Where We Were, How We Got Here, and Where We Go Next...

[RedskinsInFebruary]

The one thing that stands out about Shanahan/Allen to me is the way they conducted the draft (trading down for more and more picks)--that was impressive, although even having said that, I still question some of the picks. Other than that all I'm seeing is averageness.

And I really REALLY question the idea you can build with skill players and let the OL be an afterthought crapshoot. I think wisdom/experience dictates you build the other way around. But that's just my unprofessional opinion.

[Pitbull]

Even though I know we have injuries, should that be a sole excuse for yesterday? I mean I'm a high school football coach, and I realize when I dont have certain players on the field I have to adjust my play calling to fit what my players on the field can do. It doesnt mean I have to be vanilla, just means I have to adjust the way we run the play to take advantage of what my players can do well.

I realize high school is a far stretch from the NFL but even talking and meeting NFL coaches, some and most fundamentals are the same on every level. I dont understand, once we realize that we couldnt protect John Beck, why we didnt adjust our play calling, moving the pocket, roll outs, and things of that nature.

The argument of play calling does have some substance in my opinion. If you have QB thats not as experience, you give him simple high impact plays, to help him get into a rythme. We allowed Buffalo to T-off on us with no adjustment to take advantage of their aggression.

[Hitman21ST]

If Gabbert or Ponder wind up being stars, then we most likely made a mistake passing on them. Only time will tell if waiting to address QB was worth it.

And that's not even true if the QB we get in the draft next year is better than them.

[Destino]

Kleese I like what you did but I think you got lost in the weeds a little bit. There are levels and responsibilities that come with those levels. This franchise and Dan Snyder's biggest mistake is failing to understand his role and his responsibility. He is supposed to set the tone and the direction of the franchise. Sadly, unknowingly, he did exactly that... the Redskins became a place to come get paid that lacked anything resembling consistency.

Now what do I mean by consistency?

Norv's offense is nothing like what Marty runs but Marty was a big name so... what could go wrong? Marty wanted to be a GM and coach and Dan didn't like his style.

Marty's offense is nothing like the "ol ball coach" but Spurrier was a big name every team wanted.... what could go wrong? The lack of a real GM and the willingness to let a coach with zero professional experience pick players well known for being bad didn't help the Spurrier era. Spurrier quit.

Pitch and Catch looks nothing like Joe Gibbs ground and pound. Again however Gibbs is a big name and Snyder loves big names. Gibbs had some success but he wasn't a long term solution and it was assumed one of the two coordinators would take over and bring consistency. That wasn't to be.

The coaching search flopped and the team ended up promoting a QB coach, brought in to be a coordinator, to head coach. Jim Zorn came to town and the Redskins looked entirely lost.

What does Snyder do reliably? BIG NAME BABY! Shanahan comes to town wanting to run a 3-4 defense and a zone blocking offense. Everyone on the roster has to go. Bruce Allen is brought in after Vinny is finally mercifully asked to leave. Shanahan, as I understand it, has more control than Bruce Allen.

And here we are. Dan most likely hasn't realized that his job is to prevent the upheaval I listed above. I didn't even talk about player personnel moves because that is not Dan Snyder's role. His role is to hire the men that should be responsible for that and making sure they fit the identity and tone of the team. That is what Dan Snyder has done to get us here. Every coaching change has been a mistake because every single one took the team in a radically different direction. Meanwhile the GM situation has been unforgivable and Dan decided who would handle that.

Dan Snyder needs to decide just who the hell the Redskins are going to be. What kind of team is this? The coaches brought in and the players need to fit the general tone of the team. I don't know when the Shanahan era ends or how but that will test Snyders growth. If he goes out and hires a power running coach that has no use for Shanahan's zone blocking line and gives him full power over the organization we will know Dan Snyder hasn't learned a damn thing and this franchise is doomed with a painfully stubborn moron that falls in loves with resumes.

[Boss_Hogg]

If you are thinking Kyle gets a free pass, you are mistaken. What do you want? Fire him?

If you think we have a roster better than 6 or so wins, you are mistaken. What do you want?

I agree we should have gutted the team in it's entirety including Cooley, Moss, D Hall, Sellers, but that wouldn't have made anyone happy either.

We are who everyone thought we were. A bad team in the rebuilding process. What did you want?

How about some god **** effort. How about some heart, IMO Fletch is the only Redskin with heart.

I want to see a plan, I want to see strides in the right direction. I see none of that, I see a poorly prepared team with inept coaching.

IMO the inept coaching is the most damning aspect of all, especially for a "rebuilding" team.

---------- Post added November-1st-2011 at 01:09 AM ----------

100% of th time an NFL team gets blow out, frustrated fans accuse them of quitting. We got our tails kicked and no doubt we were discouraged late in the game, but I didn't think they "quit."

2/5 of the OL is out... Including the #4 overall pick in the draft. Our 2011 starting OL was 100% different than the starting OL at the end of 2009. So stating we didn't address the OL is a factual error.

So you state you think we've done a terrible job with the OL and QB, but that you want Kyle held responsible for their lack of performance?

If Gabbert or Ponder wind up being stars, then we most likely made a mistake passing on them. Only time will tell if waiting to address QB was worth it.

The 2011 OL has zero depth.

They started the season with 8 wrs and no backup guards. They picked up a 30 year old journey man (locklear) and a undrafted tackle (willie smith).

Kyle needs to adjust his playcalling due to the low talent on offense. How about a nice balance of run and pass? Maybe a screen play to Helu?

---------- Post added November-1st-2011 at 01:13 AM ----------

Even though I know we have injuries, should that be a sole excuse for yesterday? I mean I'm a high school football coach, and I realize when I dont have certain players on the field I have to adjust my play calling to fit what my players on the field can do. It doesnt mean I have to be vanilla, just means I have to adjust the way we run the play to take advantage of what my players can do well.

I realize high school is a far stretch from the NFL but even talking and meeting NFL coaches, some and most fundamentals are the same on every level. I dont understand, once we realize that we couldnt protect John Beck, why we didnt adjust our play calling, moving the pocket, roll outs, and things of that nature.

The argument of play calling does have some substance in my opinion. If you have QB thats not as experience, you give him simple high impact plays, to help him get into a rythme. We allowed Buffalo to T-off on us with no adjustment to take advantage of their aggression.

this

Why no max-protect Kyle? Put Paulsen or young back there for blocking help.

[scruffylookin]

That is a fantastic post. I have a quibble here and there but overall your assessment of the last twenty years is spot on.

[Toe Jam]

Thank you for that, Kleese.

Helped put things in perspective a little bit for me.

[SusqySkin]

Love the spin on the negative OP. Takes a true fan to make that post. My ? is, I wonder if Allen will make his way around the tailgate this up and coming Sunday like before the Iggles game

[Redskins4ever]

The Redskins need to have longer practices obviously, and repeat certain executions and situations repetitiously in practice so that they will be sharper on game day. There's no other way than this for them to get better on both sides of the ball.

[hail2skins]

Saying hiring Norv was a huge mistake is the typical kneejerk reaction from Redskins fans who compare Norv's time here to pretty much what he immediately followed, the first Joe Gibbs era, once which, as you said, will be one we'll look at as the golden age of our lifetimes. No, Norv was pretty bad, but have the following 11 years been any better? If you're going to look at a mistake from that time, JKC not firing Norv either after 1997 or during 1998 was the big one.

As much as it pains me to say, bringing back a 64-year-old Gibbs was a mistake. It wouldn't have been as bad if Snyder had gotten him, say, five years earlier when he took over, but at that point it wasn't hard to surmise that Joe had a limited shelf life. The team probably needed to be rebuilt again and Joe/Vinny did bring in some young talent, but not enough.

As many have stated in other threads, we really have no choice but to hold our noses and give Shanny more time, at least until the end of 2013 when (HOPEFULLY!) he has acquired a QB that gets some playing time at some point in 2012 and is able to take the reins for good in 2013. As Scruffy mentioned in the Czaban thread, the QB angst is the thing driving Skins fans nuts right now.

I do think people might be putting too much blind faith in Shanahan right now because there's no real alternative and because the whole churn and burn thing for Snyder's first decade got tiresome. But the on-field results after a season and a half are so for very Zorn-ian. I plead guilty to being one of those who tired of Zorn early on, and if the end result of that adventure was Vinny getting canned, any collateral damage was worth it. But you can't help but look back and think that Zorn was the one who got the raw deal in it all.

Finally, when Shanny does decide to retire, whenever that may be, it'll be interesting to see if Allen or whoever can persuade Snyder to hire a young coordinator insttead of a big name. Something tells me that job is going to be like making a little kid eat spinach.

[FSUSkins24]

But the on-field results after a season and a half are so far very Zorn-ian.

Comments like this KILL me. Let's look at their win percentages.

Shanny = 9-14 (.391)

Zorn = 12-20 (.267)

Let's take an even closer look season by season starting with 2007...

2007 Gibbs: 9-7 Wild Card Playoff Berth after losing our best defensive weapon and number 5 overall pick from 2004. We should've had him for years to come. ST21 RIP.

2008 Zorn: 8-8 What starts off as a promising 6-2 first half, ends with a disappointing 2-6

2009 Zorn: 4-12 The most painful season in my memory, the lowest of lows. We end the season as the 4th worst team in the league.

2010 Shanny: 6-10 6-10 is not a bad record for a team that just went 4-12 and 6 of those 10 games were by 4 points or less (moral victories are okay when you were just 4th worst in the league)

2011 Shanny: 3-4 Not even a full season in our 2nd year of what is supposed to be a 5 year rebuild and the wheels seemingly have fallen off. But all was swell before a series of injuries to our OL, our top WR, and our top RB (arguably). And well our QB situation has sucked ALL YEAR. But we still don't know what's in store for us in the next 9 games.

So Zorn inherited a 9-7 playoff team and in two years turned it into a 4th worst in the league 4-12. Shanahan inherited a 4-12 team and improved the win count by 2 his first year, and less than halfway into his second season he is 3-4. I mean if the guy even wins one more game than he did the previous season during his rebuild it looks like this...

2011: 7-9

2012: 8-8

2013: 9-7

2014: 10-6

Do I think it happens like this? Probably not, but who says it can't. Shanahan and Allen seem to understand how the draft works. If we continue to draft the way we did this past offseason for 3 more seasons I see no reason why we can't be a 10 win team at the end of 2014. Good teams build through the draft. The Skins haven't been a good team because they haven't BUILT THROUGH THE DRAFT.

I understand we are all die hard fans (hence the name of the board) and we want to win now. No excuses! but we've given Shanahan less than 30% of the time he asked of us... patience is a virtue, people. It's a lot easier to turn a playoff team into trash like Zorn did, than turn trash into a playoff team like Shanahan is trying to.

Thank you for letting me get that off my chest.

[Forever21]

My point here is that I believe we have truly tried ONCE to rebuild this team since 1992....the Norv era. That was an honest rebuild effort that just didn't go well. After that, through a series of bad decisions and bad luck we really never tried to fully rebuild the team.

Until now.

I do believe that Allen and Shanny have been giving full control and that they are attempting an honest to goodness rebuild project.

But don't you see what they are up against? Don't you see this history? It WAY pre-dates Snyder even.

This is why I am patient...willing to go week to week with these guys....year to year. I do not agree with everything they've done, every hire they've made, every pick they've made, etc... but I do firmly believe they are giving it the first real attempt we've had a rebuild since entering the 1994 season.

I have no idea how it will end up....but I believe in the philosophy here. That makes a 23-0 loss no less frustrating...but I do not feel a sense of hopelessness anymore. Stay the course, fellas. You are going to have to deal with some real venom from some fans and media who can't take anymore. But just stay the course.

For the first time since the 1994-1995, I feel like the Redskins are willing to stomach what it takes. I just hope it goes better this time around.

This is what I have been saying in various threads and I have been accused of being a homer and been told I am wearing the 'rose coloured glasses'.

When games happen like the one on Sunday people react emotionally and they forget about how bad things were when this current regime took over. All they can see is the disaster that is our current team. They lost their patience which is the thing we all need the most right now.

We have to give Allen and Shanahan a full five years to rebuild this thing. Otherwise it's the same crap over again. Things are brutal right now but sometimes this is the kind of pain a team has to go through in order to come out positively on the other side.

[hail2skins]

ODU, I hear what you are saying but......lets not forget that Shanny's 6-10 posting last year incuded a 2-7 finish. Not exactly a mark of a team on the upswing. And this year's 3-4....maybe not as putrid as Zorn's 2009 start, but looking similar to another coach who only lasted here two years.....Spurrier's 2003.

The phrase "Zorn inherited a playoff roster" is one of those subject to debate......after all, it came from the mouth of Vinny, and we all know how much credibility he has. The 2007 season is an interesting one. True we did have a 5-3 record at one point, and the injury to ST (and of course his unfortunate murder)......who knows how we do if he would'nt have gotten hurt. On the other hand, after all that, does anyone think we make the playoffs if Campbell doesn't go down that year? And I'm not sure how you explain the 6-2 start the next season.

[FSUSkins24]

hail2skins,

It seems we always start off decent and poo poo the rest of the season. But there is something about this management and the way it's being run that gives me hope. There is no point in me trying to explain it because no matter how good the reasoning in my opinion somebody else can feel strongly the other way. And someone can feel strongly about something that I completely disagree with, you know?

That Bills loss was about as bad as it gets. Nothing redeemable in my opinion. But I just feel like deep down we're gonna suffer a bit before things get better because you don't just get good right away.

I think it was Destino that touched on it, but the worst thing the Skins could do right now is bring in another coaching regime and create further inconsistency in the organization. For now let's let things play out and see what Shanny can do. If at the end of the 3rd season we are regressing or staying about the same my opinion might change (but even still we'll be hopeful because he'll have most likely drafted a QB in the 2012 draft).

We can't just get a new coach every two years. It takes longer than that to build a winner, especially when you have to get rid of everybody that doesn't fit your system.

[HogNose]

We hire Norv... this is what I would call HUGE MISTAKE NUMBER ONE

Big mistake yes, but at the time it seemed like such a brilliant move by Cooke. Norv was fresh off a SB win, and Cooke & Casserly were hiring the guy that was credited with mentoring Aikman. What could be better. I believe hiring Norv was much less of a risk for Cooke because of the success he saw with Gibbs. Remember that Beathard had to talk Cooke into hiring Gibbs in '81 because Cooke was reluctant about hiring an OC without HC experience. It worked out and the rest is history.

Btw, I always wonder how things would have worked out if the Redskins had drafted Trent Dilfer instead of Shuler. We could have drafted Dilfer and Kurt Warner in '94. Warner might have had better success early on with Norv and co. Instead we got Shuler and :gus: :doh:

[HailRiggoRanger]

Excellent post. One of the best ones I've read. Just want to add one big missing puzzle piece all those years -- no franchise QB.

[Skinsinparadise]

It's a good assessment. while I love Gibbs I'd put more on him than you do when it came to short term moves, during his era we got old, signed some free agent busts, and traded a way a ton of draft picks leaving almost no foundation to build on.

[USS Redskins]

A good read.

Where am I at as a fan - I look at the team and honestly think that they are worse now in November 2011 than they were in September 2010. I dont see 6 wins from this team and no progress that other fans tell me is there.

If this is the right direction then someone's compass is broken.

[kleese]

Let me clarify... I am saying that in hindsight, hiring Norv was obviously one major move made by JKC that helped put us on this path. I agree that at the time Norv was a hot commodity. The Cooke family just had too much faith in him.

[Skinzfever2010]

Let me clarify... I am saying that in hindsight, hiring Norv was obviously one major move made by JKC that helped put us on this path. I agree that at the time Norv was a hot commodity. The Cooke family just had too much faith in him.

Stats prove you wrong. Statistically he has been this teams best head coach since Gibbs 1.

[kleese]

Stats prove you wrong. Statistically he has been this teams best head coach since Gibbs 1.

Norv = one playoff appearance in seven seasons

Gibbs II = two playoff appearances in four seasons

And Norv may very well be the best coach we've had in twenty years... Doesn't mean he wasn't bad.

I would love to hear the argument how Norv deserved to be around for 1999 after 1998. He got flat lucky with the ownership issue that off season.

And I'm also not sure what "stats" you are using.... By my calculations (excluding the 2000 season when he was fired late) Norv won an average of 7 games per year.... Gibbs just under 8

[Skinzfever2010]

Norv = one playoff appearance in six seasons

Gibbs II = two playoff appearances in four seasons

And Norv may very well be the best coach we've had in twenty years... Doesn't mean he wasn't bad.

I would love to hear the argument how Norv deserved to be around for 1999 after 1998. He got flat lucky with the ownership issue that off season.

Sorry but I said Gibbs 1.

It would be nice to have an offense here now. Or better yet the last couple of years.

[bowhunter]

If you have QB thats not as experience, you give him simple high impact plays, to help him get into a rythme. /QUOTE]

There once was a QB named Luck,

For him, many teams would suck,

Every loss just enhances

Our very slim chances,

But without him, our team would be ****ed

[kleese]

If you have QB thats not as experience, you give him simple high impact plays, to help him get into a rythme. /QUOTE]

There once was a QB named Luck,

For him, many teams would suck,

Every loss just enhances

Our very slim chances,

But without him, our team would be ****ed

Would you give up the following:

2011 1st rounder

2011 2nd rounder

2011 4th rounder

2012 1st rounder

2012 3rd rounder

Orakpo

Would you do that for Luck?

IMO, that is Approx what the first pick in the draft will cost this year. It may very well be worth it....

[bowhunter]

Would you give up the following:

2011 1st rounder

2011 2nd rounder

2011 4th rounder

2012 1st rounder

2012 3rd rounder

Orakpo

Would you do that for Luck?

IMO, that is Approx what the first pick in the draft will cost this year. It may very well be worth it....

On no Kleese, I wouldn't want to trade away the future for Luck. We have way too many holes, and there are too many potential starting QBs in this years draft. We need a TEAM, not just a QB. I was just playing off of pitbulls wording og getting into a "rhythme" which looked quite similar to "rhyme":D