AsburySkinsFan Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Right.I've heard this so many times it's not even funny. As if the trials and appeal processes that put them away forever as opposed to their death penalty appeals actually make that much of a difference in costs... both processes are long drawn out expensive legal affairs. Lifers don't quit appealing either. Now have to factor in salaries for guards for however many years this scumbag breathes. 3 meals a day for every single one of them. Medical treatment that we won't give to a homeless person, education if he wants it, wattages to run a lifetime of light bulbs if he wants to (can) read, he gets paid for a 'job".. and i don't care if it's 20 cents a day. Give it to a homeless shelter instead. Give his meals to a food bank. every single penny he will cost for however long he lives.. somehow don't add up to a lenghty legal process that happens anyway, and some window cleaner. (after that, we don't pay for anythinjg but a concrete box and a couple guys to dig a hole. Either that or he goes to his family and the funeral is their problem.) I've heard this stat before. I don't believe it. ~Bang It's the price we pay for a civilized society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Right.I've heard this stat before. I don't believe it. ~Bang I tend to agree. Not that there might not be a difference but I would want to know the sample, the circumstances of appeals in those cases (appeals protesting innocence vs. protesting penalty) and I'd want to know how the marginal costs were calculated--do they only include death row prison guard salaries, maintenance, etc but DONT include normal prison guard costs, etc. And Asbury, I know you aren't opposed to Supermax but that's just not what happens. Most killers, many more evil than those ending in death, have a gay old time (comparatively) in prison. And if you tried to Supermax every psychopathic killer, you WOULD see appeals there on 'cruelty' and you would start to see people chipping away at life sentences (this is just an unavoidable fact of human nature.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 It's the price we pay for a civilized society. See, I disagree. In the case of this dog in Texas, he paid the price society set for dragging a man to death with his truck. And I don't see us as any less civilized for it. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Most killers, many more evil than those ending in death, have a gay old time (comparatively) in prison. this is based on some in depth statistical analysis, I'm sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 wouldn't the world be better off w/o this? http://www.mansondirect.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskins Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 There is another thing to consider wrt th DP. It is a deterrent as well as a punishment served (or so I would expect). If this scum did what he was convicted of then do you all think he deserved to be executed? If Davis did what he was convicted of, then do you think he deserved to be executed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 wouldn't the world be better off w/o this?http://www.mansondirect.com/ The world would be better off without a lot of things, but humans are not the givers of final justice that right alone belongs to God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botched Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 This guy killed somebody in one of the most heinous ways imaginable. He should be grateful that he got to meet his end by a needle in the arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 There is another thing to consider wrt th DP. It is a deterrent as well as a punishment served (or so I would expect).If this scum did what he was convicted of then do you all think he deserved to be executed? If Davis did what he was convicted of, then do you think he deserved to be executed? I have a weird emotional reaction to the DP... I would not hold it against one of the friends or family of the victim to extra-judicially kill Brewer. But I find the idea of vengeance through the state to be somewhat distasteful. That is a cost of the DP for me. None of that means he doesn't "deserve" death, or that he should or shouldn't be killed. But my point is that there is a lot to the DP beyond whether someone deserves death or not.... like whether the state deserves to kill citizens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 The world would be better off without a lot of things, but humans are not the givers of final justice that right alone belongs to God. Death is not final is it? I'll leave their eternity in His hands, and send them to Him. The God I know approved of capital punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Death is not final is it? I'll leave their eternity in His hands, and send them to Him. So why not just kill everyone with that type of thinking, using that logic what's so wrong with abortion? The God I know approved of capital punishment. Your use of the past tense is duly noted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticksboi05 Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 This guy killed somebody in one of the most heinous ways imaginable.He should be grateful that he got to meet his end by a needle in the arm. Seriously, gas chamber would've been more appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 So why not just kill everyone with that type of thinking, using that logic what's so wrong with abortion?Your use of the past tense is duly noted. Because life has value unless you forfeit your right to it by your actions it. Does God change his mind? Does the New Covenant remove the right of govt to use capital punishment? Was the thief on the cross wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 But my point is that there is a lot to the DP beyond whether someone deserves death or not.... like whether the state deserves to kill citizens. Yep. And whether the state can be trusted to get it right and do is fairly. And whether the revenge killing of citizens diminishes us all. And so on. Whether the scumbag deserves death in a karmic sense is all people want to talk about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Because life has value unless you forfeit your right to it by your actions it. No...all life has value, and God's love for all and want for them to repent and turn to him even while they see God as their enemy proves that their life has value to God, they still bear his image. Does God change his mind? Does the New Covenant remove the right of govt to use capital punishment? Was the thief on the cross wrong? No the New Covenant (which is more accurately the fulfillment of the original covenant) does not remove it, but it does strongly suggest that we aren't supposed to seek it, instead we are supposed to seek the offender out in missional love....not to be read as missionary love... What's more is the "eye for an eye" was not a mandated form of vengeance upon the offender, instead it was a limitation of vengeance, it is not that the victim MUST take the eye, but instead that they may ONLY take the eye, they are thus free to choose any lesser form of punishment. Today it is read by those proponents of capital punishment as if "eye for an eye" was the mandated punishment, which couldn't be more wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 I love me some missionaries Giving the lost a expiration date might speed up the process....whole bunch of them start talking to God as the execution date approaches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimmySmith Posted September 23, 2011 Author Share Posted September 23, 2011 Yep. And whether the state can be trusted to get it right and do is fairly. And whether the revenge killing of citizens diminishes us all. And so on.Which is the point the AntiDP activists are missing. They run to Troy Davis and proclaim the flaws in his case, when they should be flocking to Brewer and appealing to collective sense of humanity. Most of the lawmakers are lawyers and you will never sell them on the idea that the judicial system is flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 I love me some missionariesGiving the lost a expiration date might speed up the process....whole bunch of them start talking to God as the execution date approaches Using that logic the Crusader "conversion at the end of the sword" mentality is perfectly legitimate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Using that logic the Crusader "conversion at the end of the sword" mentality is perfectly legitimate. Nah, free will isn't effected by a expiration date......a point of a sword on the other hand..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Which is the point the AntiDP activists are missing. They run to Troy Davis and proclaim the flaws in his case, when they should be flocking to Brewer and appealing to collective sense of humanity. Most of the lawmakers are lawyers and you will never sell them on the idea that the judicial system is flawed. Quite the contrary. Every lawyer knows that the system is flawed. It is the best system we have, but injustices and mistakes happen all the time. However, every politician also knows that being pro Death Penalty is much safer politically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimmySmith Posted September 23, 2011 Author Share Posted September 23, 2011 Quite the contrary. Every lawyer knows that the system is flawed. It is the best system we have, but injustices and mistakes happen all the time. I did not express myself properly on that one. What I meant to say was that doing away with the death penalty based on the presumption that our legal system is flawed is not a good message for lawmakers to send. And yes the existence of the DP also happens to work very well for both sides from a political standpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 I did not express myself properly on that one. What I meant to say was that doing away with the death penalty based on the presumption that our legal system is flawed is not a good message for lawmakers to send. So, better to live in silence with a flawed system rather than to speak out about it and make sure that no one else is unjustly executed by it? And yes the existence of the DP also happens to work very well for both sides from a political standpoint. Very much so, which is the problem, because once again they politicize these issues and it keeps anything from actually getting done; the Right has to show how big their testicles are so they act tough by killing people. The Left blames the Right for being monsters and gets votes by default. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Which is the point the AntiDP activists are missing. They run to Troy Davis and proclaim the flaws in his case, when they should be flocking to Brewer and appealing to collective sense of humanity. Do you think that approach would work with anyone? Would it change your mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsluggo Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 I have a weird emotional reaction to the DP...I would not hold it against one of the friends or family of the victim to extra-judicially kill Brewer. But I find the idea of vengeance through the state to be somewhat distasteful. That is a cost of the DP for me. None of that means he doesn't "deserve" death, or that he should or shouldn't be killed. But my point is that there is a lot to the DP beyond whether someone deserves death or not.... like whether the state deserves to kill citizens. THis fairly well captures my view on the matter as well. .... and i was dragged kicking and screaming to this view point by the calm consitent patient logic from my wife over the course of a looooong time. but in the end i think emotions like thirst vengeance are very human and very understandable... but i want my governemnt to be above that fray. The image of justice wearing a blindfold is similar to me. I want my justice system to be cool and unswayed by emotions, and to be responsible for protection of society, for administering punishment, but NEVER vengeance. Sometimes police and/or soldiers have to kill to protect us all, and that is regrettable but perfectly understandable and acceptable because it is neccessary. A prisoner in captivity is not a similar situation, to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Is it vengeance to ensure they pay for a willfully taken life with their own?....or Justice? Simply removing them as a threat seems inadequate to me. The possible innocence and cost factors hold more sway to me than the vengeance angle,but even then the notion a murderer lives instead of the victim seems unjust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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