We May Be Hardwired to Believe in God

[AsburySkinsFan]

I think we're more wired to require an answer, and in the absence of one, will make one up that covers it all.

Not knowing something just kills us.

People also seem to have a difficult time wrapping their heads around what is true oblivion, which is what I believe death is, unless you convinced there's something beyond to save you from it.

We've all experienced this oblivion before,, before we were born. Which is to say of course that we didn't experience anything, because we were not a 'we' yet. The other end is the same thing. We'll just cease to be.

Not "being" is a terrifying prospect, especially in primitive cultures when we knew very little and everything we didnt' understand was a terrifying wonder. Superstition precedes reason when you haven't got a basis for reason like in humanity's childhood.

Gods answer all questions that we can't.

Gods distract us from the fear of oblivion.

~Bang

Geeze as if I weren't depressed enough already, if it's just all oblivion why should I give two farts about any thing or any one? Why the heck would I want to do a darned thing, why not just go out and kill anyone who gets in my way, and why not take everything I can get in this world up until someone bigger stops me? Why not just go about the pursuit of pleasure and use this body up until it goes out with a bang..(no pun intended). If it's all oblivion screw the morals, screw the ethics, screw responsibility, and most assuredly screw anyone who tries to tell me what to do with my few seconds that I have in this life before I'm deleted.

[alexey]

Geeze as if I weren't depressed enough already, if it's just all oblivion why should I give two farts about any thing or any one? Why the heck would I want to do a darned thing, why not just go out and kill anyone who gets in my way, and why not take everything I can get in this world up until someone bigger stops me? Why not just go about the pursuit of pleasure and use this body up until it goes out with a bang..(no pun intended). If it's all oblivion screw the morals, screw the ethics, screw responsibility, and most assuredly screw anyone who tries to tell me what to do with my few seconds that I have in this life before I'm deleted.

Because doing so is not natural for most people.

Humans have evolved to function within a social group. If God is the only reason why you are not doing bad things to other people, then you are probably a psychopath.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Because doing so is not natural for most people.

Humans have evolved to function within a social group. If God is the only reason why you are not doing bad things to other people, then you are probably a psychopath.

We have either evolved to function in a social group or we are afraid of the social group and therefore present the behavior that is acceptable. Why is it that power corrupts? Maybe we are all psychopaths who really don't care about anything other than ourselves and our self preservation and we have found that feigning to care and get along is the best path to preserve self.

[alexey]

We have either evolved to function in a social group or we are afraid of the social group and therefore present the behavior that is acceptable. Why is it that power corrupts? Maybe we are all psychopaths who really don't care about anything other than ourselves and our self preservation and we have found that feigning to care and get along is the best path to preserve self.

Brain imaging studies show that we are hard wired for empathy.

[Jumbo]

Evolutionary terms are completely consistent with theological terms. Though I'll add that there is nothing that is evolutionary beneficial from conscious thought. Sure, the products of conscious thoughts like recognition and reaction or whatever, are evolutionary useful, but we could have derived all those benefits through compulsions. But we are not machines, even if a machine would be much better in evolutionary terms.

Simply, why do we perceive and not merely sense and react?

I can't help but intuit some higher order. I can't reason my way to that conclusion, but I can't reason my way to a lot of conclusions. Why not believe? The hypothesis for belief is at least as solid as the alternative.

You state limitations you are experiencing appropriate only to your level of effort, availability of data, and ability to unpack and expand upon it all at this point (that is in no way any kind of slam; it can fit us all at times). And these limits that are yours of the moment are not the same for a great many other people. One should resist defining any universe other than their own personal one by their limitations and assuming the same limits hold true for others.

All the things you say you struggle with make me think of a great number of sources of information, topical examinations, and logical extrapolations, along with my own personal experiences in doing so and my interactions with others who have done similarly, and are able to have perfectly fine alternative explanations that hold up at least as well under the highest-grade challenges as do any of their countering explanations.

---------- Post added December-23rd-2011 at 01:41 PM ----------

Geeze as if I weren't depressed enough already, if it's just all oblivion why should I give two farts about any thing or any one? Why the heck would I want to do a darned thing, why not just go out and kill anyone who gets in my way, and why not take everything I can get in this world up until someone bigger stops me? Why not just go about the pursuit of pleasure and use this body up until it goes out with a bang..(no pun intended). If it's all oblivion screw the morals, screw the ethics, screw responsibility, and most assuredly screw anyone who tries to tell me what to do with my few seconds that I have in this life before I'm deleted.

I often feel a bit of wonderment and sadness at the certain aspects of the type of personal psychology reflected in such questions (not any kind of insult). But I know it doesn't really reflect a person's character necessarily (as in this case) but more a place where they have stopped short (for any variety of understandable influences) in reasoning through these thoughts to perfectly valid, fairly easily accessible if motivated, and even emotionally satisfying and "life-fulfilling" answers that are available. But it is all a personal journey in my view. And people like ASF or Corcaigh (tho there's the Irish thing) to name two of differing sides on such matters, seem like very good people in my value system (and allowing I only "know" them through their communications here) independent of topical differences of outlooks or choices of positions on various matters.

[Bang]

Geeze as if I weren't depressed enough already, if it's just all oblivion why should I give two farts about any thing or any one? Why the heck would I want to do a darned thing, why not just go out and kill anyone who gets in my way, and why not take everything I can get in this world up until someone bigger stops me? Why not just go about the pursuit of pleasure and use this body up until it goes out with a bang..(no pun intended). If it's all oblivion screw the morals, screw the ethics, screw responsibility, and most assuredly screw anyone who tries to tell me what to do with my few seconds that I have in this life before I'm deleted.

So, without the promise of reward, you can't be conscious and courteous to others? (Rhetorical,I know you can.)

I don't believe in any reward, and the last thing I want to do is just be a dick for the sake of it.

the reward is that as I live my days I am in harmony with those around me.

It feels pretty good, and I don't need a threat or a promise to make me behave in a manner that is decent. Peace is happy. And it's pretty easy to achieve if you just think of others

No matter what faith anyone believes or doesn't believe, the world in general seems to be a pretty depressing place.

But individually people all just want to be happy. And even though our world is constantly on the brink of one crises or another, we manage to live our lives.

A lot of people have faith to cope with how bad it is. I can't help but notice that many of the things that we fight over are matters of faith, so it's all sort of counterproductive if you look ait like that.

But still, life is pretty grand just in it's own right. I don't need to be something more than what I am in some grand scheme, there doesn't have to be some great purpose, and I can accept that i will end... even if i don't much like it.

There doesn't have to be a cookie at the end for it to be worthwhile.

~Bang

[Prosperity]

You state limitations you are experiencing appropriate only to your level of effort, availability of data, and ability to unpack and expand upon it all at this point (that is in no way any kind of slam; it can fit us all at times). And these limits that are yours of the moment are not the same for a great many other people. One should resist defining any universe other than their own personal one by their limitations and assuming the same limits hold true for others.

All the things you say you struggle with make me think of a great number of sources of information, topical examinations, and logical extrapolations, along with my own personal experiences in doing so and my interactions with others who have done similarly, and are able to have perfectly fine alternative explanations that hold up at least as well under the highest-grade challenges as do any of their countering explanations

I don't know what you are talking about, can't say I disagree, I just don't see the connection to what I said, because I never said the alternatives were more or less shaky, and pretty much all my assertions were based on what I can or can't do/think.

[Corcaigh]

It seems that you are making an argument based on personal incredulity. That won't convince many other than yourself.

[Thiebear]

I would think people would stop saying an Atheist should just randomly kill his fellow man.

As Bang has been saying for years, to be a responsible person when there is no reward is the best person.

To give money when there is no identification is the best gift.

To do the right thing because you should is the rigth thing to do.

I fear no burning pit of hell, but i also believe you should treat others as you would want them to treat you. and more.

It saddens me when we ignore the best in people and just label the label

[PokerPacker]

Geeze as if I weren't depressed enough already, if it's just all oblivion why should I give two farts about any thing or any one? Why the heck would I want to do a darned thing, why not just go out and kill anyone who gets in my way, and why not take everything I can get in this world up until someone bigger stops me? Why not just go about the pursuit of pleasure and use this body up until it goes out with a bang..(no pun intended). If it's all oblivion screw the morals, screw the ethics, screw responsibility, and most assuredly screw anyone who tries to tell me what to do with my few seconds that I have in this life before I'm deleted.

Because of another thing hardwired into us... empathy. If religion is the only thing that keeps you from going on a murdering spree, you've got serious issues, and really, you're not a moral person as much as an immoral person who merely does what they believe will net them the most benefit in the end.

[Win4us]

Not to derail the thread but have any of you guys ever seen this show Ancient Aliens? Def filled with some things that make you go hmm moments. Basically theorizing that God is of an alien race.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC4rw1qe-CI

FWIW i'm a big believer in God...but would NEVER get preachy with somebody, or force that belief onto anyone. I see it as a to each his own kinda thang.

[BigRedskinDaddy]

Consider this... if religion in general help people "cope" with things they don't understand, would you consider people that practice religion to be crazy people?

I think religious people need therapy... its sad.

Gee, thanks for that open-minded approach. For the record, we "religious people" don't need therapy because we have Jesus.

Or Buddha.

Or Mohammed.

(personally I believe only one of those names is the real thing, but that's a story for another day..)

Let me also quickly rebut your first point: I cannot of course speak for any other person of faith, but I don't use "religion" to cope with things. I don't use religion at all. It's about developing a personal relationship with my Lord and Savior, and heeding His call, His guidance, and His commands. None of which is very easy. In fact, it's the hardest thing I've ever done. Day in and day out I am being watched by people who may not even know ME but know I'm a Christian. If I react negatively to any situation I find myself in, if I engage in behaviors that I used to in my old life, then instantly I've destroyed my witness for Jesus Christ, at least in their eyes.

It doesn't necessarily stop there though. Let's say one of them goes home and tells his family what he saw from me, one of whom has been seriously thinking about his spirituality. Hearing about a so-called Christian acting the fool, or basically doing what everybody else does, right or wrong, might be enough to put him off making the commitment that I believe will secure he spends eternity in the right place. Not the other one.

You of course don't believe in an afterlife, or God or the Devil, so my reasoning above probably sounds circuitous and illogical. Well, you certainly have the right to believe that. I won't entertain the thought that YOU might need some therapy for ignoring such an obvious truth as a Creator Of Everything. What I will do is pray that the Lord makes Himself real to you in such a way but that you can't help but deal with Him.

He did it for me.

I wasn't worth it then, and I'm not worth it now.

But He did it anyway.

Thanks for your time.

[oisn1]

Evolutionary terms are completely consistent with theological terms. Though I'll add that there is nothing that is evolutionary beneficial from conscious thought. Sure, the products of conscious thoughts like recognition and reaction or whatever, are evolutionary useful, but we could have derived all those benefits through compulsions. But we are not machines, even if a machine would be much better in evolutionary terms.

Simply, why do we perceive and not merely sense and react?

I can't help but intuit some higher order. I can't reason my way to that conclusion, but I can't reason my way to a lot of conclusions. Why not believe? The hypothesis for belief is at least as solid as the alternative.

You bring up a very common misconception about evolution; that it is guided by finding the best outcome. Evolution is, and always be, about random mutations in a population. Don't think about evolution in terms of benefit, but rather as random changes that are adopted by the population because they end up as advantageous. Ignoring intelligent design, we perceive because our ancestors had genetic mutations in our brain that increased our cognitive thinking powers. The lucky ones who had this mutation were smarter and able to reproduce. Essentially, this mutation was passed down over and over again until today. There is no reason for the mutation, only random chance that it happened to us.

I don't mean to sound crass, not being able to reason your way to a conclusion is often the sign of an incomplete/incorrect belief. I believe you don't give yourself enough credit as there are reasons for believing in creationism, though they are quite different than the reason for not believing in it.

[Destino]

Not to derail the thread but have any of you guys ever seen this show Ancient Aliens? Def filled with some things that make you go hmm moments. Basically theorizing that God is of an alien race.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC4rw1qe-CI

FWIW i'm a big believer in God...but would NEVER get preachy with somebody, or force that belief onto anyone. I see it as a to each his own kinda thang.

[visionary]

LOL. Just saw this on youtube:

[Prosperity]

You bring up a very common misconception about evolution; that it is guided by finding the best outcome. Evolution is, and always be, about random mutations in a population. Don't think about evolution in terms of benefit, but rather as random changes that are adopted by the population because they end up as advantageous. Ignoring intelligent design, we perceive because our ancestors had genetic mutations in our brain that increased our cognitive thinking powers. The lucky ones who had this mutation were smarter and able to reproduce. Essentially, this mutation was passed down over and over again until today. There is no reason for the mutation, only random chance that it happened to us.

No, I get that. Mutations that are not favorable don't get selected (and are usually selected against). Perhaps cognition and calculation just happened to be linked? Doesn't matter much to me personally, cause I said, evolution is perfectly consistent with theology. But I suppose it matters to those who think that evolution is not consistent with a particular brand of theology, or maybe all theology. That's all besides the point really.

Also, not really sure why you brought up creationism. Probably something to do with what you believe my views on evolution are. I don't really care all that much for the discussion. There's plenty of evidence to believe that organisms evolve through natural selection, and that organisms came about through abiogenesis, and those two ideas are in no way exclusive of each other. For that reason I don't think evolution has much bearing on theological discussions. At least not for my theology. My earlier musing was more like saying "existentialism does not seem like a favorable trait to me, I wonder why it wasn't selected against. "

I don't mean to sound crass, not being able to reason your way to a conclusion is often the sign of an incomplete/incorrect belief. I believe you don't give yourself enough credit as there are reasons for believing in creationism, though they are quite different than the reason for not believing in it.

No logical system can lead to all true statements because all logical systems are necessarily based on unfounded premises, and you cannot use those premises to justify themselves (because that would be circular). That's an indisputable fact. And it is not because me or anyone in particular lacks the abilities to reach those conclusions logically, it is just impossible. Sure we know that there is a relationship between cause and effect, and that there is no such thing as a contradiction, but we can't prove it. We can't reach those conclusions. But we still believe those conclusions are true through intuition. Is it a sign of a limitation? Of course. But that's just the way of the road. The point is, that logical reasoning isn't all it's cracked up to be. Believers believe in one more unfounded premise than non-believers. It's not as if one group refuses to have faith and only believes that which is founded upon reasoning. It is just that one group just extends that faith a little bit further out. It doesn't seem so ignorant when you put it that way. (of course, it's much different to believe in something unfounded and consistent than something unfounded inconsistent).

I realize my earlier post was not clear, but I generally won't refine my posts until someone engages me.

It seems that you are making an argument based on personal incredulity. That won't convince many other than yourself.

But perhaps it will persuade others to recognize that their arguments are not persuasive to many other than themselves.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Because of another thing hardwired into us... empathy. If religion is the only thing that keeps you from going on a murdering spree, you've got serious issues, and really, you're not a moral person as much as an immoral person who merely does what they believe will net them the most benefit in the end.

My point is, what's the point, if we aren't created to care for one another and the only thing separating us from the dogs is we use a toilet, then why are ethics even important? Why should we even care?

[PokerPacker]

My point is, what's the point, if we aren't created to care for one another and the only thing separating us from the dogs is we use a toilet, then why are ethics even important? Why should we even care?

I understand what your point is. and my point is that it takes a remorseless sociopath to truly believe that the only reason to be good to another human being is the possibility of repercussions in the afterlife.

[Jumbo]

My point is, what's the point, if we aren't created to care for one another and the only thing separating us from the dogs is we use a toilet, then why are ethics even important? Why should we even care?

Are you really saying you're unable to make up some reasonably satisfying answers on your own (rather easily) or that you're too lazy? You ain't dumb, so I have to figure it's about the lazy and a habitual response being so trained and ingrained. But there is, my friend, a kind of apparently deliberate denseness here, as I know you have been exposed many times the quite common "reasons why" given ever since you became interested enough in spirituality to begin seriously exploring it. Countless agnostics/atheists of all stripes and many philosophically-inclined believers have offered such for many centuries.

I'll add that being a believer sure doesn't automatically keep one from committing every kind of transgression as you depict, either, of course.

[Destino]

I understand what your point is. and my point is that it takes a remorseless sociopath to truly believe that the only reason to be good to another human being is the possibility of repercussions in the afterlife.

Ethics and morality are the most important at times when a person is most inclined to ignore them. Like forgiving a person that wronged you tremendously. Saying that we should be good to eschother in general is fine buhosier useful is it in practice without good being defined? We've seen for instance some people argue that not helping the poor is most helpful. Others argue infidelity is no big deal. Etc etc

[PokerPacker]

Ethics and morality are the most important at times when a person is most inclined to ignore them. Like forgiving a person that wronged you tremendously. Saying that we should be good to eschother in general is fine but it's shallow and meaningless in practice without good being defined. We've seen for instance some people argue that not helping the poor is most helpful.

While "good" is a relative term and everybody has their own definition, I think there's enough of a foundation the majority of the aggregate can agree upon. "The Golden Rule" is always a good starting point.

[PokerPacker]

If this is your response then you don't understand what my point is. Try again.

I don't believe I said anything about the hereafter in my posts.

so you're saying if we were not creatures of empathy? In that case you're changing a fundamental quality that makes us human. Empathy is a huge factor that allows us to build societies and live together.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I understand what your point is. and my point is that it takes a remorseless sociopath to truly believe that the only reason to be good to another human being is the possibility of repercussions in the afterlife.

If this is your response then you don't understand what my point is. Try again.

if we aren't created to care for one another

I don't believe I said anything about the hereafter in my posts.

[PokerPacker]

If this is your response then you don't understand what my point is. Try again.

I don't believe I said anything about the hereafter in my posts.

so you're saying if we were not creatures of empathy? In that case you're changing a fundamental quality that makes us human. Empathy is a huge factor that allows us to build societies and live together.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Are you really saying you're unable to make up some reasonably satisfying answers on your own (rather easily) or that you're too lazy? You ain't dumb, so I have to figure it's about the lazy and a habitual response being so trained and ingrained. But there is, my friend, a kind of apparently deliberate denseness here, as I know you have been exposed many times the quite common "reasons why" given ever since you became interested enough in spirituality to begin seriously exploring it. Countless agnostics/atheists of all stripes and many philosophically-inclined believers have offered such for many centuries.

It's called playing the Devil's Advocate, and those countless agnostics/atheists et al are all looking for a reason we care for one another with the exception that we were created to do so. And the fact that they find anything at all is only evidence that they are following the bread crumb trail that leads to the creator.

I'll add that being a believer sure doesn't automatically keep one from committing every kind of transgression as you depict, either, of course.

The fact that you would say this shows that you don't think I'm as smart as you say you do. But that's ok.

---------- Post added December-24th-2011 at 11:31 AM ----------

so you're saying if we were not creatures of empathy? In that case you're changing a fundamental quality that makes us human. Empathy is a huge factor that allows us to build societies and live together.

Human history would beg to differ. I would argue that human corruption is much more easily proved, one has to look for the empathy actually I'll retract that last part...empathy stands out because it is the exception to the rule of human corruption. Skyscrapers are not built because of empathy, Las Vegas doesn't pay the light bill on empathy.