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Abbas, Netanyahu, & the U.N. adress this a.m. (9-23-11)


Jumbo

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I'm not posting any articles in the OP yet, guys, and I hoped a thread on this (today's addresses as happening) would already exist. But I will kick this one off with saying that while Netanyahu is just finishing speaking, this has been the most clearly stated, supportable, direct, and (IMO) admirable presentation of Israel’s position in quite awhile. While there are still areas of genuine debate and challenge, of course, his positions were stated much more usefully, articulately, and legitimately than Abbas' disappointing remarks IMV.

I got the sense that Abbas was speaking mainly to reinforce his personal political position by showing his constituency how much applause he could get from factions in the U.N. less friendly to Israel and more hostile to it’s main allies as a testimonial to his importance and significance of his leadership.

Whereas Netanyahu, while staying on an expected "party line" if you will, was far more rational, pragmatic, and accurate in his comments. To use an American colloquialism, Abbas got his ass kicked. As to how that translates in the ME political situation as we go on, we’ll have to see. But I thought it was a significant and notable presentation by Netanyahu.

I thought his closing comments using ancient wisdom form both Arab & Jewish wrtings was well done. It's just ended and I hope some of you guys were watching this as it happened.

I think the main weakness of Netanyahu's synopsis of the matter is already being noted---the refusal to stop almost-daily expansion of new statements as a major beginning to serious resumption of peace talks. Netenayahu was featuring what happened when Israel left Gaza, in detail, as a remidner of why that "theory" of acceding to such demands has never brought Israel safety from state-sponsored aggression (mentioned Iran repeatedly, too). I also am already seeing a couple of commentators taking a more opposite view of th two presentations than mine. :)

(link added)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44638003/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/?Gt1=43001

Palestinian leader asks UN for statehood President Abbas: 'It is near impossible to return to conducting business as usual'

This seems like a decent write-up, but is taking way too long to download for me to take excerpts from and do what ES stuff I am doing right now on this antique. :)

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Not to be dismissive of what's going on... but the issue of Israel and the turmoil in the middle east is something that always has been, is now, and in the future will continue to be violent. I've become so desensitized to what either side says about that land. Nothing really registers anymore and it's sad no one can get along in that area considering its importance to almost every religious human being on this planet.

Sorry to be so cynical... but they keep dealing out the same hand of cards.

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Not to be dismissive of what's going on... but the issue of Israel and the turmoil in the middle east is something that always has been, is now, and in the future will continue to be violent. I've become so desensitized to what either side says about that land. Nothing really registers anymore and it's sad no one can get along in that area considering its importance to almost every religious human being on this planet.

Sorry to be so cynical... but they keep dealing out the same hand of cards.

Hell, I could never give anyone a hard time over that view....In some ways I am amazed I still can be this interested in "talk" on this matter.

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Whereas Netanyahu, while staying on an expected "party line" if you will, was far more rational, pragmatic, and accurate in his comments. To use an American colloquialism, Abbas got his ass kicked. As to how that translates in the ME political situation as we go on, we’ll have to see. But I thought it was a significant and notable presentation by Netanyahu.. :)

just reading the status updates from the Palestinian girls I know....'disgusting' and 'demagogue' seems to be the words used to describe what he said.

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Netanyahu's speech is being blasted on twitter by the international community.

It is pissing off a lot of reasonable folks.

The US is going to make a lot of enemies if we veto this.

Interestingly enough Hamas is doing all they can to keep their public from celebrating the initiative or discussing about it.

I think that's a pretty clear indicator of where we should stand.

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We are all going to hear these speeches through our own preexisting filters.

My own strongly negative opinion of Netanyahu and my neutral opinion on Abbas certainly cloud my judgment. If the other guy speaking was a Hamas spokesman rather than the moderate Abbas, my feelings would be different too.

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Between this

"They talk to us about the Jewish state, but I respond to them with a final answer: We shall not recognize a Jewish state," Abbas

and the fact they will not allow Jews to have rights in their proposed state tells me all I need to know of their version of peace.

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What's interesting to me is I don't care that much for Netanyahu and am very open to many common themes of the "Palestinian side" of matters as well as criticisms of various Isreali policies and our policies in relation to all this, yet the speeches still struck me as I stated.

I am also attempting to upload and add an msnbc.com article to the OP on this steam-powered b/u PC, but as I indicated in my OP, I seem to be in the mimority on my take of the speeches. :)

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In other news....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44639799/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/

RAMALLAH, West Bank — A Palestinian man was shot dead Friday in a clash with Israeli soldiers and Jewish settlers in the West Bank.

The shooting came at a time of heightened tensions over Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' bid of U.N. recognition for a state of Palestine .

The death was the type of incident that both Palestinians and Israelis had feared within the volatile diplomatic context, worried that it would touch off more widespread violence.

Friday's incident, witnessed by an AP reporter, began when some 200 Jewish settlers burned and uprooted trees Friday near the village of Qusra. Villagers threw stones at the settlers. Israeli troops arrived and fired tear gas, then live rounds. Settlers also fired their weapons.

The man killed was identified as 35-year-old Issam Badran. A Palestinian medic said he was shot in the neck. Another Palestinian was wounded and taken by the Israeli military.

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Isn't one of the bones of contention that Israel only came into being by order of the UN? How, then, would a UN mandated Palestine be any different? And would Israel not be permitted to attack it and dismiss her standing as illegitimate?

So what you're saying is, the Israeli government should be supporting this bid or they might as well declare themselves illegitamate?

(on another note, I saw a poll in the J Post where 69% of Israelis said they'd be ok with it, if it passed the UN)

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?ID=238855&R=R1

---------- Post added September-23rd-2011 at 03:01 PM ----------

Between this

"They talk to us about the Jewish state, but I respond to them with a final answer: We shall not recognize a Jewish state," Abbas

and the fact they will not allow Jews to have rights in their proposed state tells me all I need to know of their version of peace.

Personally I'm not letting either speech decide for me what's right in the matter.

That said, what right's would they not be allowed?

---------- Post added September-23rd-2011 at 03:10 PM ----------

http://twitter.com/#!/kristenchick

Gaza city is pretty quiet after Abbas speech at UN. Hamas security out on streets confiscating Palestinian flags 1 hour ago

During the speech, Hamas internal security raided the gallery where ppl were watching it on a screen in the garden. Arrested the owner 1 hour ago

After, a few dozen ppl tried to gather in main square to celebrate, but Hamas security quickly told them to leave or be arrested.1 hour ago

Internal security guys peering into passing cars to check for flags. Because apparently waving a Palestinian flag is now a crime in Gaza 1 hour ago

:ols:

http://twitter.com/#!/nicolealjazeera

Hamas breaks up cafe gathering watching Abbas speech in Gaza11 minutes ago

---------- Post added September-23rd-2011 at 03:12 PM ----------

http://twitter.com/#!/kristenchick

People on the street in Gaza City say they wish they could celebrate the app. for statehood recognition like people in the West Bank. 58 minutes ago
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Personally I'm not letting either speech decide for me what's right in the matter.

That said, what right's would they not be allowed?

The freedom to live peacefully in the Palestinian state as Jews..... apartheid ain't my thing

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http://twitter.com/#!/AJELive

EU's Ashton says Quartet agreed on statement calling for direct Israeli-Palestinian talks to resume within 1 month and finish within 1 year 6 minutes ago

Keep in mind that Russia has already said it will vote for statehood.

http://twitter.com/#!/BreakingNews

UN Security Council president says body to meet Monday on Palestinian application - @AP 6 minutes ago

---------- Post added September-23rd-2011 at 04:09 PM ----------

The freedom to live peacefully in the Palestinian state as Jews..... apartheid ain't my thing

What did he say?

Apartheid is pretty much what Israel has now.

(although another nice comparison might be the way we treated Native Americans, considering their settlers taking more land and keep trying to force Palestinians out of their homes)

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What did he say?

Apartheid is pretty much what Israel has now.

(although another nice comparison might be the way we treated Native Americans, considering their settlers taking more land and keep trying to force Palestinians out of their homes)

What they said when? ;)

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/brad-wilmouth/2011/09/22/media-ignore-palestinian-talk-no-jews-allowed-palestinian-state

the status afforded Palestinians in Israel would be acceptable to me.....put it in the Charter :)

Manifest Destiny was a ***** wasn't it? :ols:

I ain't leaving for the indians or Mexicans,but I still prefer them as neighbors to the white trash :silly:

3676534574_b108817570_z.jpg?zz=1

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Between this

"They talk to us about the Jewish state, but I respond to them with a final answer: We shall not recognize a Jewish state," Abbas

and the fact they will not allow Jews to have rights in their proposed state tells me all I need to know of their version of peace.

And the fact that you only complain about one side selectively granting rights to only one religion, tells me all I need to know about yours.

And funny, but I thought that the Palestenians already HAD recognized Israel. In fact, I seem to remember Arrafat doing it.

---------- Post added September-23rd-2011 at 05:22 PM ----------

So what you're saying is, the Israeli government should be supporting this bid or they might as well declare themselves illegitamate?

(on another note, I saw a poll in the J Post where 69% of Israelis said they'd be ok with it, if it passed the UN)

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?ID=238855&R=R1

---------- Post added September-23rd-2011 at 03:01 PM ----------

Personally I'm not letting either speech decide for me what's right in the matter.

That said, what right's would they not be allowed?

---------- Post added September-23rd-2011 at 03:10 PM ----------

http://twitter.com/#!/kristenchick

:ols:

http://twitter.com/#!/nicolealjazeera

---------- Post added September-23rd-2011 at 03:12 PM ----------

http://twitter.com/#!/kristenchick

WTF? Hamas ticked because Abbas might look good, here?

(And, if so, how does that alter the desirability of things?

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Larry I clearly stated I would be satisfied with the exact same rights afforded Palestinians in Israel....equality is usually a theme of yours,no need to abandon it now.:pfft:

ONLY one party is petitioning for a state,I should not be focused on them and if they are worthy?

You neglect the Jewish part of the recognition statement,which seems relevant since they are asking for a Palestinian state.

They don't want a Palestinian state?

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You neglect the Jewish part of the recognition statement,which seems relevant since they are asking for a Palestinian state.

They don't want a Palestinian state?

Sure they do. Netanyahu's idea of a Palestinian state: the Gaza Strip, plus 61.4 square meters of rock on the Syrian border, surrounded by 100 foot walls and patrolled by Israeli soldiers. :)

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In that spirit....Hamas's ideal Jewish state is located in Montana :silly:

Are we gonna devolve the thread into this kind of nonsense?

Who cares about Hamas, they don't even support this bid for state recognition. Let's ignore this tit-for-tat garbage of who is right.

I think a very telling sign is that most other countries support the recognition (in some manner) of Palestine. Whereas countries walk out on Iran's speeches, they are receptive to the Palestine cause. To me, that at least shows that this can potentially help foster a more equal negotiation.

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