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Anyone watch those televangelists on TV??


brandymac27

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I've seen this show on INSP you're talking about and it's not just a one time thing...they do this all the time on that network. Literally every single show on that network is telling people to give money in order to win "favor". They basically spin some bible passage about seeds and harvest or some crap. Sometimes it's 300 bucks, but ive seen it go into the thousands.

The worst part is they'll say something like..."I know some of you are sitting at home saying to yourself, this is my last 1000 and I cant afford to pay my bills, feed my family, etc..." then they'll tell them thats the best time to plant a seed (send them money). It's sickening.

I've also seen them give the most pathetic examples of miracles, or harvests from planting seeds. One time they were telling people that for 300 chosen people who decide to give $1000, that God would bless their "seed" and give them a "harvest" 100 times over. Then they gave an example of some woman who planted a seed of $1000 and the next week some guy came running up to her and handed her a bag with 100K in it. What a Miracle!

You should watch American Greed sometime. They have tons of examples of church groups who run ponzi schemes and eventually get caught. The only difference between them and this is that they're not using some fake financial data and instead only promising God's favor for financial reward. It's the only reason their still operating.

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I used :google:

Is this the dude...Mike Murdock?

murdock.jpg

LOL, YES!!! This is him!

A good minister is going make some really stupid business decisions. He isn't going to suck up to the big tithers. He isn't going to choose "production value" over the character of the people involved in presenting the good news. He's going to choose to sit with the one person who's alone rather mingle with the many well-adjusted people who are having a good time. He isn't going to shy away from confrontation and he won't be a bully when its time to confront.

For all these reasons and more, I think its best for a pastor to just be poor. He and his family need to be skilled scavengers, knowing how to live frugally without becoming embittered. $5 bang bang shrimp date night at Bone Fish on Wednesdays. Kids eat free on Tuesdays at Tony Roma's and there's a delicious $15 steak dinner that you and your wife can share. Groupon, Chewpon, Living Social, Baltimore Restore, various consignment shops, Aldi's, craigslist. There are a myriad ways to enjoy good things on a fraction of the cost, liberating the minister from the need for a big paycheck.

Whenever a new minister (usually a church planter) comes into our area this is the thing we spend the most time talking about. They usually feel good about scrimping now, but sometime around year 7 they start to feel entitled to make as much money as the rest of the people in their congregation. They may be right, but its a suckers entitlement. I haven't seen a minister make a big bump in pay and remain as happy as he was when he first started out.

edit: And yeah. Televangelists are the most grotesque imitations of ministers I've ever seen. Like you Brandy, I've been really impressed with the first half of a sermon I heard. Very well thought out, inspiring, and on point. And then, sometimes you can't put your finger on the moment it happened, the sermon flips to a self promotion video. Somehow, the first half of the sermon creates an imperative for you to send them as much money as you can. They use the bible to swindle people.

That's low. I understand Jesus' rage when he confronted the money changers. I don't know what I'd do if met one of these guys. I'm sure it would be embarrassing for my wife.

Well, I'm not opposed to ministers making money. They do a lot for the community and those in need. They spend a lot of their time helping others, and I have no problems with someone being compensated for that. OTOH, I can see where you're coming from. I think that no matter how good a person is, we're all capable of letting temptation get the best of us, and in this case, greed is one heck of a temptation.

I also like what you wrote in your "edit" and thought it was funny b/c that's exactly how I feel. The first part of the service is so great and inspirational, and then BAM! You sit there asking yourself, "where the heck did this come from??" LOL. And you're right, you can't really pinpoint the moment it happened. You go from feeling great to feeling absolutely disgusted!

Damn Brandy, you just now figured out that televenanglism is a scam?

Better late then never, i guess. As long as you didn't send any money...

It's amazing what these people can get away with. They represent the absolute lowest of the low.

~Bang

Well, I never really watched them before, and I never knew what they were doing was this bad. And no, I definitely didn't send any money lol.

I've seen this show on INSP you're talking about and it's not just a one time thing...they do this all the time on that network. Literally every single show on that network is telling people to give money in order to win "favor". They basically spin some bible passage about seeds and harvest or some crap. Sometimes it's 300 bucks, but ive seen it go into the thousands.

The worst part is they'll say something like..."I know some of you are sitting at home saying to yourself, this is my last 1000 and I cant afford to pay my bills, feed my family, etc..." then they'll tell them thats the best time to plant a seed (send them money). It's sickening.

I've also seen them give the most pathetic examples of miracles, or harvests from planting seeds. One time they were telling people that for 300 chosen people who decide to give $1000, that God would bless their "seed" and give them a "harvest" 100 times over. Then they gave an example of some woman who planted a seed of $1000 and the next week some guy came running up to her and handed her a bag with 100K in it. What a Miracle!

You should watch American Greed sometime. They have tons of examples of church groups who run ponzi schemes and eventually get caught. The only difference between them and this is that they're not using some fake financial data and instead only promising God's favor for financial reward. It's the only reason their still operating.

YES! You described it way better than I did. This is exactly what they do, and they do it on almost every show. It's despicable :(

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I know the Creflo Dollar house well Forehead...I live about a mile or two away. What you can't see in the first pic because the gates are open is that his initials (huge, gold, in wrought iron) are on the front. If THAT doesn't yell "personality cult" and/or "money grubbing charlatain" I don't know what would.

Last I heard Dollar was selling the house in the pics above. I can only imagine what he moved into.

Well, well, well. The CEO of INSP channel David Cerullo:

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2009/06/29/806505/ceo-of-ministry-building-4-million.html

HIs porch is bigger than most peoples houses!!!

Scum of the earth!!!!

Why do you hate job creators? Are you some kinda commie or sumthin'? :)

In all seriousness, those of you that have no problem with excessive executive compensation should have no problem with the same thing in this context. All tgevsame arguments are just as valid, i.e. market forces, higher talent level will make more $$$ allowing congregation to save more souls, etc.

There are A TON of these types of congregations here in ATL. From the folks I know that have/do attend them it's not about religion as much as it is about status, networking, keeping up with the Jones'. Conversely people that are serious about their faith run from these pimps.

Personally I'd like to see mega churches lose tax exempt status and ALL religious organizations required to open up their books like other non-profits. Of course the religious lobby is as powerful as the corporate ones, if not moreso, so I won't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

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In all seriousness, those of you that have no problem with excessive executive compensation should have no problem with the same thing in this context. All tgevsame arguments are just as valid, i.e. market forces, higher talent level will make more $$$ allowing congregation to save more souls, etc.

I have a problem with this too, but I think there's a HUGE difference in being greedy, and being greedy in the name of God preying off of deeply religious people.

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A good minister is going make some really stupid business decisions. He isn't going to suck up to the big tithers. He isn't going to choose "production value" over the character of the people involved in presenting the good news. He's going to choose to sit with the one person who's alone rather mingle with the many well-adjusted people who are having a good time. He isn't going to shy away from confrontation and he won't be a bully when its time to confront.

For all these reasons and more, I think its best for a pastor to just be poor. He and his family need to be skilled scavengers, knowing how to live frugally without becoming embittered. $5 bang bang shrimp date night at Bone Fish on Wednesdays. Kids eat free on Tuesdays at Tony Roma's and there's a delicious $15 steak dinner that you and your wife can share. Groupon, Chewpon, Living Social, Baltimore Restore, various consignment shops, Aldi's, craigslist. There are a myriad ways to enjoy good things on a fraction of the cost, liberating the minister from the need for a big paycheck.

Whenever a new minister (usually a church planter) comes into our area this is the thing we spend the most time talking about. They usually feel good about scrimping now, but sometime around year 7 they start to feel entitled to make as much money as the rest of the people in their congregation. They may be right, but its a suckers entitlement. I haven't seen a minister make a big bump in pay and remain as happy as he was when he first started out.

edit: And yeah. Televangelists are the most grotesque imitations of ministers I've ever seen. Like you Brandy, I've been really impressed with the first half of a sermon I heard. Very well thought out, inspiring, and on point. And then, sometimes you can't put your finger on the moment it happened, the sermon flips to a self promotion video. Somehow, the first half of the sermon creates an imperative for you to send them as much money as you can. They use the bible to swindle people.

That's low. I understand Jesus' rage when he confronted the money changers. I don't know what I'd do if met one of these guys. I'm sure it would be embarrassing for my wife.

Liked this post. The strategies you describe, mardi, can be recommended for many of us, not just ministers.

While I don't align myself with any organized faith/religious belief system, I work closely with many and really see more value than harm as a result of such institutions existing as a fundamental (no pun intended--not so keen on many "fundamentalist-types") part of our society at this point in time. What the future might look like is a fun area of speculation for me, but I assume nothing and have no wishful agenda for "the future" religion-wise beyond people becoming less invested in the basic behavioral traits most folks (secular folk as well) find ugly and more invested in the opposite. I think that's also obviously the main message of most organized major religions and their clergy than not, however flawed the product/delivery still may be at times.

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I know the Creflo Dollar house well Forehead...I live about a mile or two away. What you can't see in the first pic because the gates are open is that his initials (huge, gold, in wrought iron) are on the front. If THAT doesn't yell "personality cult" and/or "money grubbing charlatain" I don't know what would.

Last I heard Dollar was selling the house in the pics above. I can only imagine what he moved into.

Why do you hate job creators? Are you some kinda commie or sumthin'? :)

In all seriousness, those of you that have no problem with excessive executive compensation should have no problem with the same thing in this context. All tgevsame arguments are just as valid, i.e. market forces, higher talent level will make more $$$ allowing congregation to save more souls, etc.

There are A TON of these types of congregations here in ATL. From the folks I know that have/do attend them it's not about religion as much as it is about status, networking, keeping up with the Jones'. Conversely people that are serious about their faith run from these pimps.

Personally I'd like to see mega churches lose tax exempt status and ALL religious organizations required to open up their books like other non-profits. Of course the religious lobby is as powerful as the corporate ones, if not moreso, so I won't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

And a friend of mine that has a cousin (I know, I know) went to visit Dollar's church and asked about membership and then was told that you have to provide your W-2 as part of the application process...

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I'm glad to see that others know about Creflo. I used to see his show on UPN or the CW or one of those channels in the mornings. Funny thing was that it didn't seem to have near the production value of some of the other televangelists shows. I guess he still brings in the bank though.

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Creflo is simply a criminal in the purest sense---a pure and total con artist-- whether he is breaking a law in his "ministry"or not. Personally, since I support (contingently-based) the death penalty (among other controversial "human life/death" positions) being an acceptable social option at this stage in our species' development, I'd love to see it administered to cons who scam the financial/material life-blood out of people if ti leaves their life devastated, independent of why/how such people fall for these grifters' shticks.

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I've seen these guys occasionally...my wife and I flipped one of them on randomly one morning, and the guy was in a "trance" of some sort because God was putting a number in his brain, and it was something like $30,000, and he needed people to help get them there, or some garbage. We couldn't believe anyone would fall for this crap.

Televagilism us the easiest game in town. Take a bunch of poor people with no hope, plant the seed of religious hope in their brain, and presto, instant money. People always turn to religion in bad times and these guys prey on it.

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Creflo is simply a criminal in the purest sense---a pure and total con artist-- whether he is breaking a law in his "ministry"or not. Personally, since I support (contingently-based) the death penalty (among other controversial "human life/death" positions) being an acceptable social option at this stage in our species' development, I'd love to see it administered to cons who scam the financial/material life-blood out of people if ti leaves their life devastated, independent of why/how such people fall for these grifters' shticks.

I agree with you. I think most of them are con artists to a degree. But what really makes me wonder are the people who keep sending them their money. Someone posted in the thread that they deserve to be ripped off, but I don't necessarily know if I agree with that b/c I think that they either hold such deep convictions about their faith that they really believe these guys, or (and I may be WAY off base here) there is something psychologically wrong with them.

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While I despise clergy living high-off-the-hog, I also don't think they, and their family, should have to live at a level close to poverty. There is enough pressure on families of pastors, that financial stress needn't be added. It is a job and they should have some financial security (including retirement), although I do think a "good" pastor is not ever going to be rich. It is the responsibility of the congregation to provide for his/her salary so that they can focus on their work with the congregation/ministries.

My grandfather was a pastor and my BIL is as well. Both of them were/are excellent at their job IMO. They never bought a new car or house, went on fancy vacations, and often times had second jobs to help provide for their families. With my BIL, especially, it was a 24/7 job, in which he was expected to drop everything to answer a phone call, make hospital visits, talk to troubled teen, etc., and he normally did all of this, and more because he loved his work, but I know at times he was frustrated b/c some congregations didn't care about how stressful it was for him and his family financially.

But isn't his first job to serve the congregation and not make money? I know a person needs a certain amount to live off of, but if it got that bad, why didn't he switch careers?

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And a friend of mine that has a cousin (I know, I know) went to visit Dollar's church and asked about membership and then was told that you have to provide your W-2 as part of the application process...

I thought this was common knowledge. I've had it confirmed by more than one person I know.

It is true that this is one of the easiest games in town. I'd be lying if I said the thought hasn't crossed my mind on more than one occasion that I'm in the wrong line of work. I don't buy into the god thing anymore so hell isn't a concern--it's just my god damn concience. I can't seem to suppress it the way I should. :(

To a point I can understand the idea that people dumb enough to fall for this schtick deserve what they get. However I've seen one population firsthand that really needs and deserves protection--the elderly. Several of my elderly aunts would regularly send $$$ to Benny Hinn, Rev

Ike and even Jimmy Swaggert AFTER he got busted. This from women that had perhaps $200/month in social security income. And when I say they sent $$ I don't mean a dollar or two. They'd regularly send in 10% or often more since "$20 isn't much and you can't be cheap with god". We tried to tell them but.... Sigh :(

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I thought this was common knowledge. I've had it confirmed by more than one person I know.

It is true that this is one of the easiest games in town. I'd be lying if I said the thought hasn't crossed my mind on more than one occasion that I'm in the wrong line of work. I don't buy into the god thing anymore so hell isn't a concern--it's just my god damn concience. I can't seem to suppress it the way I should. :(

To a point I can understand the idea that people dumb enough to fall for this schtick deserve what they get. However I've seen one population firsthand that really needs and deserves protection--the elderly. Several of my elderly aunts would regularly send $$$ to Benny Hinn, Rev

Ike and even Jimmy Swaggert AFTER he got busted. This from women that had perhaps $200/month in social security income. And when I say they sent $$ I don't mean a dollar or two. They'd regularly send in 10% or often more since "$20 isn't much and you can't be cheap with god". We tried to tell them but.... Sigh :(

See, these are the kinds of people I feel bad for. There should be an advocacy group or something to look out for people like this.

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John 12:4-6 But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, “Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.” He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

Televangelists = Judas

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Yes, brandy, many such folks have either life issues and/or often mental health challenges that make them particularly vulnerable prey to certain manipulations.

And they tend to be the same vulnerable groups (such as the elderly) that are preyed upon by other con artists as well. As with many things, this is not a phenomenon that is unique to religion, though it provides unique cover, as people expect a "man of faith" not to steal, which makes it easy for those that are cynical and/or evil enough to actually do so.

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And they tend to be the same vulnerable groups (such as the elderly) that are preyed upon by other con artists as well. As with many things, this is not a phenomenon that is unique to religion, though it provides unique cover, as people expect a "man of faith" not to steal, which makes it easy for those that are cynical and/or evil enough to actually do so.

Absolutely. And I know you know I word my relevant posts in such a way as to note such things, and as I also know, we both wish the reality of how many people want to associate widely-distributed human failings with the demographics they disfavor more than focus of the nature of the failing itself wasn't so. :(

Yet I also understand that there can be particularly intense distaste for those that commit all kinds of reprehensible offenses while actively, publicly, frequently, and loudly, cloaking themselves in any religious faith or secular institution that is mainly founded on striving on do the opposite of such behaviors and boisterously celebrating their involvement within that system, whether as a leader or a follower.

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But isn't his first job to serve the congregation and not make money? I know a person needs a certain amount to live off of, but if it got that bad, why didn't he switch careers?

Yes it is a pastor's job to serve the congregation, but I don't understand why people think they shouldn't be getting a decent salary. Maybe due to priests who used to (still do?) take oaths of chastity and poverty in service to the church. Most protestant clergy don't take an oath of poverty when they enter service.

He eventually moved to another church as switching careers was not what he was interested in. He's a phenomenal pastor, IMO, and has felt called to serve in that capacity. For him, the one church that was "bad" was that they treated him poorly, not just financially, but in expectations of his duties.

Anyway, a tangent from the televangelist discussion. They all suck. Expect for BG; I have respect for him.

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Whenever I hear "TV evangelist" I always think of Jerry Falwell.

After the September 11th attacks, Falwell said gays, feminists, "pagans," and a host of liberal advocacy groups have made "God mad" and must share the blame for the terrorist attacks that took the lives of thousands of Americans at the World Trade Center in New York and at the Pentagon outside Washington. He goes on to say "God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve.” Those firemen and office workers deserved to die, Jerry?

You’d think Falwell would realize his mistake and move on but on 10/26/2001 - Jerry Falwell Ministries mailed fundraising letters to its donors claiming that Falwell was the victim of a “vicious smear campaign to discredit him.” The letter, signed by Falwell’s son, compares Falwell to biblical prophets and asks that donors send money to show their support of Falwell who was merely trying to call for “spiritual revival in America.” Falwell has gone from apologizing for his hateful remarks to trying to cash in on them.

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So, Creflo Dollar is a scammer because he's rich ?

Tell that to rich men of God like Solomon and Job, etc. I don't care if Creflo DOES have initials on his gate - Solomon may very well have had initials on his gate, as well. And judging Creflo Dollar by his last name ? Seriously ?

And, just because a preacher is on TV, he automatically gets the label "Televangelist", which automatically gets the definition of con artist, simply by the fact that he's televised ? Another flawed logic. "Televangelizing" is being generalized to the limit by stereotyping every single preacher or teacher on TV as being a money-begging whore. The over-generalization and over-stereotyping is ridiculous.

I've watched Creflo Dollar many times, and he simply is not the man being described here.

The key is that the Bible clearly states, "Do not judge a man by his appearance"

Yet, that is exactly what people are doing - judging by the appearance of a man, and not by the spirit.

Matter of fact, the Bible also says, do not judge a man, period. Because, for one thing, there may easily something in our own life, that's preventing us from properly observing the person we are "judging" ( i.e. - parable of the splinter in another man's eye, while there's a 2x4 in our own eye)

To go a step further, how many of you guys, without any foreknowledge at all, honestly would have picked the dirty, young, scrawny David, to be the next King of Israel, by observing his "appearance" ?

Or would have picked that same scrawny pig-pen kid to defeat Goliath ?

Majority of people here believe in this mystical un-proven theory such as "Karma", yet when TV preachers utilize the same concept in their teaching, simply under a different name of "reap what you sow", it's suddenly considered corrupt, greed, and con-artist-ish. Double Standard.

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