Daily Beast: Saudi Arabia's Religious Police Outlaw 'Tempting Eyes'

[Hubbs]

Let's put it this way, if in the early 1900's the horse breeding industry was as strong as the oil industry is today we'd still be riding on horseback.

Let's say for a minute that I totally agree with you. (I don't, but I'll pretend that I do.) Even if you think that it's the product of a highly coordinated cartel of oil companies, the reality is that our economy is currently very dependent on oil, and it's impossible to change that in a rapid fashion. Given that information, shifting our oil purchases toward Canada and away from countries where women are essentially treated like pets is a good idea.

[The Sisko]

This is a non-answer. We're going to be burning fossil fuels for decades to come, even if we invent cold fusion tomorrow (building enough fusion plants to get completely off of fossil fuels would take a very long time). Would you rather buy more of our oil from Canada or remain just as dependent on unstable, autocratic Middle Eastern regimes?

Agreed, well, sorta. It's not a mutually exclusive case. We can get access to more Canadian oil AND our own natural gas AND enact policies that encourage conservation, like increasing the gas tax and subsidizing renewable energy sources, among others. Ultimately the longer we continue to allow our economy to run mostly on oil, the longer we'll continue to be forced to support Luddites like the Saudis.

Speaking of which, I spent a good portion of my early adult life as a Muslim. As with Christianity, Judiasm or other religions, I don't think there's anything inherently bad about Islam per se. The problem arises in the interpretation. IMHO the problem is that many Muslims have become convinced that the only way to roll back what they see as western imperialism is by going back to their glory days under an Islamic empire. The best way to get there they reason, is through ever more conservative Islamic ideology. Ironically the Islamic empires of the past were built largely on pluralism. Sadly, like the far right nut jobs in this country, facts don't matter to them.

[zCommander]

One thing you have to understand about Islam is that a lot of things in Islam are for a very good reason. Now here in the US and other countries it might seem like too old fashioned but there is a reason to hide the body of a female. It is not about disrespect but respect instead and to control the hormones of MEN. Example: You see a woman walking down the street how many of you guys have said WOW look at that ASS or look at that RACK... Woman in Islam are not suppose to be treated like an object even though non-Muslims feel this way. MAN has and always will have these hormones and issues. Not saying this applies to every man but action of a few makes necessary to make laws that might offend the ones who are not like that. This is why the religion won't change if the MAN has not changed. Not sure if any studies have been done to show if sexual crimes against woman is less if they wear veal or not but I assume so since you don't know what is under that burka.

[Enter Apotheosis]

Not sure if any studies have been done to show if sexual crimes against woman is less if they wear veal or not but I assume so since you don't know what is under that burka.

I'm not sure that you could possibly find a way to isolate attire as a variable given the radical social differences that tend to accompany any comparison between western dress protocol and middle eastern dress protocol. That said, you are dramatically underestimating the ability of men to adapt their libido to circumstance. If you're used to seeing nothing but burka then a good glimpse of calf is going to be a rare and welcome treat. Your average American male doesn't give a damn about a glimpse of calf, it doesn't even come close to registering because it's something we see often. It would take shorter, tighter-fitting clothing to really draw a similar amount of attention. To take it to an opposite extreme, if you lived in a nudist colony for any appreciable amount of time not even bare breasts or bottoms would tend to register a significant reaction in most instances.

There's absolutely no logic to what they are attempting to do with such harsh restrictions, especially if their intentions/justifications are what you have asserted.

[zCommander]

I'm not sure that you could possibly find a way to isolate attire as a variable given the radical social differences that tend to accompany any comparison between western dress protocol and middle eastern dress protocol. That said, you are dramatically underestimating the ability of men to adapt their libido to circumstance. If you're used to seeing nothing but burka then a good glimpse of calf is going to be a rare and welcome treat. Your average American male doesn't give a damn about a glimpse of calf, it doesn't even come close to registering because it's something we see often. It would take shorter, tighter-fitting clothing to really draw a similar amount of attention. To take it to an opposite extreme, if you lived in a nudist colony for any appreciable amount of time not even bare breasts or bottoms would tend to register a significant reaction in most instances.

There's absolutely no logic to what they are attempting to do with such harsh restrictions, especially if their intentions/justifications are what you have asserted.

I am not underestimating the ability of a man but it is actually the opposite. The idea is instead of thinking about or "windows shopping" what you can and can't do to a woman after you see her "naked" you should be really be keeping your mind clean of bad thoughts and should think about your religion and God. When a woman in Islam is covered correctly she is covered from head to toe so no man is going to see calves either.

Like I said, there is logic it is just that it is not logic for people from other societies and other religions can bring themselves to accept it is normal but for the Wahhabi (following guidelines of the Quran and the Prophet) Muslims it is just another day of normal life.

[twa]

If your eye offends you pluck it out

don't require another to hide theirs.

Jumbo I think you overlook the effect of the Wahabi & co

[stevenaa]

I am not underestimating the ability of a man but it is actually the opposite. The idea is instead of thinking about or "windows shopping" what you can and can't do to a woman after you see her "naked" you should be really be keeping your mind clean of bad thoughts and should think about your religion and God. When a woman in Islam is covered correctly she is covered from head to toe so no man is going to see calves either.

Like I said, there is logic it is just that it is not logic for people from other societies and other religions can bring themselves to accept it is normal but for the Wahhabi (following guidelines of the Quran and the Prophet) Muslims it is just another day of normal life.

Then instead of oppressing woman, they should have a moral police organization made up of women only who monitor men for being unable to control themselves. Those caught ogling woman should be forced to where blinders so they can no longer see women.

Sorry, but there is no rational justification for how they treat women. We have our own history of repressing women, but the treatment you defend is a whole 'nother level. It's nothing more than blaming the victim for the crime.

"You see a woman walking down the street how many of you guys have said WOW look at that ASS or look at that RACK..." Never. And I'd say the greater majority of men haven't done this.

[zCommander]

Then instead of oppressing woman, they should have a moral police organization made up of women only who monitor men for being unable to control themselves. Those caught ogling woman should be forced to where blinders so they can no longer see women.

This is where you are wrong. You think they are oppressing the woman it is actually not. They are preventing other men to look at someone's else woman or daughter with "bad intentions". Unless you live in that religion you won't understand.

Sorry, but there is no rational justification for how they treat women. We have our own history of repressing women, but the treatment you defend is a whole 'nother level. It's nothing more than blaming the victim for the crime.

They treat their woman really good and it is not repressing at all. What you see all the bad stuff in the news. You don't see how the normal men treat their ladies inside the 4 walls of their house or family.

Men are not even allowed to wear gold in Islam but they can cover their woman head to toe with gold. Let me know if Islam still oppresses their woman or not. Maybe they want them covered in burka so another man doesn't steal all the gold their wearing too.

"You see a woman walking down the street how many of you guys have said WOW look at that ASS or look at that RACK..." Never. And I'd say the greater majority of men haven't done this.

Not sure where you live but just saw and heard this last week and a co-worker was even talking about the ass on that chick. :doh:

[chipwhich]

This is where you are wrong. You think they are oppressing the woman it is actually not. They are preventing other men to look at someone's else woman or daughter with "bad intentions". Unless you live in that religion you won't understand.

When religion dictates women's rights pertaining to dress, employment, marital rights, and civil rights, yes this is oppression.

If you think that is ok treatment for your daughter, than you couldn't convince you otherwise.

[visionary]

This is where you are wrong. You think they are oppressing the woman it is actually not. They are preventing other men to look at someone's else woman or daughter with "bad intentions". Unless you live in that religion you won't understand.

They treat their woman really good and it is not repressing at all. What you see all the bad stuff in the news. You don't see how the normal men treat their ladies inside the 4 walls of their house or family.

Men are not even allowed to wear gold in Islam but they can cover their woman head to toe with gold. Let me know if Islam still oppresses their woman or not. Maybe they want them covered in burka so another man doesn't steal all the gold their wearing too.

I understand that a lot of women accept this and are happy with it.

To me though, this makes it sound like the women are property.

By the way, what about the guys running around half naked?

[AsburySkinsFan]

One thing you have to understand about Islam is that a lot of things in Islam are for a very good reason. Now here in the US and other countries it might seem like too old fashioned but there is a reason to hide the body of a female. It is not about disrespect but respect instead and to control the hormones of MEN. Example: You see a woman walking down the street how many of you guys have said WOW look at that ASS or look at that RACK... Woman in Islam are not suppose to be treated like an object even though non-Muslims feel this way. MAN has and always will have these hormones and issues. Not saying this applies to every man but action of a few makes necessary to make laws that might offend the ones who are not like that. This is why the religion won't change if the MAN has not changed. Not sure if any studies have been done to show if sexual crimes against woman is less if they wear veal or not but I assume so since you don't know what is under that burka.

I might....MIGHT be tempted to agree with you that the women there are respected and protected if...IF they weren't killed when they are raped by no fault of their own...and don't try to explain it away by saying that it is the exception rather than the rule because it is all too often an occurrence that the woman is punished for the sins of the man.

All you've done is shown that Islam is incapable to building righteousness in the hearts of the men of Islam. If a man lusts after a woman it is the fault of the MAN and he should pluck his eyes out lest HE sin, but no, they oppress the women because the MEN are weak and immoral.

[LadySkinsFan]

Keeping women covered up and off limits has nothing to do with oil. Specifically, the Abrahamic religions of Christianity, Islam, and Judism have extreme fundamentalist schisms and they all have in common the separation of women from society to keep them under control. The more radical of these strains keep women apart from men during their religious worship, keep them covered up, and keep them uneducated. It's all about control.

[stevenaa]

This is where you are wrong. You think they are oppressing the woman it is actually not. They are preventing other men to look at someone's else woman or daughter with "bad intentions". Unless you live in that religion you won't understand. :

What you seem to imply is that woman in that region are not safe if they are not covered head to toe. "bad intentions" ??? Really???? I could care less what someone looking at my wife or daughter thinks. I'm not going to truss my girls up to "protect" them from bad thoughts in some random mand head. My wifes a looker and get's attention. So what. It's silliness and is nothing but weakness in the men who support this oppression.

[zCommander]

When religion dictates women's rights pertaining to dress, employment, marital rights, and civil rights, yes this is oppression.

If you think that is ok treatment for your daughter, than you couldn't convince you otherwise.

Then why even have religion and it's belief if all it does is dictates what a man or woman should be allowed to do or not to do? Oh wait that is exactly why there is religion - to control the average man.

[Destino]

They are preventing other men to look at someone's else woman or daughter with "bad intentions". Unless you live in that religion you won't understand.

I find it telling that you wrote "someone else woman or daughter" instead of just woman. What if she wants to be looked at with bad intentions or if she wants to look a certain way and doesn't care what some idiot on the street thinks about it?

Would you feel special if your wife ordered you to wear ugly clothes so that other women didn't look at you as handsome?

They treat their woman really good and it is not repressing at all. What you see all the bad stuff in the news. You don't see how the normal men treat their ladies inside the 4 walls of their house or family.

Is that true of women that don't obey they men in their families or just the good little women that accept their secondary role?

[chipwhich]

Then why even have religion and it's belief if all it does is dictates what a man or woman should be allowed to do or not to do? Oh wait that is exactly why there is religion - to control the average man.

That's what drove me away from religion, being the father of two daughters.

In America, most organized religions wont allow women to be priests/pastors.

Yet in the catholic church, a women can't be a priest, but a gay male who molests children can, and when caught, gets moved to another church.

Somehow, I can't see a righteous god putting women on a lower pedestal than man. As a matter of fact I would be sure of it. But men allow that to happen throughout religious history. Fortunately western civilization is a "little" smarter than the rest.

[zCommander]

I understand that a lot of women accept this and are happy with it.

To me though, this makes it sound like the women are property.

By the way, what about the guys running around half naked?

Trust me when I say this the man is the property and even in Islam. All the woman try to control their partners.

A woman has more self control than a man.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Then why even have religion and it's belief if all it does is dictates what a man or woman should be allowed to do or not to do? Oh wait that is exactly why there is religion - to control the average man.

God did not gift His highest creation with the gift of faith in order that we might be controlled. Man how sorry an understanding is that?!

[zCommander]

What you seem to imply is that woman in that region are not safe if they are not covered head to toe. "bad intentions" ??? Really???? I could care less what someone looking at my wife or daughter thinks. I'm not going to truss my girls up to "protect" them from bad thoughts in some random mand head. My wifes a looker and get's attention. So what. It's silliness and is nothing but weakness in the men who support this oppression.

Bad thoughts leads to bad actions... sex before marriage which is not allowed and is a sin. Everything in Islam is about protecting one's value and status and dignity in society.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Bad thoughts leads to bad actions... sex before marriage which is not allowed and is a sin. Everything in Islam is about protecting one's value and status and dignity in society.

So is that why the women are forced to walk behind the men? So they'll be "protected"? Or is it so that the man's status as the highest in the society will be protected? BTW, we already know which. What's more is that any society that forces the women to cover and not the men is one that is ignorant of the fact that women can lust after men the same way a man can lust after a woman...but oddly I have yet to see a single male burkah.

[zCommander]

I find it telling that you wrote "someone else woman or daughter" instead of just woman. What if she wants to be looked at with bad intentions or if she wants to look a certain way and doesn't care what some idiot on the street thinks about it?

A man who might be married with his own daughter still can go "window shopping".

I am not saying she doesn't want it but that is not what we are talking about here.

Would you feel special if your wife ordered you to wear ugly clothes so that other women didn't look at you as handsome?

Man's world, unfortunately.

Is that true of women that don't obey they men in their families or just the good little women that accept their secondary role?

The relationship between a man and a woman in Islam is actually suppose to be equal. Regardless of what you have heard or seen the woman still wears the pants in the family. The status of woman is so high in Islam that in the Quran it says the door to heaven lies in the feet of a woman. She is the one who bears the child for a man.

[AsburySkinsFan]

The relationship between a man and a woman in Islam is actually suppose to be equal.

Remind me again, how many steps behind must the woman....who apparently wears the pants....has to walk behind her husband? Remind me again, why these treasured women are killed because a man rapes them while he gets a slap on the wrist. Sorry man you're convincing no one.

And then...after arguing that these women are being protected you go and toss off a dismissal line like this...

Man's world, unfortunately.

As if because the men in that part of the world care nothing for the women in their society and oppress them as property you blow it off because "it's a man's world"?! Good grief.

[twa]

Bad thoughts leads to bad actions... sex before marriage which is not allowed and is a sin. Everything in Islam is about protecting one's value and status and dignity in society.

Which is fine until religion becomes the law

Is Islam unwilling to to await submission?....sure seems they wish to impose it by force in many places.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Which is fine until religion becomes the law

Is Islam unwilling to to await submission?....sure seems they wish to impose it by force in many places.

The answer is no, they don't care, the only thing that is important is submission to God that's what Islam means, but it was supposed to be voluntary. But for too many of the oppressors if someone submits under threat of death then that is voluntary. It's absurd.

[zCommander]

Which is fine until religion becomes the law

Is Islam unwilling to to await submission?....sure seems they wish to impose it by force in many places.

Which came first? Religion law or way of life or the common law? Either way they are both there to control people in submission of some sort.