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Football Nation: NFC Top Ten Most Under Rated Players


Destructis

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Game after game London proves that he is one of the best players on the field. People say he sucks at pass coverage, but he seems to always be at the right place at the right time checking the RB and TE. The only reason Fletcher hasn't gotten the props he deserves is because he has played on some bad teams. And unfortunately, the good teams he did play on were known more for their offense. Saying that he is the best ILB in the league isn't that farfetched.

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But let's be honest here. You are not taking London Fletcher over Patrick Willis. No one in their right, un-biased mind would. So let's not make outlandish statements just to prove your point that London Fletcher is under rated... which he is.

I think you are misunderstanding his argument. He's not taking Fletcher in the sense that if you had to take a player, with age-considered which one would you take. Obviously you'd take the guy that's more than a decade younger and playing at a high level.

What he IS saying is that this year he would take Fletcher. Fletcher has outperformed Willis this year and that is a fact. You cannot simply gameplan away from an ILB the same way you can't gameplan away from a QB. No matter which way you run or where you throw your routes, a good ILB will be there. You can double pass-rushers or throw to the opposite side of a corner or safety, but you cannot gameplan for a guy that is in the middle of the defense. You are CRAZY to think Fletcher is not someone opposing teams key on in their gameplan, but you cannot avoid an ILB - he's going to cover both sides of the field on runs depending on where it goes. Quarterbacks aren't going to simply throw away from any LB'er because they usually feel like they have a mismatch.

---------- Post added December-21st-2011 at 12:36 PM ----------

For those mentioning Willis being injured this year - since when has London not played hurt this year? The man had a high ankle sprain earlier this year and despite being in a walking boot throughout the week in practice, as well as sitting out practices frequently in subsequent weeks, his play never fell off. In fact, his first game after the sprain he recorded 20+ tackles. Hamstrings and ankle sprains are entirely different injuries, but given his track record, I'm not sure Fletcher wouldn't be playing through Willis' injury and still performing at a very high level.

SteveMcQueen, about the only thing I have an argument against what you're saying is that you would put Suggs as the Ravens' best defender. I would not necessarily disagree with you on that again going on the basis of THIS year. However, if you are going to so easily degrade Willis to the 4th or 5th best defender on his team behind Rogers, Gholdson and Bowman, it makes the argument tougher. Suggs may be their best defender but playing around Ngata, Lewis and Reed allow him to be that type of player and they open things up for him the same way Willis opens things up for his team. Smith is the best defender on the 49ers this year but Rogers has always been an above average and talented cover corner, he is simply catching the ball this year on the best defense in the league and Gholdson is a ballhawk on a defense where there are many footballs up for grabs.

So, I can agree that Suggs and Smith have been best on their defenses this year, but you cannot so easily push Ngata and Willis down the list on their teams. They are both extremely responsible for how their defenses perform as a whole and cannot always be so easily graded (especially Ngata) on how often they are "in" on a big play. As you stated, Ngata does routinely play inside as a NT and has spent at least an entire season doing it so you cannot really argue him vs. Justin Smith because I don't think they often have the same responsibilities.

That being said, all of these guys are studs and I'd love and be proud to have any of them on my team. They are the epitome of leadership backed up by competence and performance both on and off the field.

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im glad cruz is getting some love.. that dude is dynamic. Romo sits to pee is overrated one day and underrated the next. id love to have him as our qb and hopefully the cowboys continue to flounder away each season of good qb play.

i would love to see a play by play of each LB for the season. no one has enough time for that, so ill go with statistical production.

ive only seen the top LB's a few times this season, but if i could choose one player's production this year at the position, i'm taking fletcher's. he's put pressure on the qb at times, has been great in coverage, is forcing fumbles, has a ton of tackles, is a great leader.. and his defense has improved considerably this year. his numbers are elite in nearly every facet of his play.

and that's the deciding factor. most of candidates are missing something. he has it all, and at a high level. the other two that stick out to me from a statistical standpoint are jackson, followed by willis.

i still think patrick willis is going to get the award though and fletch will get an alternate and wind up there. he's got a bunch of big plays and the only thing he's lacking is a high number of tackles. plus he's playing on a great defense and has name recognition, that will push him over the edge.

im not sure how pro bowl voting works.. is 3-4 ILB the same as 4-3 MLB.. and how many are selected per division?

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The only LB I would put on his level is Willis. Patrick Willis is a freak. Perfect size, the speed of a safety, hits like a mack truck. His only drawback is that he's injured right now. Just out of curiosity, why wouldn't you put Willis up there with him?

He hasn't produced like London has this year. Willis has been somewhat ho hum most of the year and is having a down year compared to where he was at last year and the year before.

Willis is a great player normally. His injury is clearly hampering him, but alas, that doesn't change the fact that London has outperformed him. It's only an explanation for why Willis isn't playing as well as usual.

I wouldn't say Willis has ideal size though, especially not for a 3-4 ILB. He's got average size for the position ~6'1, probably around 240 in mid-season form. That's only about two to three inches taller than London, who is considered very short by LB standards. And London actually outweighs Willis according to their listings.

Brian Urlacher--there's a man with ideal size. He's the mold for the king sized MIKE.

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He hasn't produced like London has this year. Willis has been somewhat ho hum most of the year and is having a down year compared to where he was at last year and the year before.

Willis is a great player normally. His injury is clearly hampering him, but alas, that doesn't change the fact that London has outperformed him. It's only an explanation for why Willis isn't playing as well as usual.

I wouldn't say Willis has ideal size though, especially not for a 3-4 ILB. He's got average size for the position ~6'1, probably around 240 in mid-season form. That's only about two to three inches taller than London, who is considered very short by LB standards. And London actually outweighs Willis according to their listings.

Brian Urlacher--there's a man with ideal size. He's the mold for the king sized MIKE.

Fair enough. Thanks. I've only caught bits and pieces of Willis this year, which was why it was confusing me why you thought that way. Thanks for the clarification.

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Have you watched either of them play this season? London is better than Ray Lewis now. Lewis is clearly in decline and London is playing like a 27 year old.

Yes i have seen BOTH of them play this season.

Yes i agree that London Fletcher is great and is underrated.

Yes i am a Redskins fan

No i am not a homer and

No, i still don't believe London Fletcher is better than Ray Lewis at the moment

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I want to jump in and say that I too believe that London is the best ILB in football THIS SEASON. He has been an absolute monster, and I have never seen a Redskin player have a better season at any position. He is simply everywhere, and there has not been a single quarter (more like a single series) that he hasn't made a play where you said "Damn, Fletcher."

We are watching one of the truly great performances in the history of our beloved franchise. It's a thing of beauty, and I am enjoying every minute of it.

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Ray Lewis is like Jordan and London Fletcher is like Pippen.

Yes, Pippen was great and was overshadowed by Jordan. But let's be real, 5 seconds to go in the game, who would you want taking the last shot? Jordan

So if i need a stop on 4th and 1, i'm picking Lewis over Fletcher.

Those kinds of speculative anecdotal arguments get trotted out a lot in sports debates for some reason even though they're really just a meaningless subjective and rhetorical cap on a debate, not an actual foundation for a good argument.

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When it comes to the HOF, I fear London Fletcher will be the Art Monk of LBs...voters and rival fans will diminish his career by claiming he was little more than a consistent tackle machine but "didn't have any signature plays" or "didn't make enough game-changing plays" or some other twaddle. We'll end up having to put together another video lol...

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Can explain how London Fletcher is a better player right now than Patrick Willis?

What metric are you using to compare them. Have you watched every game Patrick Willis has played in this year like you have with London Fletcher?

I'm starting to feel like Oldfan here, having to repeat myself over and over again. All of my premises are scattered throughout this thread and I'm tired of typing them out. It's a boring discussion as is.

Me: London Fletcher is better than Patrick Willis this year.

Conventional wisdom: No, Patrick Willis is better than Fletcher because of divine ordination.

Let's instead shift the burden of proof to the other position to explain how Willis has been better than London Fletcher this year. That position is by no means self evident, given the simple fact London is having a better season than him by any statistical measure.

EDIT: Just caught the little attempt to invalidate my position on the grounds that I haven't watched both equally. Of course I don't watch Willis as often as I watch Fletcher. For one thing, I have actually followed the 49ers with some loose interest since last season when they drafted Anthony Davis and Mike Iupati and have watched Willis sporadically throughout his career to see the sorts of heights he had climbed before. Your attempt at invalidating my position by demonstrating a sort of viewing bias doesn't really work to support your case that Fletcher is worse than Willis this season unless of course you've seen Willis play every game too.

You know what? when I think about it, your position isn't really a conventional wisdom position given how far ahead of Willis Fletcher is using both conventional and advanced metrics--like I said earlier, the burden of proof is on you to make your claim by using some sort of unconventional analysis.

And I'd be willing to bet I've seen more 49ers games than you have this year because I've seen Willis play and look somewhat pedestrian this season and you apparently haven't. It's not worth going back and downloading the 49ers games and watching them either because the argument isn't close. It wouldn't be informative. London's body of work this season is so obviously better. It'd only be confirming what I'd already learned through watching him and looking at an array of stats.

Make a case for D'Qwell Jackson and I'd consider going back to view just him and might even concede the point. Plus I actually like watching the Browns.

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I'm starting to feel like Oldfan here, having to repeat myself over and over again. All of my premises are scattered throughout this thread and I'm tired of typing them out. It's a boring discussion as is.

Me: London Fletcher is better than Patrick Willis this year.

Conventional wisdom: No, Patrick Willis is better than Fletcher because of divine ordination.

Let's instead shift the burden of proof to the other position to explain how Willis has been better than London Fletcher this year. That position is by no means self evident, given the simple fact London is having a better season than him by any statistical measure.

I think people are differentiating between "being a better player" and "having a better year".

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I think people are differentiating between "being a better player" and "having a better year".

Ah. I see what you mean. For me, the NFL is hard enough to understand and wrap my head around year by year, much less several years by several years. Players peak and valley in their level of play week to week, and even more so year to year.

Is Patrick Willis a better player than London Fletcher? Not this year. Was Willis in years 1-4 of his career? Maybe in year one, yes in years two and three, and arguably in year four.

Will he have a better career than London? Maybe, but he's got a ton of work to do before he even comes close to the level of career achievement London has. One thing is pretty confident, he'll never build an active start streak like London or match the year in year out consistency since his streak is already suffering this year.

Willis could regain his health and form and grow to be the best ILB in the league next year. Or he could continue to be hampered by his injury and never look quite the same again. Who knows? All I know is that today, London is king.

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Willis could regain his health and form and grow to be the best ILB in the league next year. Or he could continue to be hampered by his injury and never look quite the same again. Who knows? All I know is that today, London is king.

For what it's worth, Ray Lewis has appointed Patrick Willis his "successor"

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Those kinds of speculative anecdotal arguments get trotted out a lot in sports debates for some reason even though they're really just a meaningless subjective and rhetorical cap on a debate, not an actual foundation for a good argument.

Again, i'm not saying that London is not a great linebacker and deserves more recognition. I am glad to have him on this team, he is the hardest working and a rock to our defense. But to say that he is better than Ray Lewis is just pure homerism. And I'm not even a Ravens fan.lol

Since you didn't like my illustration, here's some more concrete proof:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSiOS5EiE18

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I'm starting to feel like Oldfan here, having to repeat myself over and over again. All of my premises are scattered throughout this thread and I'm tired of typing them out. It's a boring discussion as is.

Me: London Fletcher is better than Patrick Willis this year.

Conventional wisdom: No, Patrick Willis is better than Fletcher because of divine ordination.

Let's instead shift the burden of proof to the other position to explain how Willis has been better than London Fletcher this year. That position is by no means self evident, given the simple fact London is having a better season than him by any statistical measure.

EDIT: Just caught the little attempt to invalidate my position on the grounds that I haven't watched both equally. Of course I don't watch Willis as often as I watch Fletcher. For one thing, I have actually followed the 49ers with some loose interest since last season when they drafted Anthony Davis and Mike Iupati and have watched Willis sporadically throughout his career to see the sorts of heights he had climbed before. Your attempt at invalidating my position by demonstrating a sort of viewing bias doesn't really work to support your case that Fletcher is worse than Willis this season unless of course you've seen Willis play every game too.

You know what? when I think about it, your position isn't really a conventional wisdom position given how far ahead of Willis Fletcher is using both conventional and advanced metrics--like I said earlier, the burden of proof is on you to make your claim by using some sort of unconventional analysis.

And I'd be willing to bet I've seen more 49ers games than you have this year because I've seen Willis play and look somewhat pedestrian this season and you apparently haven't. It's not worth going back and downloading the 49ers games and watching them either because the argument isn't close. It wouldn't be informative. London's body of work this season is so obviously better. It'd only be confirming what I'd already learned through watching him and looking at an array of stats.

Make a case for D'Qwell Jackson and I'd consider going back to view just him and might even concede the point. Plus I actually like watching the Browns.

You're the one making the statements, I'm just asking what you can present to us that can validate or justify them.

If you're going to make a statement such as the ones you have made, you need to find a way to factually back them.

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Again, i'm not saying that London is not a great linebacker and deserves more recognition. I am glad to have him on this team, he is the hardest working and a rock to our defense. But to say that he is better than Ray Lewis is just pure homerism. And I'm not even a Ravens fan.lol

Since you didn't like my illustration, here's some more concrete proof

You didn't illustrate anything, you stated that you think London isn't as good.

Two clips of big hits translate in to concrete proof that Ray is better?

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see anything but opinion here. I personally think that London is having a better year which is the point of debate.

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Yes, Pippen was great and was overshadowed by Jordan. But let's be real, 5 seconds to go in the game, who would you want taking the last shot? Jordan

So if i need a stop on 4th and 1, i'm picking Lewis over Fletcher.

It aint 4th and 1, but it was Megatron

(I see Hitman already beat me too it)

It might not be clutch, but here's another hit on a "freak"

I have to say one more thing. Has anybody brought up the fact that London hasn't been surrounded by not as much talent that Ray Lewis has. The years when Ray didn't have that talent around him he was slummin. Where as Fletcher has remained consistent and has proven he can be just as elite in the 3-4 as he was in the 3-4. I am not saying Ray Lewis is some trash, I am not dumb, but you can't deny that Fletcher has had a career on the same level as him.

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Fundamentally, I buy the best LB in the league aside from Ray Lewis who will always be in the argument... He, like London, doesn't age. Patrick Willis, Jon Beason, Brian Urlacher are other guys that immediately come to mind when you think ILB. The difference between London and all those guys is he's not quite as flashy. Not quite as heralded. But he's certainly in the discussion.

So, you're saying he (London) is Art Monk? :halo:

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Let's instead shift the burden of proof to the other position to explain how Willis has been better than London Fletcher this year. That position is by no means self evident, given the simple fact London is having a better season than him by any statistical measure.

Willis is a more dynamic player in terms of making plays all over the field. Willis has more defended passes, more forced fumbles, more recovered fumbles, more tackles for a loss, and more sacks despite having played in fewer games.

The end result is that Willis has more positive expected points added per a game.

http://wp.advancednflstats.com/defenderstats.php?pos=LB

Fletcher, of course, has been more durable.

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Ray Lewis is like Jordan and London Fletcher is like Pippen.

Yes, Pippen was great and was overshadowed by Jordan. But let's be real, 5 seconds to go in the game, who would you want taking the last shot? Jordan

So if i need a stop on 4th and 1, i'm picking Lewis over Fletcher.

That's a slightly flawed analogy. Pippen was the sure-thing, lock-down defender so you'd probably want to take his analogue in a 4th and 1 type situation. You'd take Jordan if, say, you needed a pick six or sack fumble to ice the game.

Nah, sounds like you've been listening to Jon Gruden hype Justin Smith up too much.

Justin Smith is great, he should be an all-pro this year, 2nd best 3-4 DE in football right now. Better than Haloti Ngata? No.

Then you go on to mention Terrell Suggs being the best player on the Ravens, completely forgetting to mention that routine double teams and occaisional triple teams on Ngata are the primary reason for T. Sizzle putting up the sack numbers he does.

Haloti Ngata doesnt play NT

Haloti Ngata is a force and is one of the most frightening talents in the league. He is also one of the more overrated players owing to the same kind of Gruden-like announcer hype you've declared as a strike against Justin Smith.

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