The payroll tax expiration fight thread.

[NavyDave]

The house republicans wanting a yearlong extension made sense as it would have eliminated the drama before the election for both sides. But the Senate and the POTUS did not want to do this.

Yeah the cut in the payroll tax also meant a reduction in fundage for Social security but lets get real, the money was going into the General fund not the Social Security trust fund, so is either party serious about addressing social security?.

[ACW]

Screw you tax-raising Repubs.

[Duckus]

You suppose you could provide some more information than that? Maybe a link, or something?

I am watching CSPAN-2.

[Thiebear]

If the house passed the bill on the 13th. 12 month version

and the Senate passed the bill on the 17th 2 month version

and the house sends it to committee (that sounds like the normal process).

shouldn't it be passed once it gets through commitee?

and how did the House get the blame when they did their job but the Senate ONCE AGAIN failed to pass a real budget (since 2009).

Sounds like the Senate did a hit and run?

[GibbsFactor]

There's a vote scheduled later on tonight by the House.

I find it amusing, but I don't think much rhetoric has been thrown around recently about how much Americans hate multiple things being placed onto bills. Why not vote on the payroll tax as a clean bill? I'm really curious if it would pass as a clean bill. I bet it would not. Otherwise, why else are the parties trying to "sweeten" the bill with policy riders that are popular for their partisan rhetoric?

Because that's legislation in today's democracy. It's that simple. You can't have a bill in it that takes care of one thing. That's silly talk. There has to be pork in it. How else can we compromise?

[Larry]

Again, I think the tax cut extension would pass (overwhelmingly) if it's offered by itself. (There's probably a lot of people who would grit their teeth while voting for it. But very few politicians would vote in favor of raising taxes on every working American, right now.)

I think what's going on, why people are attaching things to it, is a mix of

• people who are trying to kill the bill, without actually voting to kill the bill, by attaching a poisonous enough poison pill to it.
  
• And people who want to ram through something that they know won't pass, on it's own, by attaching the thing that they want (but don't have the votes for), to something where it would be political suicide to vote against it.

In short, none of these things they're attaching to the bill, are there to try to make the bill more desirable. It's to make the bill less desirable.

(In my opinion.)

[isle-hawg]

I may be missing something as I see this most recent gridlock in congress as a good thing. I see most talking heads as missing the point as I see it. Continuing to keep tax revenue lower then govt expenditures is not GIVING us a *%^ &^#$ (*@%ing thing!!!!! It is taking out more loans in our name? How the **** are they giving us anything by doing this with INTEREST should they do this?????

[nonniey]

Yeah, let's do all his again in two months.

Things will be so much less political, then.

Who are you and what have you done with Larry? Taking the House Republican side? The Devil must be freezing his but off at this moment.

[ACW]

CNN email:

The House of Representatives completed its business for the day and left for a holiday break, leaving unresolved the fate of a payroll tax cut extension that could mean $1,000 to the average American family when it expires on December 31.

The Republican-controlled House on Tuesday voted to call for the Senate to return from its holiday recess for further talks on the bill it passed with overwhelming bipartisan support on Saturday that would extend the cuts for two months. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid negotiated the bill with Republican Minority Leader Mitch McConnell to allow more time to reach a deal on a longer extension while avoiding a lapse in the cuts.

House Speaker John Boehner had scheduled a direct vote on the Senate plan on Monday but canceled it and called for a resolution stating House Republicans' disagreement with the two-month extension and calling for the Senate to return for a conference committee. Reid has said the Senat e won't return until the House votes on the Senate's plan.

Boehner later went public with a letter to President Barack Obama urging him to order the Senate back to the Capitol for a conference committee. But Obama made an unscheduled appearance at the daily White House news briefing and accused Republicans of trying to "wring concessions from Democrats on issues that have nothing to do with the payroll tax cut."

The payroll tax cuts affect about 160 million Americans. The Senate bill also extended emergency unemployment benefits and delayed scheduled pay cuts to Medicare physicians for two months.

[ACW]

I'm willing to pay more taxes if it will help pay down the debt.

Strange how the whole thing is going down though. The no tax increase folks are holding up a bill that will delay a tax increase.

Hypocrites.

Here's how to pay for it (part of it anyhow):

-Abolish the ONDCP and DEA

-Reduce or eliminate farm subsidies

[Stadium-Armory]

I'm willing to pay more taxes if it will help pay down the debt.

Strange how the whole thing is going down though. The no tax increase folks are holding up a bill that will delay a tax increase.

[Renegade7]

Dude, I know Obama is trying to help us out, but we're way too far in the red to be cutting more taxes right now. Let the payroll and Bush Tax cuts expire. We're way more stable then we were just two years ago, we can't keep letting the double-dip boogey-man prevent us from getting serious about getting in the black again. But that's just my opinion...

[ACW]

I'm willing to pay more taxes if it will help pay down the debt.

Strange how the whole thing is going down though. The no tax increase folks are holding up a bill that will delay a tax increase.

Hypocrites.

Here's how to pay for it (part of it anyhow):

-Abolish the ONDCP and DEA

-Reduce or eliminate farm subsidies

[isle-hawg]

Well, looks like the Tea Party got their way. Taxes raised on 160 million Americans.

Still much less taxes then the bad old days of balanced budgets under Clinton (sarc). MUCH better to keep taxes artificially low and give us all we want in handouts that our children and grandchildren get to pay back with interest..... Or god forbid make some hard choices now......

---------- Post added December-20th-2011 at 08:32 PM ----------

Hypocrites.

-Reduce or eliminate farm subsidies

We already get most of our stuff from the Chinese, please don't have us get our food from them as well!!!! I'm OK with eliminating subsidies for farmers IF we start some tariffs with all the **** we get from China.

[ACW]

No tariffs or subsidies. Many farmers don't need them anyway.

http://newfarm.rodaleinstitute.org/features/0303/newzealand_subsidies.shtml

[RedskinsFan44]

I see this as political jiu jitsu by Obama. He has gotten the Republicans to admit that tax cuts cause red ink, and to argue that they don't necessarily work at stimulating the economy. They also appear to favor the rich over the miiddle clas. As an added bonus a rift is forming between moderate Republican senators and the tea party house members, and Boehner looks like he has lost control. ( I am personally against the tax cut as it starves SS, and that proves the Dems are hypocrites too)

[oisn1]

Dude, I know Obama is trying to help us out, but we're way too far in the red to be cutting more taxes right now. Let the payroll and Bush Tax cuts expire. We're way more stable then we were just two years ago, we can't keep letting the double-dip boogey-man prevent us from getting serious about getting in the black again. But that's just my opinion...

Conceptually, this is the same thing as quantitative easing and the stimulus plan; it softens the blow during the bad time. During a recession, you don't want to just cut spending or raise taxes. More importantly, cutting taxes on the lower classes is doubly effective as it allows them to keep spending and drive our economy. The point being that removing the cut will have negative effects on spending during a time where we can't afford to have spending freezes. In an ideal world, the Bush Tax cuts would be repealed for the higher tax brackets as it wouldn't much effect spending, and then remove the the whole tax cut (and payroll tax cuts) when the economy has stabilized. But obviously, that would both be un-American and class warfare.

[ACW]

I'd prefer not to have my take-home pay decreased by over $1k a year :soapbox:

[RedskinsFan44]

That is the problem with temporary tax cuts. People see their expiration as a tax increase. I think Bush had that one figured out.

[Larry]

Yes, I do think that tax cuts certainly do seem to be viewed as entitlements.

(Although I would credit a decade of political spin for a lot of that, too.)

But regardless of who you blame, it certainly is a fact that people see it that way.

[GibbsFactor]

Yes, I do think that tax cuts certainly do seem to be viewed as entitlements.

(Although I would credit a decade of political spin for a lot of that, too.)

But regardless of who you blame, it certainly is a fact that people see it that way.

It's always been used as an appeasement tool.

Stop appeasing, stop being politicians and lead. Do your job!

[Fergasun]

Let's think about this.

It seems like extending the tax cuts for 2 more months, gets you 10 months away from 12 months.

Throwing a fit and pretending to extend them for 12 months, yet in reality not even extending them for 2 more months gets them extended by 0 months.

It will be interesting to see if the Tea Party members stick to their principles and allow taxes to go up come January rather than compromise. Additionally they are poised to let unemployment extensions fall by the way-side and the "doc fix" won't get fixed as well. For those who don't know, the "doc fix" is used to fix cuts to Medicare that were enacted in 1997 that would help "balance the budget". 11 more days to see how those stones hold up. Could they actually be standing by their "reduce government spending" rhetoric?

This kind of rift between the House and Senate is somewhat shocking. I have a hard time believing the House won't come back and pass the 2 month extension. Right now it's House GOP vs. Democratic President / Democratic Senators / GOP Senators and House Democrats. Although if they are going to throw a fit and put a halt to government spending this is a better way to take a stand than a government shut-down. The fact that Cantor is calling Reid out is not a good sign for the GOP... I don't know if he is egging Reid on but I doubt Reid will reconvene the Senate, and I've seen McCain, Lugar, and 2 other GOP Senators speaking out against the House and talking about political realities. Democrats can point to the "scoreboard" (Senate votes)... House GOP can throw a fit.

To be honest I do prefer the House in these types of rifts though...

[NoVaO]

Dude, I know Obama is trying to help us out, but we're way too far in the red to be cutting more taxes right now. Let the payroll and Bush Tax cuts expire. We're way more stable then we were just two years ago, we can't keep letting the double-dip boogey-man prevent us from getting serious about getting in the black again. But that's just my opinion...

These tax cuts will be paid for, so they don't add to the deficit.

---------- Post added December-21st-2011 at 02:27 AM ----------

I see this as political jiu jitsu by Obama. He has gotten the Republicans to admit that tax cuts cause red ink, and to argue that they don't necessarily work at stimulating the economy. They also appear to favor the rich over the miiddle clas. As an added bonus a rift is forming between moderate Republican senators and the tea party house members, and Boehner looks like he has lost control. ( I am personally against the tax cut as it starves SS, and that proves the Dems are hypocrites too)

I agree with most of what you say except a couple of things. One, Obama believes this tax cut does help the economy. We have numerous independent economists and forecasting companies saying if we don't extend this tax cut, it could shave 1 - 1.5 points off of next year's GDP.

Second, the tax cut is being paid for, and money from the general fund is being used to replace revenue from social security.

---------- Post added December-21st-2011 at 02:35 AM ----------

For anybody confused over what's going on, the reason why Republicans are opposed to this two month extension is because they want to extract more concessions from Democrats. The bill they sent to the Senate was filled with poison pills like drug testing for people on unemployment, and cutting the length of unemployment from 99 weeks to 49 weeks. Democrats aren't going to go along with that.

So the Senate negotiated a deal without those poison pills, but included the Keystone Pipeline provision as a concession for Democrats.

The reason they only extended this thing for 2 months is because they couldn't come to an agreement over how to pay for the rest of the tax cut and they certainly weren't going to come to an agreement by the time this thing expired. So they get an extra 2 months of negotiations.

All the House Republicans want to do is put those poison pills that will not pass the Senate back into the bill. They should of spared themselves the terrible PR they are getting and just agreed to the extension and fight again in 2 months.

Democrats are right not to negotiate with these people until they pass the bipartisan agreement the Senate passed. They've cornered themselves and they are setting themselves up to be blamed for a middle class tax hike or they will have to concede defeat, and put the bill up for an up or down vote to get it passed before the tax cut expires.

[Thiebear]

Worst recession in 100 years and the Senate doesn't want to miss 33more days of Vacation?

They just took off: Not including most weekends.

Aug 8-Sep 5

Sep 26-Sep 30

Oct 10

Oct 24-Oct 28

Nov 11

Nov 22-28

Dec1 - Dec 5

Dec 17 - Jan 23rd 2012?

the Senate returns from their December recess and convenes for their first day of work on Monday, January 23, 2012. After getting a late start in January, the senate will work four straight weeks before recessing for the President's Day state work period scheduled to begin the week of Monday, February 20

And following tradition on budgets and bills: The Senate only released "PART" of next years work schedule. (you can't make this up).

Look at the calandar of days from October 1 - Dec 17th and you will see nobody in attendance and adjourments for caucus meetings 10am - 2pm nobody attended.

So just to sum up this timeline:

The Senate Fails to pass a budget for the year that i thought was mandated by even Congressional law.

Then they reject the House bill on the 14th of December

Then they wait until the 17th to pass a bill that only lasts 2 months and will cost business money to figure this out. (slapped together and passed before the GAO could even score it).

Then they go on a 35day Christmas vacation. ( I'm getting 2 days myself)

Then they reject the normal leadership committee on negotiating the differences in the two bills? (they couldn't trim the vacation to 20 days?)

And were supposed to believe it is anyones fault but the Senates?

you have to be really partisan or not care that they don't care. The Senate has been failing for several years now but there is nobody to police them except us.

[chipwhich]

Second, the tax cut is being paid for, and money from the general fund is being used to replace revenue from social security.

No nothing is "paid" for when your government is running year after year at a deficit and needing to borrow funds to operate.