brown stay healthy the line may be adequate. Only LT Williams has all pro potential.

Generally speaking in football, big and agile (with technique and attitude) is better that smaller and agile (with technique and attitude). But big and agile types are rarer birds and so get drafted higher and paid more.

I have truly come to appreciate Shanny's offensive strategy. It just needs to be tweaked in his new habitat: the NFC East. The land of Ware, Osi, Tuck, Pierre Paul, Babin, Orakpo, etc......

[skinny21]

And yet I'm willing to bet our sack numbers improve dramatically with a QB that doesn't crumble if he can't find his checkdown (Beck) or has the speed of three legged yak (Grossman).

Once the passing game improves, our running game should also open up.

I'm not too sure. I wouldn't be surprised if our sack numbers go up, at least until Griffin is comfortable within the system. Maybe not, but it sure wouldn't surprise me. Of course, with the Buffalo game padding those numbers I wouldn't bet on it. Gotta temper our expectations though, particularly in regards to a rookie QB.

[DogofWar1]

I'm not too sure. I wouldn't be surprised if our sack numbers go up, at least until Griffin is comfortable within the system. Maybe not, but it sure wouldn't surprise me. Of course, with the Buffalo game padding those numbers I wouldn't bet on it. Gotta temper our expectations though, particularly in regards to a rookie QB.

I think the key will be how Shanahan teaches him ball security. Griffin easily has a fast enough release AND a strong enough arm to get the ball out of bounds on short notice. However, if Shanahan realizes that that could be a dangerous thing to ask a rookie to do in his 1st year, he might emphasize tucking and taking the sack in order to not turn the ball over.

I think our sack numbers this year will, if the line is of the same level as last year, remain fairly stagnant, minus about 7 sacks due to the whole Beck-Bills fiasco. I think after this year the number of sacks will go down pretty quickly as we improve the line little by little, but also because Griffin will grow as a QB and develop his game to take less sacks.

[skinny21]

I think the key will be how Shanahan teaches him ball security. Griffin easily has a fast enough release AND a strong enough arm to get the ball out of bounds on short notice. However, if Shanahan realizes that that could be a dangerous thing to ask a rookie to do in his 1st year, he might emphasize tucking and taking the sack in order to not turn the ball over.

I think our sack numbers this year will, if the line is of the same level as last year, remain fairly stagnant, minus about 7 sacks due to the whole Beck-Bills fiasco. I think after this year the number of sacks will go down pretty quickly as we improve the line little by little, but also because Griffin will grow as a QB and develop his game to take less sacks.

Good points, and I agree the numbers are likely to stay fairly consistent this year and then improve as the line gels and Griffin learns the system/pro game.

[pjfootballer]

>implying anyone said the OL was just fine

All anyone's said is that it's not a disaster, and there's real potential for improvement and growth given last year's injuries and the poor play at QB. Should we invest more in it? Yes. But should we be panicking about it? No.

People tend to think that OLs are independent walls that simply stand there and block, but in reality they're just as interdependent as any other position group.

Two areas that everyone seems to be panicking about are the Oline and secondary. It's only March 20th. Get back to me when we're ready to start OTAs and we haven't signed/drafted Oline or secondary.

Too many people are still in Redskins 2000 mode and want us to scoop up any and every guy with a name. I LOVE how the FO is taking their time, weeding out the candidates and holding steady on their offers. That goes along way with changing the culture that Washington is a place to get paid and not a place to come to work. It weeds out the dunderheads.

Take your time Bruce and Mike. Take your time.

[jivelikenice]

Two areas that everyone seems to be panicking about are the Oline and secondary. It's only March 20th. Get back to me when we're ready to start OTAs and we haven't signed/drafted Oline or secondary.

Too many people are still in Redskins 2000 mode and want us to scoop up any and every guy with a name. I LOVE how the FO is taking their time, weeding out the candidates and holding steady on their offers. That goes along way with changing the culture that Washington is a place to get paid and not a place to come to work. It weeds out the dunderheads.

Take your time Bruce and Mike. Take your time.

Sorry but I disagree. We're not in Ph1 of free agency and the big contracts have gone for the most part. This is where you have to secure those solid 2nd and 3rd tier guys that make up the depth of a roster and we haven't done well in this pahse of free agency since Shanahan and Bruce have come along. The proof? The fact that we have started off the past two season relatively well only to drop off dramatically midseason when injuries kick in. The past 3 offseasons, there have been a lot of vets who come in here during this phase of FA for a visit and leave elsewhere for less than enormous contracts.