Two things about our quarterbacks, including one point of worry on Rex.

[Oldfan]

Good post by ASF, though I prefer Beck. I wonder about ASF's comments about Rex's pocket presence. I've never heard Rex complemented on that before, I recall pocket presence being more as a rip on him. I personally haven't studied Rex like mad but what makes me buy into his detractors in this issue specifically is that the dude statistically hasn't built a strong resume in terms of evading sacks and fumbles. Some of the fumbles I've seen, involved Rex being oblivious to pressure coming from the blind side and in turn he got the ball knocked out of his hand. Though granted it hasn't been an issue in the preseason. If he recall he fumbled 4 times last year in spot duty. Unless, ASF means staying tall in the pocket and not bucking to pressure, I'd agree with that.

Edit: I also recall by ASF's posted stats on Grossman that his QB rating sinks like a rock when his team is tied or behind. Usually that's when the other team is bringing on the pressure

There are lots of thing to question in ASF's post, IMO. Darrellgreenie does a good job of pointing out some of the flaws in Post 218.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

[ASF] Long passes are easier to catch when thrown on an arc, because they allow the receiver time to adjust to the ball. (Moss TD against Ravens.)

Likewise with Becks throw to Armstrong.

Good observation. I'm rewatching the Ravens game, and that pass by Beck has exactly the wobble-drop I'm talking about. The ball drops sharply in the last 5+ yards into Armstrong's hands, very catchable. It pulls Armstrong to the sideline, but I'm not going to complain about a 34-yard completion / 29 yards in air. Beck had a little pressure in his face and threw with a very high release point, without being able to step through his throw. It almost seemed like the pressure forced the sort of mechanics that create catchable deep passes. I'll need to watch more to be sure, but I think when Beck has room to step through a deep throw (his other two), his prototypical pass will have higher spin and lower arc, traveling faster and resulting in a more difficult catch for the receiver.

Edit: Next play, play-action, rolling right. Sets up, loads of room in front of him. First problem is that Davis, running deep left, is not open. DB at 13-yard line has inside position and is one step ahead of Davis. This doesn't matter, because at 7-yard line the ball is about 10 yards high, over their heads. Ball hits sideline, 2 yards inside end zone. Ball travels 39 yards beyond line of scrimmage in air, and is a tight spiral on descent. Angle of ball is about 48 degrees off the horizontal, which is tough to time correctly even if the receiver is open, and tough for for the receiver to catch. The ball should not have been thrown (Davis not open), though some people have said that Beck was supposed to throw that pass no matter what. If that's true, then that should tell you that Beck is resistant enough to throwing deep passes that he needs to be forced to do so for performance evaluation reasons.

It's the sort of junk deep pass we used to see from Campbell. For me it negates the good of the Armstrong pass, and causes me to question whether Beck's accurate range extends beyond 30 yards in the air past the line of scrimmage. We still haven't seen such an accurate pass from Beck, and both times he threw a pass longer than 30 yards, the receiver was well covered.

Edit #2: The Armstrong pass was thrown from 24-yard line (6 yards behind line of scrimmage) and was caught at the Ravens 42-yard line, 29 yards in air beyond line of scrimmage, 35 total yards in air. If this were a perfect parabola, the highest point should be 17.5 yards into flight, which would be the Redskins 41.5 yard line. Instead, the ball's peak height is at the 45 yard line, 3.5 yards further. So, the descent occurs in only the last 13 yards of the 35-yard flight. It goes up for 22 yards, down for 13 yards. The ball wobbles due to lack of spin, slows down because of drag, and creates a perfect "in the basket" catch. That's how to throw a catchable deep pass.

Edit #3: I don't actually know (or care) who has the stronger arm between Beck and Grossman. That's a really tough thing to assess, because arm strength can create both forward motion and spin, and spin increases both distance and speed. Watching these plays, it occurs to me that Beck can't throw much beyond 30 yards without resorting to spin to get his distance, while Grossman puts all of his strength into forward motion, with relatively low spin. If I am correct, Beck's deep ball (~35+ yards) will arrive with higher velocity and lower arc. It may be that Beck could throw further than Grossman with this technique, and harder (higher velocity), but not necessarily with very much accuracy, and certainly not giving his receiver much chance to adjust to the ball.

In short, I believe that "everyone is right" in this argument. Beck throws with higher velocity due to spin, but generally a flatter ball, which may not have much accuracy beyond 30 yards, and which definitely will be harder for his receivers to catch. If I am correct, Beck may be the velocity and distance champ (yay, Beck fans), but Grossman will always have a higher completion rate over 30 yards, given a reasonable sample size. Therefore, Grossman is the more effective deep passer.

This shouldn't be a surprise. Grossman likes to throw deep, because he knows he can complete those passes. Beck doesn't like to throw deep, because he knows he misses too often. Both quarterbacks are throwing in their comfort zones.

I do think Beck throws better checkdowns to RB, screen passes and better outs. He seems to place those balls better than Grossman does, especially for YAC. On his second possession, Grossman missed Moss on the right side, 14 yard out, with a pass that was high and to the right. I think Beck makes that pass more often than Grossman.

Grossman throws almost everything between the numbers better than Beck, most of the time. He's got the best timing and reads, and more confidence in hitting these spots with a defender in the area.

[RWJ]

Most importantly, Beck has enough wheels to keep plays alive, where Grossman does not.

[Hitman21ST]

Good observation. I'm rewatching the Ravens game, and that pass by Beck has exactly the wobble-drop I'm talking about. The ball drops sharply in the last 5+ yards into Armstrong's hands, very catchable. It pulls Armstrong to the sideline, but I'm not going to complain about a 34-yard completion / 29 yards in air. Beck had a little pressure in his face and threw with a very high release point, without being able to step through his throw. It almost seemed like the pressure forced the sort of mechanics that create catchable deep passes. I'll need to watch more to be sure, but I think when Beck has room to step through a deep throw (his other two), his prototypical pass will have higher spin and lower arc, traveling faster and resulting in a more difficult catch for the receiver.

Looking at the pass that was intercepted, it looked like it was very catchable, but Stallworth just didn't make any effort to catch it. I might be wrong though, but that's what I saw.

[Skinsinparadise]

There are lots of thing to question in ASF's post, IMO. Darrellgreenie does a good job of pointing out some of the flaws in Post 218.

Agree, especially the part about Beck IMO. But Grossman's strength being his pocket presence really struck me above all -- he doesn't seem elusive in the pocket to me, and i know I am not the only one who thinks that. Sheehan from 980 who actually is cool with Grossman in general points to him looking like a statue back there. Outside of the anecdotal criticism, fumbling the ball a lot IMO isn't a sign of a QB with good pocket presence.

Edit: One thing though about Grossman he was once elusive and had decent speed but his surgeries have slowed him down.

---------- Post added August-27th-2011 at 08:17 PM ----------

http://www.profootballweekly.com/2010/12/29/scouts-notebook-redskins-qb-rex-grossman

Grossman from a scout

Positives: Has a very strong arm and a quick delivery that he can hasten in the pocket. Can fit the ball into tight windows and drill the deep out. Fires the ball downfield and can create explosive big plays. Is very confident. Gritty and meshes well with the offensive line. Carries a swagger and has a strong on-field presence. Highly competitive and wants the ball in his hands when the game is on the line. Can take hard coaching, has learned to become a better student of the game and work at his craft.

Negatives: Is short and throws wide-based, lowering his release point. Struggles to find throwing lanes in the pocket behind the Redskins' tall O-line, resulting in too many batted balls. Has small hands and consistently botches the center-snap exchange and loses the ball, as he did on Halloween to lose against Detroit. Risky decision maker with a riverboat gambler approach — has a subpar 38-39 career TD-interception ratio and is too careless with the ball. Very marginal escapability against the rush — takes a lot of hits as a result, increasing the risk of injury. Does not step into his throws, short-arms the ball and fires too much off his back foot, affecting ball placement and diminishing his accuracy. Struggles to take pace off the ball and throw with touch long and short. Very suspect durability.

Summary: The Redskins have attempted to move Grossman outside the pocket on play-action and bootleg passes to create throwing lanes and compensate for his lack of height and field vision. However, he has zero foot quickness, can be tracked down like he is stuck in mud, and his mechanics fall apart the more he is asked to move. Operates best out of the gun and needs a strong offensive line and receivers who will attack the ball in the air to function. Careless decision making, marginal accuracy and poor escapability will always be restricing. Is too short and slow-footed to stay healthy, and durability issues make him most ideally suited for a relief role. A capable backup with no upside, Grossman has proven too inconsistent and injury-prone to handle a starting job in any type of offense.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

[Referring to ASF's post about Grossman's pocket presence]

Grossman's strength being his pocket presence really struck me above all -- he doesn't seem elusive in the pocket to me, and i know I am not the only one who thinks that. Sheehan from 980 who actually is cool with Grossman in general points to him looking like a statue back there. Outside of the anecdotal criticism, fumbling the ball a lot IMO isn't a sign of a QB with good pocket presence.

Edit: One thing though about Grossman he was once elusive and had decent speed but his surgeries have slowed him down.

Two things first off. One, you should know better than to get your opinions / reinforce your opinions from talk radio. Second, foot speed has nothing to do with pocket presence. Literally zip.

Grossman is fairly attacked for INTs and totally unfairly attacked for sacks and fumbles. In his only full year as a starter (2006), Grossman's combined sack and fumble percentage was 6.0%. That's significantly better than the career numbers for these "elite" quarterbacks (quick sample):

• Brett Favre: 6.8%
  
• Tony Romo sits to pee: 6.8%
  
• Kurt Warner: 8.9%
  
• Donovan McNabb: 9.3%
  
• Aaron Rodgers: 9.4%
  
• Ben Roethlisberger: 11.4%
  
• Michael Vick: 13.6%
  

Going into the Ravens game, Beck's combined numbers for Miami (regular season) and Redskins 2011 preseason was 16.1%. That's 20 sacks and fumbles in 124 attempts.

If you want to blame Miami for being an awful team, fine, but Beck was still worst on that team (Cleo ****ing Lemon did better), and if you cut Beck's sacks and fumbles in half, he'd still be well ahead of Grossman's 2006.

That's just what you can measure. I'm going by what I am seeing watching the 2011 preseason. I see Beck missing open receivers, because he's worried about the rush. Grossman can be nailed by a blindside rusher, but the rest of the time, he's nailing receivers downfield. If he can actually see the rusher, generally he won't be taking that sack if he's throwing from the pocket.

Edit: I'm still rewatching the Ravens game. 2Q 11:59. Beck does one of his patented rollouts to the right, sets up with no one in front of him. Two Ravens then head straight toward him. Beck folds up like a lawn chair 5 seconds after the snap. Nice. How's that for elusiveness, footspeed and good decisions? (It did help his completion percentage.)

Edit #2: A few more plays. 3rd and 4, Beck skips a ball to Moss over the middle for what should be an easy completion. He's got churn around him in the pocket, but actually good enough protection. He short-arms the ball due to poor pocket presence, IMO.

Next series, 1st and 10, Grossman in pocket, Cody Redding has a beeline for Grossman from the right side. Grossman throws the ball away to avoid a certain hard sack. Then, 3rd and 10, shotgun, high snap. Grossman tips the ball catches it with one hand (pretty deft), only to see a CB #21 blitz and takes the sack. That's the only play, and it's Grossman's only sack for the night. Sometimes pocket presence is calmly dealing with bad situations and not making them worse.

Edit #3: Want to see a great read, great timing, great accuracy and a great short arc throw in action? 1st and 10, Redskins 20. Armstrong runs crossing pattern L/R. Grossman has started his throwing motion before Armstrong has even planted to make his break! The ball is in the air as Armstrong makes his break. Coverage is excellent. Armstrong has only a half step on the defender, whose helmet is right next to Armstrong's from the end zone view. Freeze-frame with Armstrong at the hash marks: he is completely invisible to Grossman at this point. Grossman is throwing through the lane set up by his blockers, to the right, over the middle. The LB in the middle sees the throw and leaps for it, 5 yards in front of Armstrong. The ball is just over his hand. Any lower and it's tipped. Armstrong's defender tries to jump the route, but can't, because the throw is perfectly timed and hits Armstrong on the hands. There is no more than 6" between Armstrong hands and the defender's hands. It's a sick, perfect throw, perfect timing, perfect read.

Art is confident that Rex Grossman is not an elite quarterback. I'm not. Only an elite quarterback can make that throw, and most of the time, they can't.

I'm not saying that Grossman is an elite quarterback - yet. I'm saying that he's playing at an elite, all-pro level in limited appearances in the preseason. I have no question that this is top 5 material in the NFL, and my only question is whether Grossman can do it consistently enough in the regular season. He throws that pass one foot to the left, it's intercepted. One foot lower, it's tipped. Half a second later, Armstrong's not even open. This is the window Rex Grossman is playing in, right now.

[Skinsinparadise]

Two things first off. One, you should know better than to get your opinions / reinforce your opinions from talk radio. Second, foot speed has nothing to do with pocket presence. Literally zip.

I never said I formed my opinion from talk radio, I just said I wasn't alone in my opinion on this and I used Sheehan within that context. I used him as an example because he's actually pro Grossman unlike his radio partner who thinks he stinks. I got to go back and watch the Jacksonville game because it drives my concern about Grossman's pocket presence. It's not that he was sacked like crazy but he had some close calls where at least on TV it looked like he had no clue the pressure was coming from the blind side, and he barely moved. With some QB's, you notice them moving away from blind side pressure even if they don't see it. I didn't I get the sense from Grossman. I brought up Sheehan because listening to his show the next day he had the same observation, so it stuck in my head.

Plus at least from an anecdotal stand point, I am familiar with the pros and cons that people say about Grossman -- very good pocket presence is not something I tend to stumble on with Grossman but maybe I missed it. There was a good analysis of Grossman I thought from a guy from football outsiders, here it is: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/extra-points/2006/fo-mailbag-rex-grossman which follows up some on your stats about Grossman being significantly better when he's nursing a lead versus being in a tie or playing behind. He goes on to talk about how his offensive coordinator has learned to design game plans, centering on using the run game to take the pressure off Rex. Here's that article: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/strategy-minicamps/2007/too-deep-zone-protecting-rex-grossman

I am not down on Rex but it seems intuitive to me that a QB who isn't mobile, tends to turn the ball over at least an average amount, and doesn't historically do well when playing from behind -- leads to questions such as: how well will he do when Hightower and the running game ISN'T working and the opponent's stack the box, how well will he do when he has to come back late in the game? How well will he do against a strong pass rush? We are judging him now on a hot period -- but he's been hot before, his rep is when he's hot he's hot and when he's cold its frigid.

I have little doubt that Shanny can make him better. And i can buy the idea that he has improved. But a lot of this discussion centers on Grossman's past. And I've read your various stats. and I am not a complete novice when it comes to stats, I sometimes do polling in my profession, and I TA'd stats eons ago in college (though forgot a lot of it). Nonetheless, I like your posts on this, they are entertaining and thorough. Ironically, your stats about Grossman with leads versus playing from behind represents my biggest concern because in a way it speaks to some of the areas where he has struggled.

Incidentally if I was really into radio talk shows as gospel, then I'd factor what Chris Russell from 980 said recently as to what he thinks partly might give Beck the edge -- he says Beck is frequently staying late and studying whereas Grossman is almost always one of the first guys to leave the park, and that Shanny is the type to notice that. I don't put much stock in that but yeah there is a lot of stuff thrown around. I hate to bash Grossman, don't mean to, I've liked watching him play too. But your posts seem to me a bit over the top in recreating Grossman's history and a bit too harsh on Beck -- that i can't resist playing devils advocate. As for Grossman, I can more easily go along with the idea that the past is the past and his problems are now being fixed.

Just my opinion of course. And I'll grant I haven't paid nearly as much time and attention into this as you and DG. I actually had serious reservations about Beck until I saw him play. I give DG the nod here for studying Beck quite some time ago and getting on board before most of us.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

I got to go back and watch the Jacksonville game because it drives my concern about Grossman's pocket presence.

Jacksonville was admittedly Grossman's worst game. It's his outlier in Grossman's games as a Redskin. However, I give that game a pass.

Redskins rushed for 79 yards in that game. Torain was 20 for 65. Even so, the Redskins never trailed in the game. Here's your evidence that Grossman can manage his way through a bad game. He had one INT in the second quarter, none in the second half. He got 14 yards and a FG on the first drive. He threw a TD on the next drive. He was then ineffective until late in the 3rd quarter, but again, avoided killer mistakes except that INT in the second quarter. He completed three passes for 34 yards on the last TD drive, late 3rd quarter / early 4th. Jacksonville tied, and the Redskins won in OT off an INT.

This was nothing like Grossman's disaster games in Chicago. With no help from the running game, he kept plugging, and the Redskins eventually won with good play by the defense. That's his bad game.

---------- Post added August-27th-2011 at 10:24 PM ----------

There was a good analysis of Grossman I thought from a guy from football outsiders, here it is: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/extra-points/2006/fo-mailbag-rex-grossman which follows up some on your stats about Grossman being significantly better when he's nursing a lead versus being in a tie or playing behind. He goes on to talk about how his offensive coordinator has learned to design game plans, centering on using the run game to take the pressure off Rex. Here's that article: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/strategy-minicamps/2007/too-deep-zone-protecting-rex-grossman

In watching Grossman's spectacular 2-minute drills, I'm getting a completely different impression. I think Grossman plays best in a fast-paced, all-out attack mode.

If I'm Kyle Shanahan, I'd be very tempted to build an offense similar to Jim Kelley's no-huddle offense in Buffalo. I would not show this in preseason at all. I'd spring it on the Giants in Game 1.

I'd go 3 WR (Moss, Gaffney, Armstrong), with Cooley and Hightower. From the first snap, I'd keep the same personnel in the game, and go on all-out attack. Grossman has shown he can snap the ball 21 seconds after the prior play is whistled dead. I'd put the team on a 25-second clock, just enough extra time to radio in the next play. All out attack. Don't stop until 50 points are on the board.

Then I'd do something different for 3 games, and then do it all over again and crush the Eagles at home, game 5.

---------- Post added August-27th-2011 at 10:49 PM ----------

More pocket presence, this time pre-snap:

2Q, 2:30, R38: 1st and 10. Grossman comes to line and turns to shout to Gaffney and Moss on the left side, cupping his hands megaphone style. Seems like a play change. Moss is split wide and is stepping in to hear, then waving his hand and nodding, "I got it." Grossman takes the snap, drops back, ignores the left side (where Moss is now double covered). Grossman throws a 14-yard strike downfield to Davis, who does a nice double move (out and up), turning Ray Lewis completely around, and is all alone inside the numbers. The ball is in the air as soon as Davis makes his second move.

This is Grossman and Moss having fun. These guys are completely in sync. Great play design by Kyle. Nice route running by Davis. And Davis manages not to drop the ball. Ravens defense is punked all around. When you're punking Ray Lewis, you're having a good game.

---------- Post added August-27th-2011 at 11:12 PM ----------

More pocket presence:

2Q, B46, 2nd and 13, shotgun.

Jaworski: "There was pressure coming on Grossman ONCE AGAIN. You'll see it right in his face, Webb coming off the corner. HERE'S the courage to stand in there, deliver the football, deliver a strike. This is what the coaches will grade VERY high for Rex Grossman. You know there's bodies coming after you, you hang in there. Take a bullet, and deliver a strike. Grossman was OUTSTANDING right there. Boy! A lot lof of blitzes in this game, Jon."

Play goes for 13-yard gain, first down. Nice blitz chip by Hightower at last second. 11 yards in air to Gaffney at the left hash, running L/R crossing pattern 2 yards short of first down. Pass leads him and carries him for a first down. Perfect strike on the hands, tight DB coverage as with Armstrong.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

More pocket presence:

2Q, B33, 1st and 10. CB blitz. Strike to Moss on left side, 6 yards + 7 YAC.

Trico: "ANOTHER corner blitz by Webb. Santana Moss, behind him. First down on the 18 yard line."

Gruden: "This is what you love to see from a veteran quarterback. Blitz him all you want. If you have a hot receiver, if you understand the concepts of your protection system, you can make plays against the blitz. That's back to back great plays by Rex Grossman.

"Let me tell you, he's one of the few guys in the NFL that's quarterbacked a team to the Super Bowl. Don't forget, in 2006, they were 13-3, and Rex had his moments. But last year in the second half against Dallas, he shredded them.

"He's always been one of those guys who's a little underappreciated. But right now, you can see that experience."

[Destino]

I'm getting sick of hearing about Beck's speed keeping plays alive because what I've seen says otherwise. He has half the pass attempts this preseason yet he has been sacked more than Grossman. Beck has absolutely NOT shown that he has pocket presence that I'd describe as good. In fact the biggest concern I have about Beck is that he can't handle pressure. This alarms be because he's not a rookie and that's not something that in my experience can be taught. His speed allows him to run for yards but he doesn't seem to escape and then run, he seems to run when the way is clear and wide outs are covered.

I'm not a Beck hater BTW so please don't imply otherwise. I think Grossman is more likely to throw interceptions I think Beck is going to take more sacks and struggle more against the better pass rushing teams.

[jivelikenice]

I'm getting sick of hearing about Beck's speed keeping plays alive because what I've seen says otherwise. He has half the pass attempts this preseason yet he has been sacked more than Grossman. Beck has absolutely NOT shown that he has pocket presence that I'd describe as good. In fact the biggest concern I have about Beck is that he can't handle pressure. This alarms be because he's not a rookie and that's not something that in my experience can be taught. His speed allows him to run for yards but he doesn't seem to escape and then run, he seems to run when the way is clear and wide outs are covered.

I'm not a Beck hater BTW so please don't imply otherwise. I think Grossman is more likely to throw interceptions I think Beck is going to take more sacks and struggle more against the better pass rushing teams.

I think the point that others and myself are trying to make is that Beck's ability aside from letting him potentially get away from pressure, more importantly opens up more of the playbook for Kyle. Rex is what he is. He's solid for short periods of time but his propensity to turn the ball over is what it is. Unfortunately he's a sitting duck in the pocket and the first pass of the game is evidence of that. He was waiting for a wr to finish his route, the blitz was on, and he just stood there and waited. He finally got hit and the ball fluttered out. He was very fortunate that pass didn't get intercepted and that's the exact type of play that can get an opponent off & running. I haven't seen Beck in that type of situation once in his limited pt.

[Oldfan]

More pocket presence:

2Q, B33, 1st and 10. CB blitz. Strike to Moss on left side, 6 yards + 7 YAC.

Trico: "ANOTHER corner blitz by Webb. Santana Moss, behind him. First down on the 18 yard line."

Gruden: "This is what you love to see from a veteran quarterback. Blitz him all you want. If you have a hot receiver, if you understand the concepts of your protection system, you can make plays against the blitz. That's back to back great plays by Rex Grossman.

"Let me tell you, he's one of the few guys in the NFL that's quarterbacked a team to the Super Bowl. Don't forget, in 2006, they were 13-3, and Rex had his moments. But last year in the second half against Dallas, he shredded them.

"He's always been one of those guys who's a little underappreciated. But right now, you can see that experience."

Good Rex, Bad Rex. Gruden spoke of it and you have seen the QBR stats from 2006 supporting the inconsistency.

What causes that inconsistency if not lack of pocket presence? Rex has to be panicking under pressure.

[Skinsinparadise]

Jacksonville was admittedly Grossman's worst game. It's his outlier in Grossman's games as a Redskin. However, I give that game a pass.

When I was watching that game, I wasn't doing so to judge him specifically. I just recall being left with that impression that he didn't have a good feel for pressure from the blind side. It's an observation, maybe right maybe wrong, but stuck with me.

Redskins rushed for 79 yards in that game. Torain was 20 for 65. Even so, the Redskins never trailed in the game. Here's your evidence that Grossman can manage his way through a bad game. He had one INT in the second quarter, none in the second half. He got 14 yards and a FG on the first drive. He threw a TD on the next drive. He was then ineffective until late in the 3rd quarter, but again, avoided killer mistakes except that INT in the second quarter. He completed three passes for 34 yards on the last TD drive, late 3rd quarter / early 4th. Jacksonville tied, and the Redskins won in OT off an INT.

I got no doubt Rex can manage his way through a bad game. But IMO just about any QB with some talent can so anything SOMETIMES. The question is can he do it as a pattern. Your own stats indicated that on the aggregate he doesn't do well in tie games and playing from behind in his career. The article i posted from football outsiders indicates the same. If anything the rap on Grossman is that SOMETIMES he looks unstoppable. But that sometimes flips. It's been said before the difference between good and mediocre is consistency.

In watching Grossman's spectacular 2-minute drills, I'm getting a completely different impression. I think Grossman plays best in a fast-paced, all-out attack mode.

Never said he played poorly under pressure this preseason. this preseason we've seen GOOD Rex. Maybe bad Rex is gone. Will see. I was just saying this isn't the first time in his career where Rex has looked good for a stretch. And its noticeable for me though during this stretch he has had a good running game -- which obviously helps a lot. The one game he didn't play well, against the Colts, was the one with the 2nd string O line and no Hightower.

[Chump Bailey]

Whomever the starter is will have to face an excellent front four of the Giants a whole 7 days after Thursday's game. Our starter will also have had less time in live action than every other starting QB in the league with their 1st team offense.

[Skinsinparadise]

Whomever the starter is will have to face an excellent front four of the Giants a whole 7 days after Thursday's game. Our starter will also have had less time in live action than every other starting QB in the league with their 1st team offense.

Both QB's are getting plenty of preseason game action. Many stating QB's are taken out after a couple of a series, sometimes just one series in particular in game 1, 2, and 4. How long do you recall Big Ben playing against the Skins? And I bet both guys play a lot more than the typical starting QB in game 4 (the typical QB will likely play just one series). Practice reps is a different story.

[ballin86]

So, watching that first half, two things struck me. First, as I said after last week's game, do not be surprised to see Beck's first pass go long. Long-ish it went. Now, it was complete, but if that pass is a little more inside, it's a TD. It's possible on a route like that the pass is taught to fade out of bounds, but it was good to see the ball travel and be complete. The second was incomplete, but also deep.

I was very surprised to see Beck miss that slant as THAT is his money throw with his arm. Beck's arm is very clearly stronger than Grossman's based on last week's intermediate throws and this week's deep balls.

On Grossman, I think the job is his. I can see the interest in Beck very clearly, but I think Grossman's experience wins out in the end, and Beck takes over at some point. Here's my concern with Grossman. Almost everything he's throwing is in front of him down the middle. That drop by Moss in the end zone was a BEAUTY, and that last toss to Moss was a classic Spurrier corner, but, generally, everything is middle.

The ONE "out" he threw to Gaffney on the Baltimore time out was an arc. Teams will flood the middle zone on Rex and make him kill them outside the hashes. I don't know that he can. He does throw a very accurate ball at times. He has that special talent of being able and WILLING to fit a ball in very tight coverage, like that pass to Armstrong.

I just worry that tonight his arm seems so soft, maybe due to smaller hands and a little wetness in the atmosphere or something, that teams will not let him carve them on the inside, which he can do all day, and make him beat them on the edges, which he may not be able to do.

In all, a satisfactory first half for the team. Two penalties gave Baltimore life or this would be a whirlwind blowout.

Beck might have a stronger arm, but Rex is much more accurate on deep balls. However, I wouldn't say that Beck has a strong arm, they are similar in arm strength. Beck is generally more accurate on short passes, but Rex gets the ball out quicker

[Lavarleap56]

Last night I happend to stumble upon the Elite 11 QB challenge on ESPN. Trent Dilfer happend to be the head coach and put 24 prospects through various drills to determine the top 11 prospects in the nation. During the show Trent had the contestants attempt various throws using only their upper torso and minimal use if legs. Filters reason for this was " sometimes you will not have the use of your legs do to circumstances in the pocket, we are going to test your true arm strength by making it difficult and only using your upper body". Now this statement doesn't prove who has the stronger arm between Rex and Beck but it does show claims that baseline arm strength starts at the feet. A Qbs feet, legs,hips, posture ect are all very important in determining overall velocity,accuracy, and trajectory and of course this is well known but it has to start from your baseline talent.

I get the discussion about arm strength for each qb is something easy to talk about but the NFL game is not about strong armed qbs anymore. The NFL has been moving to pass dominate league year after year with rule changes, players abilities, and coaching philosophies and a new breed of qbs are emerging. Anyone who watches the college game eventually new the NFL would adapt to its talent pool and the college qbs are at the forefront. Of that change. Strong arms are great but it has to come after the intelligence,accuracy, consistency in the league now.

[skinsfan242]

Beck might have a stronger arm, but Rex is much more accurate on deep balls. However, I wouldn't say that Beck has a strong arm, they are similar in arm strength. Beck is generally more accurate on short passes, but Rex gets the ball out quicker

Grossman has the stronger arm no question. Beck clearly has a quicker release and is more accurate on short to intermediate throws. Grossman has a better long ball.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

You do know. Somehow, despite seeing it, people still can't seem to process it clearly, likely because of the conditioning. The announcers were talking about the difference. The receivers talk about the difference. Everyone seems to be catching on, but a very few remaining guys. They'll get there soon if Beck starts and can rest comfortably until he does

God, I've missed you telling me what I think.

I may have missed that more than your posts where you argue both sides of an argument in order to later point out how you were right all along.

It's been far too long.

[Pelado]

[/color]More pocket presence:

2Q, B46, 2nd and 13, shotgun.

Jaworski: "There was pressure coming on Grossman ONCE AGAIN. You'll see it right in his face, Webb coming off the corner. HERE'S the courage to stand in there, deliver the football, deliver a strike. This is what the coaches will grade VERY high for Rex Grossman. You know there's bodies coming after you, you hang in there. Take a bullet, and deliver a strike. Grossman was OUTSTANDING right there. Boy! A lot lof of blitzes in this game, Jon."

Play goes for 13-yard gain, first down. Nice blitz chip by Hightower at last second. 11 yards in air to Gaffney at the left hash, running L/R crossing pattern 2 yards short of first down. Pass leads him and carries him for a first down. Perfect strike on the hands, tight DB coverage as with Armstrong.

More pocket presence:

2Q, B33, 1st and 10. CB blitz. Strike to Moss on left side, 6 yards + 7 YAC.

Trico: "ANOTHER corner blitz by Webb. Santana Moss, behind him. First down on the 18 yard line."

Gruden: "This is what you love to see from a veteran quarterback. Blitz him all you want. If you have a hot receiver, if you understand the concepts of your protection system, you can make plays against the blitz. That's back to back great plays by Rex Grossman.

"Let me tell you, he's one of the few guys in the NFL that's quarterbacked a team to the Super Bowl. Don't forget, in 2006, they were 13-3, and Rex had his moments. But last year in the second half against Dallas, he shredded them.

"He's always been one of those guys who's a little underappreciated. But right now, you can see that experience."

After witnessing that impressive 2-minute drill by Grossman, whom did the announcers say should be the starter? Grossman or Beck?

[Hdf561]

IM JUST GLAD TO HAVE POWER AND INTERNET BACK......Sorry I didnt get to continue the conversation, I was working during Hurrican Irene and just got power back today.

Just to clarify I like Rex, sure Beck has done ok, but I have watched those "deep" balls 1 million times over, and the first one was good the second one was not all the recivers fault, looking at the tape the way I see it Beck didnt have the arm to lead the reciver, on that throw, I think rex could have made that throw. I will give Beck the edge in accuracy, mobility.

However I feel Rex has the edge in system knowledge, experience, deep ball, and guts. I think the guts thing is super important, Beck seems to be very conservative and like I have said while he may have a great completion percentage, and will lead some drives down the field I do not see alot of those drives ending in a TD for us. Championship teams score TD's bottom line Look at the Packers, Colts, Saints, Patriots, Steelers etc. you gotta get 6 more than you get 3 in order to win the big ones. Now is this team anything like those teams I do not think so, but the point is Rex will take more chances into the end zone than I feel Beck will at this point,opting for the safe throw vs the one that may win the game.

Thats just my opinion, agree disagree whatever, no matter who is undercenter I do think this will be a competative team, but will not be a playoff team. and I think our "real" Qb is coming in either next years, or the following years draft.

[ballin86]

Grossman has the stronger arm no question. Beck clearly has a quicker release and is more accurate on short to intermediate throws. Grossman has a better long ball.

Not talking about quicker release...I'm saying he gets the ball out quicker as in he gets the ball out of his hands faster aka makes faster reads