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How NOT To Draft; Vinny's Failures Set Us Up To Fail For Years to Come


KCClybun

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I'm not one to dwell in the past. I feel like the best way for the Redskins to move forward as a franchise is for everyone to put what happened in the past far, far behind them and rebuild from there. That's from an organizational standpoint and a fanbase standpoint. I'm the first guy to go "Riley Freeman" on someone and ask "Why you bring up old stuff"?

...That said, as we continue this injury ravaged season with the Redskins, I am truly wowed and amazed by the level at which Vinny Cerrato and the Redskins front office completely and utterly boned us in the event of this happening. I mean...I'm not blaming Vinny for our record. I'm not blaming him for most of the bad things that have happened since he left and Bruce Allen and Mike Shanahan took over.

But one thing I will partially blame him for, is the complete and utter lack of depth on this football team. We blame Mike for it, because he's the head coach now, but holy crap, did Vinny set us up for failure in his last years here.

One stat I found out when I was doing research for another thread, that was added to with the release of Kareem Moore, is that over the course of three seasons and three drafts (2007-2009), Vinny Cerrato drafted 21 players. Which seems all well and actually good, until you realize that 14 out of the 21 players he's drafted are out of the league.

Dallas Sartz, H.B Blades, Jordan Palmer, Tyler Ecker, Malcolm Kelly, Durant Brooks, Kareem Moore, Chris Horton, Colt Brennan, Cody Gleen, Robert Henson, Eddie Wilson, Marko Mitchell, and Jeremy Jarmon.

Four players that we drafted are currently still on the team; LaRon Landry, Brian Orakpo, Rob Jackson and Kevin Barnes.

Three players we drafted in that time period are currently on NFL rosters; Devin Thomas, Justin Tryon and Chad Rinehart. Out of those three guys, only one has started a game this season, and that was only due to injury; Chad Rinehart started the season second on the depth chart.

But it gets even worse than that. If you count Stephen Heyer, the Redskins added five offensive linemen in the course of five years; Heyer (UFA), Mark Wilson (5), Jim Molinaro (6), Kili Lefotu (7), and Chad Rinehart (3). In the 2005 draft, we drafted no linemen, but drafted TWO FULLBACKS. (But hey, Nehemiah Broughton is still playing the league, so...there's that). This is with Mike Sellers already on the roster, by the way.

Of the five linemen we drafted or added straight out of college, only Heyer and Rinehart are in the league or starting. Both of them are only starting due to injuries on the offensive line.

But wait folks...it gets better.

In the same time span where we only drafted or added five offensive linemen out of college, we drafted EIGHT linebackers. Robert McCune, Jared Newberry, Kevin Simon, Rocky McIntosh, Dallas Sartz, H.B Blades, Cody Glenn, Robert Henson. Once again, only one of those guys is in the league (Rocky), and Rocky just got benched for Perry Riley, a Mike Shanahan draft pick.

But wait...IT GETS BETTER!

In the same span, we drafted SEVEN defensive backs. Well, at least we had a better success rate with those; Reed Doughty, Kevin Barnes and LaRon Landry are all still with us. Carlos Rogers and Justin Tryon are still playing. Everyone else; out of the league.

In five years, we drafted three quarterbacks. Jason Campbell opened the season in Oakland, but with the Carson Palmer trade, will probably be relegated to back-up status for the rest of his career. Jordan Palmer and Colt Brennan? Both out of the league.

In 5 years, we drafted THREE; count em, THREE wide receivers. From 2002 (start of Vinny's second stint) to 2009, we drafted a granted total of 5 receivers. There is a THREE YEAR GAP between when we drafted Taylor Jacobs and drafted Devin Thomas. Only Devin Thomas is in the league, and he just lost his job as kick returner.

Between 2002 and 2009, we drafted two running backs, LaDell Betts and Rock Cartwright, in the same draft. They stayed here until the bitter frakking end.

Over an 8 year period, the Redskins averaged 6 picks a draft.

Many of these players first and last stop was with the Redskins. Most of them never started or had an impact. The only ones who have are the guys we've kept, mostly.

If ever there was example of how important the draft is, and how important is to have a competent front office that knows what the **** it's doing, THIS IS IT.

There are 10 Vinny Cerrato picks on our roster, if you count Byron Westbrook. 3 of them are currently starters.

Part of it is just what happens when you overhaul a roster, but the fact that practically NONE of these guys have a job in the league is extremely telling. And the effed up part is that we had, upwards of 20 "Vinny guys" on the roster by time we finally pulled the plug in 2009. And most of those guys are completely out of the league now.

And for further hilarity, when he actually managed to back into solid players through free agency (like Ryan Clark), he lets them go for even worse talent like Adam Archuleta.

I don't think words can properly explain how effed this roster was when Mike came. A lot of the "premium talent" that got cut when he got here that people complained about cutting are sitting on their butts at home. We always said "If we cut so and so they'll get snapped up right away!". Welp...they didn't get snapped up right away. A lot of these dudes straight up busted out of the league. Some of the more lucky ones wound up with jobs elsewhere, but have never made the big impact that we thought there is.

So when you look at our team and how utterly crippled it is right now, remind yourself how many guys Vinny drafted that he completely whiffed on. Think about how he loaded up at positions that he didn't need depth at and completely friggin' ignored the ones we desperately needed.

This isn't an "excuse Mike from everything" thread...but holy friggin' crap this is one hell of a mountain to climb.

You conviniently left out the fact that our drafts were notorious for a lack of 2nd and 3rd round picks, and even a 1st rounder in one instance. Most of our drafts were in the late rounds, in which you can take a player at ANY position and get nothing out of it. That matter is not necessarily about being bad at the picks we had, but rather WE DID NOT HAVE A CHANCE TO PICK AT ALL in the higher rounds.
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You conviniently left out the fact that our drafts were notorious for a lack of 2nd and 3rd round picks, and even a 1st rounder in one instance. Most of our draft picks were in the late rounds, rounds in which you usually can take a player at ANY position and still get nothing out of it. That matter is not necessarily about being bad at the picks we had, but rather WE DID NOT HAVE A CHANCE TO PICK AT ALL in the higher rounds.

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You conviniently left out the fact that our drafts were notorious for a lack of 2nd and 3rd round picks, and even a 1st rounder in one instance. Most of our drafts were in the late rounds, in which you can take a player at ANY position and get nothing out of it. That matter is not necessarily about being bad at the picks we had, but rather WE DID NOT HAVE A CHANCE TO PICK AT ALL in the higher rounds.

I didn't leave it out. In fact that's such a big part of the problem that deserves to go into the post. (Something I noticed, but just didn't think to put in the post.)

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I blame Gibbs for the poor choices and short sighted moves between 2004 and 2007. I also blame him for Vinny being around at all to take over things in 2008. Gibbs had complete control to build this front office as he saw fit and Danny would have said nothing. Gibbs decided to keep Vinny and gave him a voice.

Vinny is a stooge and deservedly is out of the NFL. But you can not blame Vinny without first blaming Gibbs.

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I blame Gibbs for the poor choices and short sighted moves between 2004 and 2007. I also blame him for Vinny being around at all to take over things in 2008. Gibbs had complete control to build this front office as he saw fit and Danny would have said nothing. Gibbs decided to keep Vinny and gave him a voice.

Vinny is a stooge and deservedly is out of the NFL. But you can not blame Vinny without first blaming Gibbs.

I think you overestimate Gibbs' power. What happened after he left? He wanted Gregg Williams to take over. He wanted Al Saunders to stick around. Instead, Vinny fires everybody and hires a QB coach as his puppet. Gibbs had success IN SPITE OF Vinny. How could he fire Ceratto? Snyder was in charge, and he wouldn't have let that happen. In fact, I read somewhere that Gibbs wanted to fire Ceratto several times.
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How much blame does Gibbs get?

Gibbs remit, at his stage of life, wasn't to build for the future. Gibbs remit was to turn it around quickly and win now; hence all the vet. moves and trading away of picks. He was here for the short term, not the long haul.

And even within that, he still picked 3 major players in Cooley, Landry and Taylor (God rest); along with 3 who've lasted the duration in Doughty, Golston and McIntosh. (Albeit they now need to be moved on.). And he left Zorn with 9 picks going into his first draft to start him off on a great footing. (1st/ 2nd/ 3rd x3/ 5th/ 6th and a 7th x2.).

Hail.

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Gibbs II was here for 3 years. Yes, he was team president. But Vnny was the director of player personnel. If you're going to blame Gibbs for it all then blame him for drafting Cooley and Sean Taylor as well and for bringing in London Fletcher.

The lack of OL, especially in recent years is definitely Vinny (or Snyder). Following the collapse after the Zorn/Campbell 6-2 start, the coaches all met and agreed it was the lack of depth and the injuries to the offensive line that created the collapse. It was reported that Vinny asked the question of the coaches "What happened?" and one of the coaches thought the anwer so obvious he thought it was a joke. The following year, sans Gibbs but a la Vinny, there were zero offensive linemen drafted by the Skins. This was when Viny drafted Devin Thomas with Chilo Rachal (picked up by SF in the second) still on the board. In fact, our 21st pick in the first round, traded to Atlanta, was used to draft their current starting tackle Sam Baker, so it wasn't a matter of not finding quality OL to play for the Skins, it was the complete and utter disregard for the importance of OL to an offense. The next year, injuries across the OL brought about the 4-12 season (better than the 3-13 I predicted).

The excuse then was "You can't predict injuries". Well, let me make a prediction: I'll bet you a dollar there'll be injuries on the OLine. For every year there is, you give me a dollar. For every year there isn't I'll give you 10 dollars. I'll be rich before you are.

Vinny was the problem then, not Gibbs.

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your preaching to the converted we all know the problems caused by vinny and his unusual way of building the franchise, but its obvious that isnt the redskins way now.

Last off season we built up the defence and special teams :this season we build up the offence, the only thing i ask is that we get a QB like Tebow who has guts and character and brains (but who can throw a bit better) but the thing i like most about Tebow is he is prepared to keep the ball and run it himself, that is true courage, and when he runs the ball he tries for every possible inch, i am very much impressed with him. Thank heavens vinny is gone and the owner is now a payer not a selecter; thats what owners should do, whether Gibbs is to carry any blame i am not sure, I dont know what arrangement he had with Dan Snyder, but i do know that Mike has the reins and the skins are better already, because of it we are improving slowly; more youth next off season and some good seasoned vets and we will improve again.

But as someone said in another post we are still at least 2 full seasons away from being contenders. The one improvement i am very happy with is the aussie at punter he is doing a great job and we should offer him an extension before too long, keeping Gano is also a good thing.

Be patient all, we are on the rise, you may not think so but we are: when the offence can keep the defence off the paddock then you will see a huge improvement in the way the skins play ball

HTTR

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Gibbs II was here for 3 years. Yes, he was team president. But Vnny was the director of player personnel. If you're going to blame Gibbs for it all then blame him for drafting Cooley and Sean Taylor as well and for bringing in London Fletcher.

The lack of OL, especially in recent years is definitely Vinny (or Snyder). Following the collapse after the Zorn/Campbell 6-2 start, the coaches all met and agreed it was the lack of depth and the injuries to the offensive line that created the collapse. It was reported that Vinny asked the question of the coaches "What happened?" and one of the coaches thought the anwer so obvious he thought it was a joke. The following year, sans Gibbs but a la Vinny, there were zero offensive linemen drafted by the Skins. This was when Viny drafted Devin Thomas with Chilo Rachal (picked up by SF in the second) still on the board. In fact, our 21st pick in the first round, traded to Atlanta, was used to draft their current starting tackle Sam Baker, so it wasn't a matter of not finding quality OL to play for the Skins, it was the complete and utter disregard for the importance of OL to an offense. The next year, injuries across the OL brought about the 4-12 season (better than the 3-13 I predicted).

The excuse then was "You can't predict injuries". Well, let me make a prediction: I'll bet you a dollar there'll be injuries on the OLine. For every year there is, you give me a dollar. For every year there isn't I'll give you 10 dollars. I'll be rich before you are.

Vinny was the problem then, not Gibbs.

Great post. Along with the OP, this post defines the crap years of Redskins football we have been forced to endure.

The telling thing we've seen with both Gibbs tenure and the post-Zorn era: Most of the people who have been released from these teams, were not picked up by other teams (a comment that others have made in this thread). So many of these guys (Marcus Washington comes to mind) stayed around on the roster 2-3 years too long because there was no talent behind them being groomed to step up to start.

A lot of people have said this is all on Shanahan, this is his roster now. I see this as more as this is not a cerrato roster anymore. Some of the guys on this team are only holding roster spots until Shanny can find the right guys. You can't gut a roster and fill it in 2 years.

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How much blame does Gibbs get?

exactly I totally agree..but alot of people don't want to tread on Holy ground with this thought....who in their right mind gives up a #1 for Jason Campbell coming off of only 1 good season in College, then going out and getting Mark Brunell....I mean c-mon Gibbs moves hurt this franchise as well imho

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I honestly don't know where this current team would be without Vinny. This season right now would be worse. He screwed allot of things up but playing WHAT IT at this stage is irrelevant. If you look at all the players outside of Ryan that are contributing to this team in a positive way they're literally vinny products.

We weren't exactly tearing it up before Vinny was hired to be our GM either. I think we we're pretty bad between 92-98. Just a little food for thought.

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exactly I totally agree..but alot of people don't want to tread on Holy ground with this thought....who in their right mind gives up a #1 for Jason Campbell coming off of only 1 good season in College, then going out and getting Mark Brunell....I mean c-mon Gibbs moves hurt this franchise as well imho

Yeah make no mistake, those were Gibbs architected teams.

I remember the Mark Wilosn and Jim Molinaro picks and thinking Gibbs was an idiot trying to draft people and make them into what they are not, like he did with the hogs. He was trying to duplicate history.

Vinnie Wasn't the GM dring Gibbs, he was just a talent evaluator. Gibbs made the picks.

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While painful to examine with all the details, even if previously known, laid out in once concise coherent post, it is another excellent point and superb /OP from NLC. I hope someday he is given more positive material with which to craft a new thread. :(

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I honestly don't know where this current team would be without Vinny. This season right now would be worse. He screwed allot of things up but playing WHAT IT at this stage is irrelevant. If you look at all the players outside of Ryan that are contributing to this team in a positive way they're literally vinny products.

:rolleyes:

That's because we're rebuilding after years of having no depth pretty much killed us. It's not about "what if". This is what actually happened.

Charlie Casserly wasn't the world's best general manager either, but nothing Casserly did has directly affected the team the way Vinny's time with the team from 2002-2009 did. Ultimately, it falls on the general manage to avoid situatiions like this. Gibbs had his responsibility and he certainly did not help, but somehow, Joe Gibbs managed to get our sorry team to the playoffs.

Now, I think people make too big deal out of the fact Gibbs got them to the playoffs, as there was virtually no way they would've won a Super Bowl with those team, and it speaks to how talented those teams really were, since in 2005 and 2007 we had to go on crazy ass runs to get INTO the playoffs, and immediately following both playoffs runs, the team had bad seasons.

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:rolleyes:

That's because we're rebuilding after years of having no depth pretty much killed us. It's not about "what if". This is what actually happened.

Charlie Casserly wasn't the world's best general manager either, but nothing Casserly did has directly affected the team the way Vinny's time with the team from 2002-2009 did. Ultimately, it falls on the general manage to avoid situatiions like this. Gibbs had his responsibility and he certainly did not help, but somehow, Joe Gibbs managed to get our sorry team to the playoffs.

Now, I think people make too big deal out of the fact Gibbs got them to the playoffs, as there was virtually no way they would've won a Super Bowl with those team, and it speaks to how talented those teams really were, since in 2005 and 2007 we had to go on crazy ass runs to get INTO the playoffs, and immediately following both playoffs runs, the team had bad seasons.

But those crazy ass runs happened. The same way you downplayed my "what if" claim. Joe stepped into a hell hole in 2004 and gave it all he had and made great things happen. The Spurrier team he inherited was a complete joke on both sides of the ball. The Front office was in shambles. He gave the team a complete makeover in 4 years. I just can't accept the vinny is taking full blame argument. He deserves his share, Dan deserves his and to some degree Joe does as well.

Leaving in 2008, when we we're on the cusp of great things set the team back. Outside of Fred Davis, Chad Rehinart, and Brian Orakpo Vinny had no clue what he was doing.

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yep, people still dont understand just how bad the roster and direction the franchise was headed toward when shanny took over. horrible and probably league worst.

the difference with shanny though, is that he is finally rebuilding after a decade plus of neglect. the gibbs and zorn eras didnt fix the real problem, they just delayed it by signing high priced free agents and trading away valuable picks.

that's why i dont understand why people slam the current regime for doing poorly. you cant expect a fast turnaround with the lack of draft picks and horrible depth (and starters) that this team had when he took over. to me, everything shanny has done so far has made sense, even if it wasnt the right decision in hindsight.

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While painful to examine with all the details, even if previously known, laid out in once concise coherent post, it is another excellent point and superb /OP from NLC. I hope someday he is given more positive material with which to craft a new thread. :(

These threads, while painful, help to keep us trained on the goal. The goal to rebuild this team no matter how frustrating in the near term. It will take time and patience.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana

So important to remember how we got here so we can figure out how to get the hell out.

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