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NYDN: WikiLeaks doc show how George W. Bush's misguided Iraq War made Iran a bigger threat


JMS

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WikiLeaks doc show how George W. Bush's misguided Iraq War made Iran a bigger threat

Say what you want about WikiLeaks - and I don't much like what it has done - it nevertheless would be useful for its founder, Julian Assange, to follow George W. Bush as he lopes around the country, promoting his new book, "Decision Points." When, for instance, Bush attempts to justify the Iraq war by saying the world is a better place without Saddam Hussein, Assange could reach into his bag of leaked U.S. government cables and cite Saudi King Abdullah's private observation that the war had given Iraq to Iran as a "gift on a golden platter."

Iraq now has a Shiite-dominated government, and many senior officials who are ominously friendly with Iran. It was always American policy to use Saddam's Iraq to counterbalance Iran, since it was really Iran that posed a danger to the region. That danger is now amply documented in the new WikiLeaks documents - including the revelation that North Korea has sold Iran missiles capable of reaching, say, Tel Aviv or, a minute or so later, Cairo.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/wikileaks-doc-show-george-w-bush-misguided-iraq-war-made-iran-a-bigger-threat-article-1.456628#ixzz1fIeHdjs5

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I thought this was well known already? I mean it's a pretty obvious result and if they didn't see it coming when they decided to go into Iraq, I want some of what they're smoking.

+1

I guess actually having someone of importance on the record saying as much is what is newsworthy here, but I think it's common knowledge that eliminating Iraq made Iran stronger.

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My guess is that they did not consider Iran as great a threat as people think. I am not sure what this has to do with NK selling Iran weaponry, which, if true, could have happened anyway. My real question to this assumption is why is Iran threatening everyone if they have an emerging ally in Iraq.

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from the house of Duh. W's policy was better for recruiting more people in the ME to AQ than anything they were doing themselves also.

Eventually people in power need to accept that no matter what we do, that region WILL implode on itself. Imagine what happens if a new energy source is developed? Then all those kingdoms go down, they can't afford to pay terrorists to NOT attack them. Then Westerners leave because there is nothing "worth" buying/taking....and they declare war on each other.

I believe this deep down...it will get worse there before it gets better.

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Depends on if you think Iraq is capable of moderating Iran.(or if the ME is in general)

Reducing it to simply empowering the Shia is rather simplistic as Liberty would say.

The arms, missile and nuke developments were NOT a result of the Iraq war....How did the previous policy of countering Iran with Saddam work out for ya'll? :pfft:

While Iraq certainly did inflame radicals and work to draw recruits to AQ,it also exposed them and their lies.

Wish ya'll would make up your mind if you consider Iran(and it's people) a real threat.

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All right, I'll say it. Call me dubious. Post-Gulf War and really post-Iran/Iraq war Saddam was not really a threat to Iran.

And at least at this point in time, Iraq isn't just being a stooge for Iran.

I'll be the "loss" of an antagonistic Iraq has AT LEAST counter balanced by concerns over the spread of Iraqi "democracy"

MAYBE, this will be true in the future. It depends on what happens in Iraq. If Iraq breaks down into violence, then Iranian leaders might use Iraq as means to mantain and strengthen power (e.g. we don't want was has happened in Iraq to happen here). If Iraq becomes a stooge for Iran (which I actually is unlikely), then that changes things.

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I still have very mixed feelings about the Iraq war.

I do support the effort, but I don't like a lot of the ways that it was done, and I don't think the timing of it was very good.

That said, I'm not one to take a lot of foreign policy advice from King Abdullah

Also if Iran were to attack Cairo or even Tel Aviv it would be a really, really bad idea.

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The overthrow of Hussein's government in Iraq may have strengthened Iran's hold in the region in the short-term, but in the overall big picture in the Middle East you kind of have to pick your poison. Instead of having one terrorist-harboring nation of genocidal freaks we have another.

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Wish ya'll would make up your mind if you consider Iran(and it's people) a real threat.

Oh please, take this garbage somewhere else, everyone knows that Iran is a regional threat and has been for decades, find me one person who said they aren't as much and I'll show you a person who doesn't know what they're talking about. What many of the Left and Middle say is that ANOTHER pre-emptive war this time with Iran is stupid because the threat doesn't warrant such action...if that action is ever warranted. Now, you still haven't yet acknowledged that the change in Iraq has made Iran more of a threat than it has been in the past 30 years and now they have a sympathetic ear with the Iraqi leadership which it didn't have before. The ONLY way to moderate Iran at this point is a full US presence in Iraq until there is regime change in Iran because without that presence the invasion of Iraq has created a vacuum in the Middle East which Iran is filling, a vacuum that wasn't there a decade ago.

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Was there ever only one?

In fact, was there ever anybody in the region who wasn't?

I mean, maybe Egypt helped the folks on Gaza, but nobody else. If that's true, then does that make them the good guy of the region?

(Although my admittedly uninformed gut says that, if you compared the ME countries against each other, then Saddam comes up looking like he was more of a good guy than the average.)

---------- Post added December-1st-2011 at 01:20 PM ----------

Oh please, take this garbage somewhere else

Are you kidding? Do you have any idea how much garbage he has stockpiled, here, just so he'd have it ready and convenient, whenever he feels the urge? :)

The ONLY way to moderate Iran at this point is a full US presence in Iraq until there is regime change in Iran because without that presence the invasion of Iraq has created a vacuum in the Middle East which Iran is filling, a vacuum that wasn't there a decade ago.

Hope you're wrong, since soon there won't be any American presence to counter Iran, either.

---------- Post added December-1st-2011 at 01:24 PM ----------

I still have very mixed feelings about the Iraq war.

I do support the effort, but I don't like a lot of the ways that it was done, and I don't think the timing of it was very good.

I'm mixed, too.

My prediction when we started was that what we'd wind up with was another Shah.

Compared to my expectations, I think we came out better than I expected. (Although observing that lately, we seem to have people on the Right rushing to claim that Obama ruined Bush's war, because we didn't wind up with another Shah.)

I think that the trend we're seeing of ME peoples' demanding more democracy (which I don't think the US can exactly claim all of the credit for, but I think we do deserve a small bit of it) may lead to things being worse, from our perspective, for the next decade or so. But I think that a generation from now, we'll be really glad that they happened.

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everyone knows that Iran is a regional threat and has been for decades, find me one person who said they aren't as much and I'll show you a person who doesn't know what they're talking about. What many of the Left and Middle say is that ANOTHER pre-emptive war this time with Iran is stupid because the threat doesn't warrant such action...if that action is ever warranted.
So they are a "regional threat". Well, they were that 30 years ago. Is there any direct proof that Iran is expanding into the "vacuum" of what you speak. I don't see any. What I do see are Iranian threats, same as 30 years ago, with a technology aspect that falls inline with the times and has zip to do with Iraq.
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My guess is that they did not consider Iran as great a threat as people think. I am not sure what this has to do with NK selling Iran weaponry, which, if true, could have happened anyway. My real question to this assumption is why is Iran threatening everyone if they have an emerging ally in Iraq.

Iran threatens the entire middle east, because :

(1) The ME is overwhelmingly Suni Moslem, and Iran is a fundimentalist Shia Country.

- Shia are traditionally appeals to lower class Moslems, and the ME currently is undergoing massive civil unrest largely built around poor economies.

(2) The ME is also overwhelmingly made up of American Allies, so the emergence of Iran is a direct threat to them.

(3) Iran which has traditionally been a player in ME politics dating all the way back to Cyrus the Great, Alexander the Great, the Tolomies.

(4) Iran like many theocracies has an irrational desire to spread their religion.

(5) Iran has already begun to convert the Suni fundimentalist HAMAS party as she supports their anti Israeli policies with huge amounts of cash and provisions..

(6) Iran has already empowered the Shia fundimentalist Hezbollah party and their anti Israeli policies with huge amounts of cash and provisions.

(7) Iran has exploited hard Syrian times to pull the secular Syrian government into their Orbit and by extention Lebonon.

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JMS, you look like you're more informed on the subject than I am. (Which, admittedly, isn't saying much.)

Do you think we're actually seeing the spread of democracy in the region? Or are we simply seeing the overthrow of one batch of Dictators for another batch?

And, if you agree with me that we are seeing at least an expression of a desire to move in a more democratic direction, then will that function as the Force that balances, and perhaps defeats, Iranian plans?

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Oh please, take this garbage somewhere else, everyone knows that Iran is a regional threat and has been for decades, find me one person who said they aren't as much and I'll show you a person who doesn't know what they're talking about. What many of the Left and Middle say is that ANOTHER pre-emptive war this time with Iran is stupid because the threat doesn't warrant such action...if that action is ever warranted. Now, you still haven't yet acknowledged that the change in Iraq has made Iran more of a threat than it has been in the past 30 years and now they have a sympathetic ear with the Iraqi leadership which it didn't have before. The ONLY way to moderate Iran at this point is a full US presence in Iraq until there is regime change in Iran because without that presence the invasion of Iraq has created a vacuum in the Middle East which Iran is filling, a vacuum that wasn't there a decade ago.

Iran fought a decade long war with Iraq. A war which Ronald Reagan and Bill Casey purposely crafted support to cause stalemate. Now that Iraq is effectively in Iran's orbit, something that Iran could not have accomplished on their own, Iran is set to expand their roll in the ME. We see this today in their active support for Hezbollah in Lebonon who just fought Israel to a standstill in 2006 using Iranian tactics, weapons, and money. We also see this in Hamas who just completed a war with Israel in Gaza a few months ago. Hamas who recieves hundreds of millions in Iranian military and financial aid annually.

Iran as a threat, or counter balance to US hedgomony has never been more powerful against US interests as they are today. Largely due to our own actions in Iraq.

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Iran fought a decade long war with Iraq. A war which Ronald Reagan and Bill Casey purposely crafted support to cause stalemate. Now that Iraq is effectively in Iran's orbit, something that Iran could not have accomplished on their own, Iran is set to expand their roll in the ME. We see this today in their active support for Hezbollah in Lebonon who just fought Israel to a standstill in 2006 using Iranian tactics, weapons, and money. We also see this in Hamas who just completed a war with Israel in Gaza a few months ago. Hamas who recieves hundreds of millions in Iranian military and financial aid annually.

Iran as a threat, or counter balance to US hedgomony has never been more powerful against US interests as they are today. Largely due to our own actions in Iraq.

I think you're agreeing with me right?

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Iran as a threat, or counter balance to US hedgomony has never been more powerful against US interests as they are today. Largely due to our own actions in Iraq.

I keep remembering that one of Tom Clancy's books (back when Tom Clancy wrote books, as opposed to simply renting out his name to put on other people's books), where this book's Grave Threat To The Survival of the World began with the death of Saddam Hussein.

Seems like Clancy was able to predict that Saddam's losing power would be a Bad Thing, for the US and for the ME.

I also remember a press conference with Norm Schwartzkopf, as Desert Storm was winding down. And one comment he made was that the war was pretty much over, except for this one spot he indicated on the map. He explained that the US plan was to attempt to destroy Iraq's armor units, but to leave their infantry as intact as possible. But that here, in this one spot, the armor and infantry were mixed together, so destroying one but not the other was taking a while.

Now, the only reason I can think of for why the US would even have such orders, was because the military's orders were to destroy Iraq's offensive capability, while leaving their defensive capability intact.

Apparently, back then, the US regarded it as important for Iraq to have the ability to defend themselves. An objective that was so important that we were willing to order our military to go out of their way, not to beat up their military too bad.

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Iran threatens the entire middle east, because :

(1) The ME is overwhelmingly Suni Moslem, and Iran is a fundimentalist Shia Country.

- Shia are traditionally appeals to lower class Moslems, and the ME currently is undergoing massive civil unrest largely built around poor economies.

(2) The ME is also overwhelmingly made up of American Allies, so the emergence of Iran is a direct threat to them.

(3) Iran which has traditionally been a player in ME politics dating all the way back to Cyrus the Great, Alexander the Great, the Tolomies.

(4) Iran like many theocracies has an irrational desire to spread their religion.

(5) Iran has already begun to convert the Suni fundimentalist HAMAS party as she supports their anti Israeli policies with huge amounts of cash and provisions..

(6) Iran has already empowered the Shia fundimentalist Hezbollah party and their anti Israeli policies with huge amounts of cash and provisions.

(7) Iran has exploited hard Syrian times to pull the secular Syrian government into their Orbit and by extention Lebonon.

The question is how is Iraq going to aid Iran in all of these quests. Another question is why would anyone on the left be worried about Israel when the left has been trying to throw Israel to the wolves for 30 years.
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The question is how is Iraq going to aid Iran in all of these quests.

By not being able to oppose them the way they've been doing for decades?

Another question is why would anyone on the left be worried about Israel when the left has been trying to throw Israel to the wolves for 30 years.

Another question is why you would ask such a "question", when you obviously intend to just make things up.

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Going in reverse order....first: this.....

Another question is why would anyone on the left be worried about Israel when the left has been trying to throw Israel to the wolves for 30 years.

Is utter bull, the Left is not throwing Israel to the wolves, they are holding Israel to account, and the fact that you can't tell the difference says a LOT.

The question is how is Iraq going to aid Iran in all of these quests.

Now, second and the point which is actually on point, Iraq was always standing in between Iran and what they wanted.

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