Jump to content
Washington Football Team Logo
Extremeskins

Daily Tech: Top Poker Site, Poker Celebreties Caught in $444 Million Ponzi Scheme


KAOSkins

Recommended Posts

http://www.dailytech.com/Top+Poker+Site+Poker+Celebrities+Caught+in+444M+USD+Ponzi+Scheme/article22798.htm

The U.S. Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York on Tuesday filed charges against executives of online poker powerhouses Full Tilt Poker, Absolute Poker, and PokerStars -- as well poker celebrities Howard Lederer and Christopher Ferguson -- on money laundering and other charges related to Ponzi schemes that defrauded players of $444M USD. Board members and owners of the businesses were paid in the scheme were also charged.
- continued at link

I know we have some playa's here, anyone get screwed? I've always been too concerned that something just like this would happen to ever put any real money online like that. You're giving your money to professional gamblers on nothing but their word, right? I think this also strengthens the case for making it legal somehow so it can be monitored a little closer (course that didn't help with pro's on the Street). It's kind of legalizing MJ IMO, it's something that people can and will do, despite the government's stance on it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I did not have any money on FTP at the time the DOJ seized the domain name and halted all activity from the US.

I did have money on Pokerstars and was paid back, as PS is true to their word about player funds being sperate.

FTP, was obviously not truthful about player funds being segregated and Howard Lederer, Chirs "Jesus" Ferguson, possibly Phil Ivey (that remains to be seen, but he was the face of FTP) are in some serious ****.

---------- Post added September-21st-2011 at 12:17 PM ----------

I believe the DOJ indicated there were 19 Owners of FTP, and provided information on what they believed the distributions over time to be. Purely speculating from this info and what we know about people possibly involved with FTP, one can attempt to guess at the ownership structure of FTP. This is purely a guess and ownership percentages are a guesses as well:

GUESTIMATE - FTP OWNERSHIP

Distributions 443 million

Board of Directors

Own % Distributions Millions

1 Lederer 9.5% 42.1 million

2 Bitar 9.3% 41.0

3 Furst 2.5% 11.1

4 Ferguson 19.3% 85.5

Subtotal 40.6% 179.6 million

Possible Other Owners?

5 Ivey? 9.0% 39.9 million

6 Phil G? 9.0% 39.9

7 Bloch? 9.0% 39.9

8 Juanda? 9.0% 39.9

9 Seidel? 9.0% 39.9

10 A. Cunn? 9.0% 39.9

11 Harman? 1.0% 4.4

12 Lingren? 1.0% 4.4

13 P. Ant.? 0.5% 2.2

14 Hanson? 0.5% 2.2

15 ? 0.5% 2.2

16 ? 0.5% 2.2

17 ? 0.5% 2.2

18 ? 0.5% 2.2

19 ? 0.5% 2.2

Matesow Sponsored Pro

Durrr Sponsored Pro

Totals 100.0% 443.2 Million

---------- Post added September-21st-2011 at 12:20 PM ----------

Tom "Durrrrrr" Dwan on Fox Business talking about FTP

http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/1174043454001/online-poker-scam-leaves-players-out-millions/?playlist_id=87247

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Online poker has been a suckers game for quite sometime

Im a pretty decent holdem player but anytime you benifit from more money going in the pot is a disaster

And that was the entire business model for those sites, of course they were scams

In a 6 man game can not tell you how many hands in 15 minutes I'd see multiple players holding pocket pairs over 10's

The more money in the middle, the more the rake was, the more money the site made

The last time I played online I went in preflop with AA's against a guys 2-8 off suit and he sucked out with a board of 3,4,5,6, blank in that order

And swore it off for good. The hell with online poker

Hope those scam artists burn

Link to comment
Share on other sites

you're 87.756% if all the money goes in pre flop. AA does not win everytime. In the long run, you make a ton of money of this player who decides to go all in with these hands.

Of course AA's doesn't win everytime

No single hand will win every time

But you can't get much worse then this unless you went 7-2 I suppose

But the second our hands were exposed I knew before the cards came out that I lost

Because online it's not a matter of who's better or who has the better cards or better luck

Online the worst hands have better averages then the premium hands to win at times

Luck is the thing that these sites can "manipulate", truely any two cards can and online especially will win

If they didn't make more money with the more money in the hand at any given time this wouldn't happen

Its a suckers play to gamble online, imo

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I call :bsflag:

More anti-gambling crap?

Huh? You just assume that the story is a big conspiracy?

I am in favor of legalised gambling, but this kind of crap also seems inevitable. It is the nature of the gambling beast that cheating, lying and fraud will come into play.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

you're 87.756% if all the money goes in pre flop. AA does not win everytime. In the long run, you make a ton of money of this player who decides to go all in with these hands.
Who on earth is going to call any pre-flop bet with 2-8 off? Seriously, there is no reasonable explanation for this......except one.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Who on earth is going to call any pre-flop bet with 2-8 off? Seriously, there is no reasonable explanation for this......except one.

Exactly.

Lots of money involved, no oversight, the unilateral ability to manipulate the cards that appear, the anononymity of the internet as a buffer - add all that up and the pressure to cheat and skim would be irresistible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

gambling against a black box online seems way too trusting to me. if i'm going to play, i'm going to play a game where i can see the machinery at work. a live game with a deck of real cards, or software that is open-source and verified.

sure, decks can be stacked and dice can be rigged, but it'd be far more tempting and far easier to get away with a couple sneaky lines of code that improve the house odds a few percentage points, than to try to pull off elaborate sleights of hand at a live table.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Who on earth is going to call any pre-flop bet with 2-8 off? Seriously, there is no reasonable explanation for this......except one.

How much was the pot for? Lots of ppl plain just don't care and will go all in with any two cards especially at micro stakes.

Sites are independently checked by the gaming commissions that license them to make sure everything is random. People see many more hands per hour online vs. a casino and selective memory accounts for, imo, all claims that it is somehow rigged.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I played online poker for about 2 years. Im not trying to toot my own horn but I am a pretty good poker player. Ive won my way into the world series on 2 seperate occations and 1 of the wtp tourneys, and have played lots of the smaller tourney at the wsop. I cashed in a 4 of the smaller wsop tourneys but got knocked out on the first day of the main event both times and the wtp tourney. Ive made a lot of money in cash games and smaller tourneys in ac and vegas so I consider myself a pretty good player. I even started a thread when I won my way in the first time.

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?161608-I-Just-Won-a-Seat-to-the-WSOP!!

The thing about online poker which in my mind has always been fixed is that they suck you in. All the sites I used to play, bodog, pokerstars and full tilt, will suck you in, They will "let" you win a tourney or two when you first register your account if you know how to play. All three sites I either won a pretty big tourney or came in the top 5 and made a few thousand on each one. But then its all down hill from there. I continued to play for 2 years after winning at the beginning and then got cleaned out. I definetly gave all the money back I won online and probably more over the course of two years. Same thing happened with my dad. He won a few thousand at the beg but couldnt win **** afterwards. I mean its so obvious when you would play that its fixed. The way hands would unfold, the bad beats, it was all just to obvious and I feel like an idiot for continuing to play after I knew it was fixed. They have their computer players or bots or however they would do it, and they are the ones that would win. I hope all those jokers go down in flames. If Ivey and all the other poker pros knew that it was all just a big ponzi scheme like it was, they deserve the same punishment as Bernie Madoff and any other scum bag that has gone to prison for ponzi schemes.

My dad sent me an email about it last night. Here is a link:

justin

just what we thought, a big old ponzi scheme, rigged and rotten to the bone!

love dad.

Click the following to access the sent link:

WSJ.com - U.S. Alleges Poker Site Stacked Deck* This article will be available to non-subscribers of the Online Journal for up to seven days after it is e-mailed.

*This article can also be accessed if you copy and paste the entire address below into your web browser.

http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB10001424053111904106704576582741398633386-lMyQjAxMTAxMDIwMTEyNDEyWj.html?mod=wsj_share_email_bot

The U.S. Justice Department accused poker celebrities Howard Lederer and Christopher Ferguson among other executives of a major poker website of defrauding poker players out of more than $300 million.

The U.S. Attorney in the Southern District of New York filed a motion Tuesday to amend an earlier civil complaint to allege that Mr. Ferguson, Mr. Lederer and two other directors for the website, Full Tilt Poker, operated what the Justice Department says was a Ponzi scheme that allowed the company to pay out $444 million to themselves and other owners, which included other famous poker players.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904106704576582741398633386.html?mod=djemalertNEWS

Hope these guys get some serious time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think the mechanics of the game are what was involved in this case at all. It was flat out stealing the money in the players accounts, once they had it, and lying on their site about how the money was being handled. And suckers trusting them. Then there's the "Gambling Regulators" in wherever they were regulated not doing a proper job for whatever reasons they might have. Or do they only regulate the mechanics and not the finances?

Not that I don't find the discussion on the mechanics interesting or doubt that they did that too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pokerstars isn't getting any heat at all. It is FTP simply because they lied about players funds being segregated, in fact players funds were probably allowing these pro's to freeroll some big tournaments.

If everyone went to the bank and wanted their money, the bank doesn't have it. Just like what happened at FTP. The big problem is that FTP is not a bank, and the money should have been there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pokerstars isn't getting any heat at all. It is FTP simply because they lied about players funds being segregated, in fact players funds were probably allowing these pro's to freeroll some big tournaments.

If everyone went to the bank and wanted their money, the bank doesn't have it. Just like what happened at FTP. The big problem is that FTP is not a bank, and the money should have been there.

They didn't lie, they stole.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think the mechanics of the game are what was involved in this case at all. It was flat out stealing the money in the players accounts, once they had it, and lying on their site about how the money was being handled. And suckers trusting them. Then there's the "Gambling Regulators" in wherever they were regulated not doing a proper job for whatever reasons they might have. Or do they only regulate the mechanics and not the finances?

That's the rub. They got Capone of tax evasion because it was much easier to prove. Trying to educate a grand jury on computer code manipulation and poker variations is far more taxing than proving the simple math of a ponzi scheme. Plus Madoff has done half of the legwork for them. That is why this will be a slam dunk.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

How much was the pot for? Lots of ppl plain just don't care and will go all in with any two cards especially at micro stakes.

$1-$2 six man ring game

Bought in for 50, was up to 120 something when this occured

Opponant had little more then me

Cured me of ever wanting to gamble online again

Sites are independently checked by the gaming commissions that license them to make sure everything is random. People see many more hands per hour online vs. a casino and selective memory accounts for, imo, all claims that it is somehow rigged.

I don't buy that personally

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The thing about online poker which in my mind has always been fixed is that they suck you in. All the sites I used to play, bodog, pokerstars and full tilt, will suck you in, They will "let" you win a tourney or two when you first register your account if you know how to play. All three sites I either won a pretty big tourney or came in the top 5 and made a few thousand on each one. But then its all down hill from there.

You mean like the time I took a year and a half off from online poker, put in $300, got it up to $13k in 8 hours and then all the sudden went on a "bad luck run" where I couldn't hit anything and eventually cashed out with $800? Yeah that's the last time I played online...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Huh? You just assume that the story is a big conspiracy?

I am in favor of legalised gambling, but this kind of crap also seems inevitable. It is the nature of the gambling beast that cheating, lying and fraud will come into play.

How does the scheme even work?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This was the only known cheater, a former software programer for Absolute Poker.

Edit: Rather, this should say the most famous incident of cheating online.

He was caught thanks to poker tracking software (which I use) and all serious online players must have. It is thanks to software like this that cheaters get caught more often than not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You mean like the time I took a year and a half off from online poker, put in $300, got it up to $13k in 8 hours and then all the sudden went on a "bad luck run" where I couldn't hit anything and eventually cashed out with $800? Yeah that's the last time I played online...

Thats about as sick of a heater as I've ever heard. I'm not gonna even say what you should have done as you probably know.

---------- Post added September-21st-2011 at 04:21 PM ----------

A lot of these sites are licensed by the gaming commission of Malta, or the Isle of Man, or the Kahnawake Mohawk Nation. Not Nevada or New Jersey.

Yes. This is true. When online poker is legalized, (when not if) it will be based in Nevada most likely.

I will speak very highly of Pokerstars as they have never been accused of any cheating and paid all US players back within a few days after "black friday." FTP was sleazy and counting on people to keep depositing in order to line the pokets of its board members. When the DOJ acted they were screwed.

Pokerstars is based on the Isle of man.

How does your shuffle work? How do I know that it is fair?

PokerStars deals the cards in a fair and honest manner. Once the deck is shuffled, it is set, and the order in which the cards are dealt cannot be changed. The software that shuffles and deals the cards cannot control who wins or lose; it just deals the cards and the rest is up to the players in the game. Our software produces a shuffle that is completely random, which favors no player over any other. The methods we use ensure complete randomization of the cards, and complete unpredictability of the cards to come. You can see the description of these methods at:

/poker/room/features/security/

We arranged for the largest consulting firm specializing in software security and quality, Cigital, to review PokerStars shuffle. Their investigation found the shuffling to be fair and random. You may read about their analysis at:

http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/rng/

Should you have further questions regarding our shuffle or security of our software, feel free to ask any question you would like in an email to support@pokerstars.com. The integrity of our games is paramount to our success, and we are happy to address any concern you may have.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thats about as sick of a heater as I've ever heard. I'm not gonna even say what you should have done as you probably know.

Yep... I know, that hurt for a long time... I tried, I really tried. I called my dad and he told me to give my phone to my roommate, where he told him to beat me over the head with a baseball bat and take my PC Tower into his room. Needless to say my roommate didn't do either of those...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...