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Questions about NFCE/Redskins and what it takes to be successful in this division and other questions...


brandymac27

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Given the past few seasons, I was just wondering if the NFCE is still as rough and tough as it once used to be. Personally, I don't think it is. When you consider the Redskins and other NFCE teams and compare us to teams in other divisions, I don't see a big difference. I would even say that I'd rather face teams in our own division than certain other teams outside of the NFCE....like the 49ers, Ravens, Lions, etc. To be honest, even the lowly Panthers game is starting to scare me.

All this leads me to ask...if you are of the opinion that the NFCE is still the NFC Beast, one of the tougher divisions in the NFL, what does it actually take for certain people (Players, Coaches, etc) to come to Washington and be successful?

I ask this b/c I have heard a few times on here that Kyle got lucky in Houston due to his QB, WR's etc, and had he been anywhere else (like he is now, with us), he would have struggled. I hear people say "Kyle, this is the NFCE, your not in Houston anymore". My question is...what does this really mean considering our division really isn't that great?

Yes, he had great talent in Houston, but IMO, the NFCE teams this season (and the past couple of seasons) have not compared to other teams, including the Texans when Kyle was there.

Something else that's been on my mind....our QB's. We all know that Beck will be starting this weekend. But what does it mean if Beck does really bad as the starter? We know Mike made a mistake in Donovan, and it seems he made a mistake in Rex as well (even if Kyle was behind starting Rex, Mike has the upper hand and ultimately should have said "heck no" if he felt Rex was that bad), and now we've moved on w/ Beck. So far, Mike is 0-2 w/ QB's here. If Beck stinks, what does this say about his ability to pick good QB"s?

And more importantly, what does it mean for this upcoming draft? Do we trust him to pick a franchise QB (or even a good QB) in the draft considering (if Beck stinks) he'll be 0-3 for QB's in 2 years?

Thoughts?

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Given the past few seasons, I was just wondering if the NFCE is still as rough and tough as it once used to be. Personally, I don't think it is. When you consider the Redskins and other NFCE teams and compare us to teams in other divisions, I don't see a big difference. I would even say that I'd rather face teams in our own division than certain other teams outside of the NFCE....like the 49ers, Ravens, Lions, etc. To be honest, even the lowly Panthers game is starting to scare me.
I think it's possible that a 9-7 team could win our division this season.
All this leads me to ask...if you are of the opinion that the NFCE is still the NFC Beast, one of the tougher divisions in the NFL, what does it actually take for certain people (Players, Coaches, etc) to come to Washington and be successful?
I don't think there are any dominant teams this season. The Ravens (spit) might be the best balanced, offense and defense. Green Bay can be outscored. So, I think the Skins situation is close to being as good as any. We're an average team.
I ask this b/c I have heard a few times on here that Kyle got lucky in Houston due to his QB, WR's etc, and had he been anywhere else (like he is now, with us), he would have struggled. I hear people say "Kyle, this is the NFCE, your not in Houston anymore". My question is...what does this really mean considering our division really isn't that great?
I think Kyle was over-hyped coming in, but he's being unfairly hammered now by fans who are geniuses in hindsight when plays don't work.
Something else that's been on my mind....our QB's. We all know that Beck will be starting this weekend. But what does it mean if Beck does really bad as the starter? We know Mike made a mistake in Donovan, and it seems he made a mistake in Rex as well (even if Kyle was behind starting Rex, Mike has the upper hand and ultimately should have said "heck no" if he felt Rex was that bad), and now we've moved on w/ Beck. So far, Mike is 0-2 w/ QB's here. If Beck stinks, what does this say about his ability to pick good QB"s?
If Beck stinks, Mike's reputation will take a big hit. He's down in the count 0-2 (McNabb and Grossman). If he misses on Beck, he strikes out. However, I think Beck will come through for him. Scheme fit is very important and Beck fits Shanny's scheme. I think he has enough talent to be a pretty good QB.
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Oldfan: I think it's possible that a 9-7 team could win our division this season.

I agree, but that still doesn't mean we can compete with some of the other teams that are outside of our division. And does the fact that a 9-7 team could win the division make the NFCE any better or worse than other divisions?

I don't think there are any dominant teams this season. The Ravens (spit) might be the best balanced, offense and defense. Green Bay can be outscored. So, I think the Skins situation is close to being as good as any. We're an average team.

I agree that we're average right now. Let me rephrase. If the NFCE were still the toughest division in the NFL, what would it take for a player or coach to come into the division or our team and be successful?

I think Kyle was over-hyped coming in, but he's being unfairly hammered now by fans who are geniuses in hindsight when plays don't work.

Why did you think he was over- hyped? Was it b/c of his supporting cast in Houston? Lack of talent here or something different?

If Beck stinks, Mike's reputation will take a big hit. He's down in the count 0-2 (McNabb and Grossman). If he misses on Beck, he strikes out. However, I think Beck will come through for him. Scheme fit is very important and Beck fits Shanny's scheme. I think he has enough talent to be a pretty good QB.

I agree with this. If Beck is horrible, Mike is gonna have problems IMO. And honestly, I can't say whether I think Beck will do well or not. IMO, pre season and the Eagles game isn't enough to make a judgement call. Either way, I don't think he's a long term solution, so where does that leave us? If we go to the draft to hopefully get our franchise QB, is MIke the guy we want picking him after striking out?

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I don't believe any team has won the NFC East with less than 10 wins. Given that each team plays the NFC West, plus Miami and a clearly diminished Jets squad, I find it highly unlikely that anything less than 10 wins will be enough to win the East.

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I agree, but that still doesn't mean we can compete with some of the other teams that are outside of our division. And does the fact that a 9-7 team could win the division make the NFCE any better or worse than other divisions?
When I say a 9-7 record could win the division, I mean that there are no outstanding teams in it. As to overall strength, I'd guess the NFCE at "average."
I agree that we're average right now. Let me rephrase. If the NFCE were still the toughest division in the NFL, what would it take for a player or coach to come into the division or our team and be successful?
It would take a much better performance.
Why did you think he was over- hyped? Was it b/c of his supporting cast in Houston? Lack of talent here or something different?
Our members tend to jump to conclusions on little evidence. I think, coming in, they went overboard on Kyle's contribution to a highly ranked Texans offense.
I agree with this. If Beck is horrible, Mike is gonna have problems IMO. And honestly, I can't say whether I think Beck will do well or not. IMO, pre season and the Eagles game isn't enough to make a judgement call. Either way, I don't think he's a long term solution, so where does that leave us? If we go to the draft to hopefully get our franchise QB, is MIke the guy we want picking him after striking out?
I think the 30-year old Beck is potentially a grade B quarterback which is good enough to be a five or six year solution. You can win Super Bowls with grade B quarterbacks with a grade A supporting cast.

If Beck fails and Mike strikes out, we can't trust his judgment on QBs going forward.

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Oldfan,

Let's just say Beck does great the rest of this season. Do we skip out on a QB in the draft if you think he could play for 5-6 years? And as far as that goes, considering he hasn't played much and his body isn't beaten and banged up, he could possibly play for 5-6 years if he's that good of a QB. I still think that regardless of how he plays we get a QB in the draft. I'm just not too sold on the idea that Mike should be the one picking him.

As far as everything else you posted, I'm pretty much in agreement with.

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Oldfan,

Let's just say Beck does great the rest of this season. Do we skip out on a QB in the draft if you think he could play for 5-6 years? And as far as that goes, considering he hasn't played much and his body isn't beaten and banged up, he could possibly play for 5-6 years if he's that good of a QB. I still think that regardless of how he plays we get a QB in the draft. I'm just not too sold on the idea that Mike should be the one picking him.

As far as everything else you posted, I'm pretty much in agreement with.

If Beck proves to be a grade B quarterback who could play for 5-6 years, it would mean that Mike hit a home run, getting a good QB for nothing. His reputation would saved and you should have faith in his judgment.

It would mean also that finding a QB would not be a priority. We could spend our high draft picks on positions of greater need, giving Beck, and any QB who might follow him, a better supporting cast.

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9-7 is not winning the division. the giants are going to go 10-6

NO chance the Giants win 10 games. First off, only 2 of their wins have been convincing. They're not as good as they're record. Second their schedule is BRUTAL. The Cowboys are going to destory them twice, Green Bay will smoke their secondary, New England and New Orleans same story. Thats 5 more losses on top of their current 2 = 7. 9-7 AT BEST for the Giants. I'm not even mentioning the Jets or 49ers or even US who could also beat them.

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I think it's possible that a 9-7 team could win our division this season.

I don't think there are any dominant teams this season. The Ravens (spit) might be the best balanced, offense and defense. Green Bay can be outscored. So, I think the Skins situation is close to being as good as any. We're an average team.

I think Kyle was over-hyped coming in, but he's being unfairly hammered now by fans who are geniuses in hindsight when plays don't work.

If Beck stinks, Mike's reputation will take a big hit. He's down in the count 0-2 (McNabb and Grossman). If he misses on Beck, he strikes out. However, I think Beck will come through for him. Scheme fit is very important and Beck fits Shanny's scheme. I think he has enough talent to be a pretty good QB.

I would give Mike a chance to draft his own QB before striking him out. IMO

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Something else that's been on my mind....our QB's. We all know that Beck will be starting this weekend. But what does it mean if Beck does really bad as the starter? We know Mike made a mistake in Donovan, and it seems he made a mistake in Rex as well (even if Kyle was behind starting Rex, Mike has the upper hand and ultimately should have said "heck no" if he felt Rex was that bad), and now we've moved on w/ Beck. So far, Mike is 0-2 w/ QB's here. If Beck stinks, what does this say about his ability to pick good QB"s?

And more importantly, what does it mean for this upcoming draft? Do we trust him to pick a franchise QB (or even a good QB) in the draft considering (if Beck stinks) he'll be 0-3 for QB's in 2 years?

Thoughts?

You also have to take into consideration his choices. What other choices would you suggest he should have taken? Brady and Manning arent exactly on the market. He tried for probably the best veteran available at the time in McNabb. McNabb turned out to not be a great decision, but the majority of analysts and fans were agreed it was a genius move. We all thought Rex would be a decent backup, and he is. No one expected him to have to be the starter. Beck was set up as the emergency QB, which also was good. If you look at it like that, he's fantastic. We have a 3rd string QB who can do decent against starters....similar to the Steelers' setup. Because of the lockout, one mistake led to 2 and possibly 3. Once McNabb failed, the lockout came and we had pretty much NO offseason. Seeing as everyone seems to piss and moan when we sign a veteran, i don't see how anyone can complain that he didn't. We could have taken Hasselback, Leinart, Jackson, or Young in free agency. We could have traded for Palmer or Orton. Which of those do you value above Rex or Beck? Seems to me he figured if McNabb didnt work, lets just rebuild this awful defense. keep our mediocre QBs so we can do decent for a season and build up morale, then go for our QB of the future in the next draft which is rich in QB talent. I see Shanahan keeping Beck and Rex for a year rather than signing a big check to a free agent that is washed up like usual or trading draft picks for a QB that isnt going to be the solution.

I just don't get how he has 3 strikes. Yeah, he says he's staking his reputation on the guys. What is he supposed to say? "Eh, they might do alright, but i don't have a lot of faith." Quotes and stupid commitments like that only matter to the media and shallower fans. Everyone else sees the bigger picture.

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What about completely passing on McNabb and (I can't believe I'm getting ready to say this) keeping JC until this draft? I mean, we stunk anyway w/ McNabb here and at least we'd still have our picks.

---------- Post added October-19th-2011 at 08:01 PM ----------

The NFC Beast is certainly a shell of it's former self. Not as physical, not as run oriented aka smashmouth. Some good defenses still but not shut down and as tough as it used to be..more about speed these days and passing attacks it seems.

This I completely agree with.

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...I just don't get how he has 3 strikes. Yeah, he says he's staking his reputation on the guys. What is he supposed to say? "Eh, they might do alright, but i don't have a lot of faith." Quotes and stupid commitments like that only matter to the media and shallower fans. Everyone else sees the bigger picture.

Mike is the expert, it doesn't matter that most fans and the media thought McNabb was a good idea. Mike was supposed to KNOW. Strike one.

Grossman is a good backup but Mike made him his starter. Rex failed. Strike Two.

Mike promoted John Beck as a QB he can win with. He said he had no doubt that Beck could cut it. If Beck fails, Strike Three.

I don't think Beck will fail, but strictly from the standpoint of his reputation, Mike erred in not starting Beck in the first place. Had he portrayed Rex as his backup, then Beck's failure would only be strike two. Mike didn't have to put his reputation on the line for Rex.

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Given the past few seasons, I was just wondering if the NFCE is still as rough and tough as it once used to be.

I don't think it is. The Cowboys have proven to be far less resilient than everyone thought a short couple of seasons ago, the Eagles are following our old tried and blue formula for buying a disastrous year, and the Giants are unpredictable and inconsistent.

As for US, we've got a killer defense and a serviceable offense but nobody at the helm to make it go. I don't care how many parts you put into place in the NFL, without at least a decent game manager (a la Kerry Collins w/Tennessee) to not give the game away no team will have any shot at going deep in the playoffs. Right now we are that team.

Something else that's been on my mind....our QB's. We all know that Beck will be starting this weekend. But what does it mean if Beck does really bad as the starter? We know Mike made a mistake in Donovan, and it seems he made a mistake in Rex as well (even if Kyle was behind starting Rex, Mike has the upper hand and ultimately should have said "heck no" if he felt Rex was that bad), and now we've moved on w/ Beck.

I'm beginning to come around to the fact that neither Rex nor Beck are the answer - meaning it's the draft or a trade. I would prefer the former, but that also means some time for the kid to learn the ropes. I wouldn't want to take the chance of throwing a rookie in their for a baptism of fire only to see him get overwhelmed and battle-scarred before he comes into his own.

So far, Mike is 0-2 w/ QB's here. If Beck stinks, what does this say about his ability to pick good QB"s?

I'm not sure we can conclude that Shanny is a poor judge of QB talent because of the McNabb/Grossman/and now Beck carousel. The trade for Mac was a mistake, no dougt about it. Rex was probably here as a solid backup initially, but got thrust into the starting spot when our former Eagle savior failed miserably. I don't know for sure but I think we added Beck as the same thing A YEAR OR TWO AT THE MOST. Shanny probably wanted to address other areas of need first through the draft and judicious trades, and not break the bank with another mega-move like his first unsuccessful one. Perhaps he hoped Rex could have a career year and propel us beyond our where we are in our building process, but he must now be sure that's not gonna happen.

I think he's looking to bring in another body for next year no matter how the rest of this season plays out. I just hope he sticks to his guns and does it the right way, with the right player for this team and this system.

All of this is pure conjecture, you understand. It's what I do. :D

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If Beck fails and Mike strikes out, we can't trust his judgment on QBs going forward.

This is the only thing you said in this thread that I disagreed with essentially because we have no choice. If the fan base believes that Mike cannot find a QB then how will the next 3 years go?

Look at what Oakland's done recently

Redskins trade Jason Campbell to Raiders

Sunday, April 25, 2010

Raiders Take Pryor in Supplemental Draft

Posted Aug 25, 2011

Carson Palmer traded to Raiders

October 18, 2011

If I were running a football team that had talent like they do on offense I would do everything in my power to land a QB like they did. The old saying you can't bake a cake without cracking some eggs applies. And just because you strike out on one, two, three or more you can't give up trying. You have no other choice but to keep trying and eventually you hope you get one right. I don't think just because Mike thought like Minnesota did that McNabb had enough left in the tank to warrant a 2nd and 4th round draft pick says he can't spot talent. Just the season prior McNabb took the Eagles to the playoffs. The game hadn't passed him by completely. I thought it was kind of a no brainer that with Rex being as familiar with the playbook that he ended up here, just like Todd Collins did. And while we are down on Rex this year at least we can say he has a winning record as our starter because of that. Who knew that Rex was about to throw 4 bad interceptions last game? To me just because those two moves failed doesn't mean anything. They were who we thought they were, a guy on the downside of his career and a turnover prone QB.

Personally I haven't lost faith that Mike can't spot a QB. The last QB he drafted was traded to another team after being drafted and with only two years of starting for a starting QB, 2 first round draft picks, and a third. That tells me he can spot talent at the position. I also believe that John Beck will rally this team and play as you said as a 'B' rated QB. I trust Mikes judgment. If Beck plays poorly well the bars so low at 4 INT's in a game it would be hard to do as poorly anyway. If he's worse then that we have Rex in the wings. It's time to give the ball to John Beck and hope for the best.

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The NFC East's reputation an unusually tough division is really based on the fact that all four teams have huge markets, deep pockets, and ownership that tends not to be terribly complacent. This long-standing notion people have that it's tough because it's inherently more physical or more smashmouth than other divisions is pretty much bunk.

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Oldfan,

Let's just say Beck does great the rest of this season. Do we skip out on a QB in the draft if you think he could play for 5-6 years? And as far as that goes, considering he hasn't played much and his body isn't beaten and banged up, he could possibly play for 5-6 years if he's that good of a QB. I still think that regardless of how he plays we get a QB in the draft. I'm just not too sold on the idea that Mike should be the one picking him.

As far as everything else you posted, I'm pretty much in agreement with.

My answer is yes to your question for the following reasons. One with a solid backup QB you now have confidence that in case of an emergency your covered. Two currently we don't have a solid backup now as Grossman is on a one year deal. Three because Becks not played much we don't know how much of a beating he can actually handle. Four if said backup rookie is that good we could always trade him to a QB needy team for future picks. And last because of the new NFL salary cap on rookies I believe the trend to draft QB's in the early rounds will continue going forward and if your forced to pay someone the highest amounts of money then to keep the parity in salaries in line you would want to spend that money on a QB, simple economics.

Beck is only signed through 2012 and will be a Free Agent in 2013. Next years 1st round draftee will sign a 4 year contract. What would we do if we did draft a first round QB who's contract expires in 2016 and with us needing to re-sign Beck in 2013? If Beck plays great he's not going to accept a two year contract in 2013, so there you have the problem. If we draft a QB in 2012's NFL draft which I believe we will you have to map out a plan for him. We would have to showcase the rookie QB at some point and let him play, so if I had to guess the rookie QB would likely play in 2014. So what we will see happen is that we draft a QB this year and plan to re-sign Beck in 2013 to a one year contract and then hand the team over to the rookie QB in 2014 and Beck leaves. Just my hunch how it plays out.

If Beck is really great this year and teams can't handle him then maybe drafting a QB in the first round is a bad idea and we sign Beck in 2013 to a 5 year deal but that completely depends on how he performs

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Mike is the expert, it doesn't matter that most fans and the media thought McNabb was a good idea. Mike was supposed to KNOW. Strike one.

Grossman is a good backup but Mike made him his starter. Rex failed. Strike Two.

Mike promoted John Beck as a QB he can win with. He said he had no doubt that Beck could cut it. If Beck fails, Strike Three.

I don't think Beck will fail, but strictly from the standpoint of his reputation, Mike erred in not starting Beck in the first place. Had he portrayed Rex as his backup, then Beck's failure would only be strike two. Mike didn't have to put his reputation on the line for Rex.

Still, my point is, who is available that is better than Beck and Rex? Doesnt matter if Rex and Beck fail if there isnt anyone better.

Besides, the guy is a proven winner. I hardly think he needs to prove himself to anyone anymore.

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