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Beck Over Grossman in a VERY, VERY Small LANDSLIDE


kleese

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Aw, I don't think Beck's ready to give up his clipboard yet. But we'll see. :cheers:

Please read this

http://www.profootballweekly.com/201...b-rex-grossman

Grossman from a scout

Positives: Has a very strong arm and a quick delivery that he can hasten in the pocket. Can fit the ball into tight windows and drill the deep out. Fires the ball downfield and can create explosive big plays. Is very confident. Gritty and meshes well with the offensive line. Carries a swagger and has a strong on-field presence. Highly competitive and wants the ball in his hands when the game is on the line. Can take hard coaching, has learned to become a better student of the game and work at his craft.

Negatives: Is short and throws wide-based, lowering his release point. Struggles to find throwing lanes in the pocket behind the Redskins' tall O-line, resulting in too many batted balls. Has small hands and consistently botches the center-snap exchange and loses the ball, as he did on Halloween to lose against Detroit. Risky decision maker with a riverboat gambler approach — has a subpar 38-39 career TD-interception ratio and is too careless with the ball. Very marginal escapability against the rush — takes a lot of hits as a result, increasing the risk of injury. Does not step into his throws, short-arms the ball and fires too much off his back foot, affecting ball placement and diminishing his accuracy. Struggles to take pace off the ball and throw with touch long and short. Very suspect durability.

Summary: The Redskins have attempted to move Grossman outside the pocket on play-action and bootleg passes to create throwing lanes and compensate for his lack of height and field vision. However, he has zero foot quickness, can be tracked down like he is stuck in mud, and his mechanics fall apart the more he is asked to move. Operates best out of the gun and needs a strong offensive line and receivers who will attack the ball in the air to function. Careless decision making, marginal accuracy and poor escapability will always be restricing. Is too short and slow-footed to stay healthy, and durability issues make him most ideally suited for a relief role. A capable backup with no upside, Grossman has proven too inconsistent and injury-prone to handle a starting job in any type of offense.

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Please read this

http://www.profootballweekly.com/201...b-rex-grossman

Grossman from a scout

Positives: Has a very strong arm and a quick delivery that he can hasten in the pocket. Can fit the ball into tight windows and drill the deep out. Fires the ball downfield and can create explosive big plays. Is very confident. Gritty and meshes well with the offensive line. Carries a swagger and has a strong on-field presence. Highly competitive and wants the ball in his hands when the game is on the line. Can take hard coaching, has learned to become a better student of the game and work at his craft.

Negatives: Is short and throws wide-based, lowering his release point. Struggles to find throwing lanes in the pocket behind the Redskins' tall O-line, resulting in too many batted balls. Has small hands and consistently botches the center-snap exchange and loses the ball, as he did on Halloween to lose against Detroit. Risky decision maker with a riverboat gambler approach — has a subpar 38-39 career TD-interception ratio and is too careless with the ball. Very marginal escapability against the rush — takes a lot of hits as a result, increasing the risk of injury. Does not step into his throws, short-arms the ball and fires too much off his back foot, affecting ball placement and diminishing his accuracy. Struggles to take pace off the ball and throw with touch long and short. Very suspect durability.

Summary: The Redskins have attempted to move Grossman outside the pocket on play-action and bootleg passes to create throwing lanes and compensate for his lack of height and field vision. However, he has zero foot quickness, can be tracked down like he is stuck in mud, and his mechanics fall apart the more he is asked to move. Operates best out of the gun and needs a strong offensive line and receivers who will attack the ball in the air to function. Careless decision making, marginal accuracy and poor escapability will always be restricing. Is too short and slow-footed to stay healthy, and durability issues make him most ideally suited for a relief role. A capable backup with no upside, Grossman has proven too inconsistent and injury-prone to handle a starting job in any type of offense.

lol. Whoever wrote that didn't take into account that's how the Shanahans run their offense. Do you think Kyle and Gary ran Matt Schaub the same way, because of the same concerns?

BTW - Rex had 7 TD 4 INT last season, so throw out the 50-50 cited. This preseason Rex has 2 TD 1 INT, and look who's 50-50 with 1 TD and 1 INT this preseason?

Rex's decision making,accuracy, and escapability were fine last season and this preseason. And he's got as much upside as the also 30-year old he's competing against this time round, with another year in the system, and a center other than Rabach to hold up the front of the pocket.

That pro-football article link didn't work for me, but based on what you pasted, looked like a bleacher report article to me.

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Please read this

http://www.profootballweekly.com/201...b-rex-grossman

Grossman from a scout

Positives: Has a very strong arm and a quick delivery that he can hasten in the pocket. Can fit the ball into tight windows and drill the deep out. Fires the ball downfield and can create explosive big plays. Is very confident. Gritty and meshes well with the offensive line. Carries a swagger and has a strong on-field presence. Highly competitive and wants the ball in his hands when the game is on the line. Can take hard coaching, has learned to become a better student of the game and work at his craft.

Negatives: Is short and throws wide-based, lowering his release point. Struggles to find throwing lanes in the pocket behind the Redskins' tall O-line, resulting in too many batted balls. Has small hands and consistently botches the center-snap exchange and loses the ball, as he did on Halloween to lose against Detroit. Risky decision maker with a riverboat gambler approach — has a subpar 38-39 career TD-interception ratio and is too careless with the ball. Very marginal escapability against the rush — takes a lot of hits as a result, increasing the risk of injury. Does not step into his throws, short-arms the ball and fires too much off his back foot, affecting ball placement and diminishing his accuracy. Struggles to take pace off the ball and throw with touch long and short. Very suspect durability.

Summary: The Redskins have attempted to move Grossman outside the pocket on play-action and bootleg passes to create throwing lanes and compensate for his lack of height and field vision. However, he has zero foot quickness, can be tracked down like he is stuck in mud, and his mechanics fall apart the more he is asked to move. Operates best out of the gun and needs a strong offensive line and receivers who will attack the ball in the air to function. Careless decision making, marginal accuracy and poor escapability will always be restricing. Is too short and slow-footed to stay healthy, and durability issues make him most ideally suited for a relief role. A capable backup with no upside, Grossman has proven too inconsistent and injury-prone to handle a starting job in any type of offense.

Yep, that pretty much sums up Rex

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And yet, last season, Rex ended up starting over McNabb while Beck never saw the field. Do you think that "scout" knows more about Rex than Mike and Kyle?

Lol, you're really a fan huh? Like I said, I think that sums up Rex perfectly from what I have seen of him through the years.

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lol. Whoever wrote that didn't take into account that's how the Shanahans run their offense. Do you think Kyle and Gary ran Matt Schaub the same way, because of the same concerns?

BTW - Rex had 7 TD 4 INT last season, so throw out the 50-50 cited. This preseason Rex has 2 TD 1 INT, and look who's 50-50 with 1 TD and 1 INT this preseason?

Rex's decision making,accuracy, and escapability were fine last season and this preseason. And he's got as much upside as the also 30-year old he's competing against this time round, with another year in the system, and a center other than Rabach to hold up the front of the pocket.

That pro-football article link didn't work for me, but based on what you pasted, looked like a bleacher report article to me.

Come on dude you're seeing what you want to see. You ask anyone who scouts footballwould give you that report. You avent notice only plays that are successful is a good pocket and a shotgun or straight dropback? No Kyle system is pass heavy form of Mike. Mike's system has won superbowls. Kyle's system hasnt. I rather have Mike's system and you should too. And Beck can run better than Rex. Beck is the QB that Mike wants and guess what? Thats the QB that you get. Sorry if you have a mancrush for Grossman but he is nothing but a backup. Why you think Bears traded for Culter right after the Superbowl they knew he was nothing but a backup.

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Lol, you're really a fan huh? Like I said, I think that sums up Rex perfectly from what I have seen of him through the years.
Yeah I'm a fan, so I remember last season. So what did you think about it? BTW - Your style typing is eerily similar to GW. Mods, am I dealing with a sock puppet here?
Come on dude you're seeing what you want to see. You ask anyone who scouts footballwould give you that report. You avent notice only plays that are successful is a good pocket and a shotgun or straight dropback? No Kyle system is pass heavy form of Mike. Mike's system has won superbowls. Kyle's system hasnt. I rather have Mike's system and you should too. And Beck can run better than Rex. Beck is the QB that Mike wants and guess what? Thats the QB that you get. Sorry if you have a mancrush for Grossman but he is nothing but a backup. Why you think Bears traded for Culter right after the Superbowl they knew he was nothing but a backup.
Funny how Mike and Kyle disagreed with your "scouts" last season. And played Rex while benching Beck.

Don't knock Kyle's system. It produced a good offense and a probowl appearance by Schaub in 09.

Ummm, the Bears didn't trade for Cutler right after the superbowl. And Cutler replaced Orton, not Grossman.

Mancrush? No, though I'm starting to wonder if you've watched the skins games this season or not. I just think Rex is a better option than Beck, though in Shanny I trust.

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Yeah I'm a fan, so I remember last season. So what did you think about it? BTW - Your style typing is eerily similar to GW. Mods, am I dealing with a sock puppet here?

Funny how Mike and Kyle disagreed with your "scouts" last season. And played Rex while benching Beck.

Don't knock Kyle's system. It produced a good offense and a probowl appearance by Schaub in 09.

Ummm, the Bears didn't trade for Cutler right after the superbowl. And Cutler replaced Orton, not Grossman.

Mancrush? No, though I'm starting to wonder if you've watched the skins games this season or not. I just think Rex is a better option than Beck, though in Shanny I trust.

Oh so Bears benched Grossman right after he took them to the Superbowl? Oh Ok i see. When did Shanny bench Beck for Grossman? I haven't seen that but I can be mistaken. Im not knocking Kyle system but I pick Mikes cause it has produce in the playoffs and Kyles haven't.

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All I know is, no matter who gets the nod at QB come week 1, ES is going to go crazy and nitpick every single mistake said QB makes, desiring the other to go in until he does. Then the cycle starts over again, lol. It doesn't matter if Beck or Grossman win us 4 games in a row to start the season, if they lose the 5th game or even put up a poor performance, they'll get murdered.

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Oh so Bears benched Grossman right after he took them to the Superbowl? Oh Ok i see. When did Shanny bench Beck for Grossman? I haven't seen that but I can be mistaken. Im not knocking Kyle system but I pick Mikes cause it has produce in the playoffs and Kyles haven't.
Sigh. The Bears made the superbowl in the 2006 season. The 2007 season was a charlie foxtrot with Grossman, Brian Griese, and Orton getting starts. The Bears traded for Cutler for the 2009 season.

Last season, the Skins acquired Beck from the Ravens, and sat him while McNabb and Grossman got playing time. Beck sat on the bench all season, while Shanny played McNabb then Grossman.

The Texans have never made the playoffs, but in 2009 lost tie-breakers to the Jets and Ravens to miss the playoffs. Kyle was one of the reasons they got close.

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At least Beck has some "unknown quantity" factor. I like Grossman, but he's not our QB of the future. Good Rex, Bad Rex will unfortunately always be his story.
I think if Beck improves at all, it'll be due to more familiarity with the system and receivers, physically... he's 30, so not our QB of the future either. Agreed on the rest.
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Beck has put up 30 pts in roughly 3+ quarters

Grossman has put up 14 pts in 5+ quarters

I like Grossman, but as a backup. He's a sitting duck in the pocket and because of that will struggle to consistently play at a high level. In addition to that he works in between the hashmarks and inside the pocket, and eventually teams will scheme for that & will limit our options on offense.

Beck may take more sacks, but some have been of a function of him rolling and waiting for something to open up. As he gains experience I think he'll start to chk down or throw some away. More importantly, his mobility and ability to throw the ball deep off the rollout will open up the playbook and keep D coordinators on their heels. Beck has proven that the game isn't too big for him.

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I think op makes a good point. Beck is basically like a rookie, except one who knows the system VERY well. If we had drafted a rookie QB, people would be calling for him to start, so why not this guy who is miles ahead of where a real rookie would be? Imagine if Beck was Jake Locker. "Look how well Locker is playing, he's just as good as Grossman! Start him!!!" Worst case scenario he gets pulled after the first half against the giants.

My heart still says Grossman though.. but I'm not rational, or the coach.

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BTW - Rex had 7 TD 4 INT last season, so throw out the 50-50 cited. This preseason Rex has 2 TD 1 INT, and look who's 50-50 with 1 TD and 1 INT this preseason?
Rex also lost 4 fumbles last season, so he had more turnovers than touchdowns. In his career he has 54 turnovers in 35 games. There is no hiding from that.

Also, Rex is lucky to only have the one INT in the preseason. I can think of at least 2 other occasions where he threw a ball into a defenders hands this preseason, and both were in the red zone.

Beck has put up 30 pts in roughly 3+ quarters

Grossman has put up 14 pts in 5+ quarters

An interesting stat, but I am afraid it does not tell us much. I do think it would be fair to say that Beck is a bit better at moving the chains, but this stat is somewhat weak evidence. Beck benefited from a few huge gains in the running game, Shayne Graham missed 2 easy field goals on Rex's watch, etc.

Beck has proven that the game isn't too big for him.

This I agree with 100%. You have to be impressed with what Beck has shown. The numbers don't lie, and he is completing 74% of his passes.

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neither of these two is the long-term QB of the future. They're both stop-gaps for two/three years. i still expect us to draft a QB and develop them for a year or two.

For me, purely on NFL experience, I prefer Grossman, but I think Mike and Kyle will go with their 'Frankenstein's monster' project; Beck.

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I think if Beck improves at all, it'll be due to more familiarity with the system and receivers, physically... he's 30, so not our QB of the future either. Agreed on the rest.

Beck is 30 with very little mileage...so if he plays well there is no reason why he can't lead this team for the next 6-7 years.

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I think I agree with Kleese. If Beck goes 3-1 (or even just looks good going 2-2) then we have something to build on. If Beck flops, we have a man who knows the system who has plenty of time to right the course.

Either way, we have a triple QB controversy. Rex, Bex, and a future draftee.

Shanny promised competition and he has delivered in spades. We have depth at QB, RB, and WR for the first time in... well, ever. Very comforting to be in this predicament going into the season and still be flying under the radar. I feel like injury can't cut us too deeply on offense.

Edit- I should say for the record that I was supremely confident that the whole Beck thing was Shanny blowing smoke and that his son would want Rex to start. I didn't think mike would challenge him on that. I suppose he has or that they both like Beck. I was positive Rex would easily be the starter. I still like him a little bit better despite agreeing with Kleese's logic.

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Too many Redskins fans believe they "know" what we have on Rex based on his time in CHI, yet when faced with Beck's statistics in MIA they complain about how inaccurate the evidence is.

Well... You can't have your cake and eat it to, Rex's time in an offensive system that has proven to be awful, 3 QB's have done better in other schemes, Orton/Rex/Cutler, and on top of that Rex had worse receivers when he was in CHI than Cutler did a couple years ago. Is nearly as irrelevant as Beck's time in MIA. What's much more relevant is his time in WSH.

Now fast forward a couple of years, and you have Rex with the Redskins. Rex comes in down the stretch of a season and out-performs at perennial pro-bowl QB, and kicks an anemic Redskins offense into gear. Yet some fans will now look back at his statistics, and say "same old Rex" because he in fact did have a lot of turnovers this year.

Neglecting multiple factors. First being that he had a 100% fumble lost ratio, if you give him McNabb's fumble lost ratio, he only loses 1 fumble. Or if you give him an average 50% fumble lost ratio, he only loses 2 fumbles on the season. Next is the interceptions, people look back and see 4 INT's in 3 games, not so hot. Again "same old Rex" probably just making horrible decisions right? Wrong. Rex had 1 interception in the closing seconds of the Cowboys game, 2 interceptions on miscue's with Mike Sellers, whether it was Mike's fault or Rex's I don't know but neither is a bad decision it's just a mis-communication on someone's part. His final interception is to Moss single covered in the end-zone on a post route, the ball is placed poorly but Moss doesn't do anything to adjust to it. None of these are bad football decisions.

Since then Rex has come in and out-performed Beck in the pre-season as well. I'll admit Beck fits the scheme better, but I don't think it trumps Rex's ability to make some of the best throws we've seen in awhile. Rex might not get the 5-10 yd scamper but he can run the offense.

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Again "same old Rex" probably just making horrible decisions right? Wrong. Rex had 1 interception in the closing seconds of the Cowboys game, 2 interceptions on miscue's with Mike Sellers, whether it was Mike's fault or Rex's I don't know but neither is a bad decision it's just a mis-communication on someone's part. His final interception is to Moss single covered in the end-zone on a post route, the ball is placed poorly but Moss doesn't do anything to adjust to it. None of these are bad football decisions.

Since then Rex has come in and out-performed Beck in the pre-season as well. I'll admit Beck fits the scheme better, but I don't think it trumps Rex's ability to make some of the best throws we've seen in awhile. Rex might not get the 5-10 yd scamper but he can run the offense.

This is why (as I said in my last post) I was dead-sure Rex would be the man and that he's good enough. I am just starting to accept that Beck is the Shannies' guy. I agree with you that it should be Rex and that he might be the guy over a draftee. However, if the Shans are set on Beck, we might as well start him week one and find out.

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Yes, a "small landslide" is similar to a tiny giant or an extremely tall midget. Maybe a soaking wet desert.

This is a very tight race.

But the choice is easy.

Great OP. I like the logic.

Look, here's the deal. Beck is a virtual 30 year old rookie. And he's going to make rookie mistakes, and he's going to have to be brought along slowly. I think IF the Shanahan's think that he is the answer not just for this year, but for 2-3 years down the road, then you go with Beck, and live with some of the "rookie" type mistakes.

Now, if you're convinced that you're going to draft a "QB of the future" in next years draft, then it really doesn't matter who you play. I might still tend towards Beck because Grossman is proven to be erratic. But at that point, it's really a 50-50 pick-em.

My vote is Beck. I think you go with him and see what you've got. And I say you don't pull him for Grossman almost no matter what. Give him the year. Worst thing that can happen is you're drafting high next year.

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This is why (as I said in my last post) I was dead-sure Rex would be the man and that he's good enough. I am just starting to accept that Beck is the Shannies' guy. I agree with you that it should be Rex and that he might be the guy over a draftee. However, if the Shans are set on Beck, we might as well start him week one and find out.

I'm perfectly fine with either, but I don't think they'll be able to pass on Rex.

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How has Grossman put up 14 in 5 games? He had all the scoring in the Pittsburgh game and a TD in the bmore game. Beck doesn't have 30 points to his credit

Grossman

1st half v Pitt- 7 pts (2 missed fgs to his credit)

3rd quarter v Colts- 0 pts

4 Drives v Bmore- 7 pts (other 1st half tds were defensive and on the Beck drive)

Beck

1st half v Colts- 16 pts

4 drives v Bmore- 14 pts (Hightower run and TD to Austin)

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Yes, a "small landslide" is similar to a tiny giant or an extremely tall midget. Maybe a soaking wet desert.

So please, let me explain.

I knew about Beck's career numbers before our game in Baltimore the other night, but it never really hit me until I saw it flashed on the screen....he has four starts IN HIS CAREER. Those starts came as a rookie playing for a team that wound up 1-15.

In all reality, we know very little about John Beck. He really hasn't gotten a legitimate chance to prove himself on gamedays.

Now, perhaps there is a very good reason he hasn't gotten that chance. Perhaps the coaches in Miami, Baltimore, and Washington didn't give him that chance because he hadn't earned it. Maybe they simply didn't like what they saw in practice, pre-season, etc.

We know quite a bit about Rex Grossman. We know he is wildly inconsistent. We also know that he knows this offense very well and has looked rather relaxed and poised running it here in DC.

So far in pre-season, I'd say their on-field battle is pretty much a dead heat, with Rex probably looking a tad more sharp and in control.

But I'm not sure that really matters. The Redskins aren't primed to win a Super Bowl in 2011. We have some holes in other areas besides QB that will prevent us from doing that.

I do think it's possible that Grossman has hit his early 30's, that he's found a very good system for his skill set, and that he has matured to the point where he might be ready to take a step into a realm of a very effective NFL QB. But deep down, I think we know what we have. We know enough about Rex.

We know almost nothing about Beck. And because he is competing against Rex Grossman and not Joe Flacco or Matt Ryan, I think it's time to find out.

The Redskins finally have the luxury this season of rolling the dice on some things. We are no longer an old team desperately trying to squeeze into the post-season as our stars fade into the end of their careers. There is no desperation in 2011. There appears to be a very defined path for this team centered around competition between rookies and second/third year players and a under-the-radar free agents who have yet to hit 30. This season should be one worth building on.

So before we just go ahead and with Rex and allow him to keep the seat warm for someone else in a year or two, let's first give Beck his chance. A true, legitimate chance. We won't be able to cite age or experience if he fails...he is 30 now and has been in the league since 2007. We won't be able to cite lack of comfort in a system...he's been here for well over a year learning what the Shannys do. And we won't be able to cite a complete lack of talent/help around him. His line and weapons on offense may not be juggernauts, but they aren't jokes either. He will have enough help for us to know if he is any good.

This should be John Beck's big shot. I would give him a minimum of four games (unless he is so utterly putrid we have no choice) to show us what he's got. That's two home games, two road games. All four teams are beatable, but only Arizona would be a game where you'd think we'd be favored. It's a good test for Beck. He isn't facing the 70's Steelers or the sister of the poor.

On the field, one thing that I do think will help Beck's cause is that he moves better than Rex. Our OL is improved, but I still think we'll have some issues with pressure up the middle and picking up blitzes. Beck rolls better and has a bit more ability to run for yards is the defense overpursues.

If week one was the Super Bowl and I had to pick one QB to win it for us, I'd pick Rex. I'm more comfortable with Rex. I don't think Rex will completely screw us in any given game-- not at this point in his career. Beck might. He might be horrid. He might make us all long for Shane Matthews by week three. I have no idea. But he's done enough this pre-season to warrant the chance.

This is a really, really good situation for a guy like Beck to be in. And a good situation for the Redskins as well. If he sucks, we yank him, go to Rex for the remainder of the season and make QB priority #1 heading into 2012. But the upside is great... if Beck is good, then maybe we do a lot better than we thought we'd do this year...maybe we're closer to serious contention than we thought and maybe our off-season plan changes a bit. If he's really good, then we might have our QB for the next 5-6 years.

This is a very tight race.

But the choice is easy.

I read your long post and I think that you make no sense with that reasoning. Beck had chances in Miami to beat out Chad Henne but couldn't. He had no chance in Baltimore with Flacco there. When He came here Shanahan wanted him to groom and found out what he already knew. So if Beck starts week 1 then he earned it and not because know one knows what type of QB he is. Either way we are in a good situation.

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