karmacop Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 The senator or the president? See above - edited my post while you were adding this one. Quick on the draw! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQCOWBOY Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 The war in Iraq and the Bush tax cuts were passed when the GOP controlled the House and the Senate, and these are the two largest contributors to the current deficit, by far. The War in Iraq and in Afghanistan was passed by both parties. What's more, that was not a line item defense budget piece but rather, a supplementary budget that required a separate vote of continuance each and every year. You know as well I as I do that the GOP did not control both houses the entirety of the War and yet the War continues. As for the largest contributors to the debt, well, that's not accurate. Also, the GOP Congress passed a debt limit increase five times under Bush. Where were you then? Why do you care about debt limits now, but not then? Pissed off about the fact that both parties were paying no attention to the fact that we were getting ourselves way too far in debt. How bout you? Were you happy to see us spending too much or were you pissed off about it too? Also, regarding your credit card analogy, you can also get another job or a higher paying job to pay off those debts. For the federal government, that would mean increasing taxes. Wrong. It would mean increasing the number of people who are actually paying taxes. The debt can be paid off with increased revenue, not just cutting. In fact, when the country is in an economic downturn, all respectable economists will tell you that decreasing government spending is a sure-fire way to prevent a recovery. We should be relying more on revenue increases and less on spending cuts, at least for the next 2-3 years until the economy recovers. Then, after tax revenue start increasing and people start getting hired, we can focus on debt reduction, which is a laudable goal but one that should be subsidiary to economic recovery. I don't agree. Corporations are already investing overseas and are trying to figure out ways in which to avoid paying taxes all together. Besides, if you have no controls on spending, history has proven that the Government will spend all the money they have plus some. This is not a revenue problem. If we increased the available revenue through tax hikes, our Government would simply spend more. We need to control spending and we need to induce job growth by allowing business to spend their own money the way they see fit. Government has no idea how to create jobs. If they did, they would have already done so by now. This method will not work. We have been on this path for almost three years now and all we've done is lose more jobs. I don't agree with what you propose as a fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Cowboy, It's still amazing to me that you seemingly are arguing in favor of this expansion of executive power esp. when just last week the Republican Party was threatening to sue Obama for abuse of power if he tried to do the very thing they want to now hand him the power to do. Again, no conservative should be happy about this proposal. It's the opposite of what Conservatives are supposed to stand for. More, if you care about the deficit and debt in any way other than as a political chip to manipulate voters, this is the exact opposite of what you want to do because it immediately disincentivises Congress from taking on entitlements or in fact any spending cuts. Seriously, if we raise the debt limit with no strings attached do you really say Republicans or Democrats cutting or revising SS or Medicare or making any real change in spending during an election year? The only hope we have for change is this ax hanging over our heads and using it as an excuse to make necessary changes. No honest person who cares about the country should approve of this suggestion. In fact, I'd argue that no honest person should approve of the current Republican tactics period. Walking out is not good governance. Abdicating responsibility in favor of doing nothing is not good governance. Acting as stubborn as a three year old spoiled brat is not good governance. Right now, the Republicans are doing less for the country than Stairs is for the Nationals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 No honest person who cares about the country should approve of this suggestion. In fact, I'd argue that no honest person should approve of the current Republican tactics period. Walking out is not good governance. Abdicating responsibility in favor of doing nothing is not good governance. Acting as stubborn as a three year old spoiled brat is not good governance. Right now, the Republicans are doing less for the country than Stairs is for the Nationals. BbbbubuBUT the Republicans are just doing what's in their best interest, why should we be pissed at them for doing what they want? It's not like they WANT to **** everyone else over, it's just that getting what they want requires ****ing everyone else over ... how can we blame them for doing what's in their own interest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aREDSKIN Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 A POV- Grover Norquist, president of Americans for Tax Reform, says he supports the goal of Minority Leader Mitch McConnell’s “contingency plan” to force President Obama to assume nearly all of the responsibility for raising the debt ceiling. “Obama is playing politics,” Norquist tells National Review Online in an interview. “Republicans need to force him to do what the established press is not doing. He says he’s got a serious proposal. Could we see it written down please?” McConnell’s plan would require the president to submit, in detail, a list of spending cuts of equal or greater value than the amount of debt increase he is requesting (about $2.5 trillion). “Obama wants to claim to the American people that he’s seriously willing to reduce spending and he’s not seriously taxing everybody and his brother,” Noquist says. “He’s lying. It’s time to end this fiction that he’s negotiating in good faith. They’ve got to force him to put in writing what the hell he thinks he’s doing.” He blames the “established press” for allowing the president to get away with putting out a horrendous budget earlier this year, and allowing Senate Democrats to get away with having gone more than 800 days without even passing a budget. Members of the media and their Democratic cohorts, he says, have convinced themselves that Republicans will eventually cave and agree to raise taxes, as they did in 1982 and 1990. But they are perilously mistaken. “Most the people around in ’82 and ’90 are dead now!” he exclaims. “That’s a long time ago. Democrats think because MSNBC says we’ve got them on the ropes, that Republicans will fold and raise taxes. They’re nuts.” continues.......http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/271731/norquist-time-force-obamas-hand-andrew-stiles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Grover Norquist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Except that's not what McConell is recommending, unless I'm badly mistaken. He's doesn't want to give Obama the unilateral power to enact a plan of spending cuts and tax increases in accordance to a debt level increase. He's just wanting to give Obama the ability to raise the debt ceiling with no spending cuts or revenue changes whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Oh Established Press.. is there no amount of bull**** they can blame you for? Run, ye paranoids! Don't believe your ears! Only believe what we tell you that you heard! ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Oh, I think the GOP would love it, if they could claim that the debt ceiling increase was 100% Obama's fault. And heck, their Kool Aid drinkers would probably believe it, too. (In fact, I can think of a few ES posters who would soon be pretending that it was true.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Oh, I think the GOP would love it, if they could claim that the debt ceiling increase was 100% Obama's fault. And heck, their Kool Aid drinkers would probably believe it, too. (In fact, I can think of a few ES posters who would soon be pretending that it was true.) Agreed...sadly agreed, and that's the end game blame Obama for more debt while the GOP pulls a Pontius Pilate with an aim to 2012. That's all they care about right now, because it surely isn't doing what's best for our country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulane Skins Fan Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Its not really more big government, the problem is it's executive power being further expanded. This is a classic way in which dictators come about... Crisis leads to consolidation of power. Mitch McConnell is officially jar jar binks, but he looks a little droopier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Except that's not what McConell is recommending, unless I'm badly mistaken.. What if ya are mistaken? Tulane...doesn't O already claim the power to raise the debt limit? Is he lying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulane Skins Fan Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 What if ya are mistaken?Tulane...doesn't O already claim the power to raise the debt limit? Is he lying? I am not sure if he has claimed that or not, my understanding is thatbno he has not claimed that, but I could be wrong. Also, that is based on a part of the constitution that I cannot responsibly speak about. But, my understanding is not that the president claims the power to raise the debt limit, but that the constitution expressly precludes congress from imposing such a limit. So, now you've given me something to noodle on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRAVEONAWARPATH Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I am not sure if he has claimed that or not, my understanding is thatbno he has not claimed that, but I could be wrong.Also, that is based on a part of the constitution that I cannot responsibly speak about. But, my understanding is not that the president claims the power to raise the debt limit, but that the constitution expressly precludes congress from imposing such a limit. So, now you've given me something to noodle on. No. As far as I know, Obama has never claimed to have that power. This was originally brought up by some law professors, Democratic senators and liberal commentators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 No. As far as I know, Obama has never claimed to have that power.This was originally brought up by some law professors, Democratic senators and liberal commentators. His treasury secretary as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Although, on that subject, . . . I would assert that if I were Obama, I'd be having the AG draw me up some legal opinions as to exactly what my powers are, if the debt ceiling doesn't get raised. IMO, if it doesn't get raised, then we're in a land where Obama basically has to claim to have authority to deal with the mess, and then he has to act, using the authority that he's chosen to claim for himself, until the problem either gets fixed, or the Sc gets around to making some kind of ruling. For example, I could see Obama claiming that when Congress passed the budget, then they authorized any and all borrowing needed to fulfill that budget. Or, I could see him claiming that since the government still has revenue coming in, just not enough to cover normal operations, that, therefore, it falls to Obama to shut down however much of the government it takes, to bring spending down to match revenues. That, in effect, Obama has the duty and the power to line-item-veto any and all federal spending, and to do whatever he thinks is the best way to balance the budget. (I could imagine him being seriously tempted to announce that his first emergency budget cutting decision will be to halt all federal spending in every state whose Senator voted against increasing the debt ceiling.) But I think that part of his job is, he has to be making plans for what he's going to do, if that contingency comes to pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebluefood Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 "Something in rotten in the State of Denmark." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 "Something in rotten in the State of Denmark." It happens when ya can a bunch of fish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 What if ya are mistaken?Tulane...doesn't O already claim the power to raise the debt limit? Is he lying? I think that is your weakest attempt at defense ever. I think even you can't quite summon the stomach to support this stance by McConnell. I mean is the goal of the Republican party really to give Obama more power??? After all, in their view he is the worst President in human history. That's who you want to entrust and expand executive powers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I think that is your weakest attempt at defense ever. I think even you can't quite summon the stomach to support this stance by McConnell. I mean is the goal of the Republican party really to give Obama more power??? After all, in their view he is the worst President in human history. That's who you want to entrust and expand executive powers? If it is linked to corresponding cuts as asserted,then the only thing they are giving up is a fight over which cuts. add Ta Da Mr. McConnell’s proposal would give Mr. Obama sweeping power to increase the government’s borrowing authority, in increments, by up to $2.4 trillion — enough, it is estimated, to cover federal obligations through next year — only if Mr. Obama specified spending cuts of equal amounts. But Congress would not have to approve the spending cuts prior to the debt-limit increase. http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/12/mcconnell-proposal-gives-obama-power-to-increase-debt-limit/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Dude, where were you 3, 4, 5, 6, years ago? Are your talking to Congress? Because they work Tuesday through Thursday and take October through January off every year. The Senate has failed to pass a budget (due by law) for 2 consecutive years. Cowards is a good word to use. Lazy and fraud / waste / abuse are others. To blame republicans is to ignore recent history on 'budgets' , to create budgets is to be responsible for them. To say tricks are being played is to also say AGAIN its 7/12 with default on 8/2. We waited this long? There was a super majority for years. Pelosi and Reid and President Obama had a mandate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulane Skins Fan Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Well, shockingly, it looks like the democrats will agree if necessary to mcconnells bill, but - wait for it - house republicans aren't backing the back up plan yet. It's official, the GOP house is a bunch of whiny stupid idiot brats... Assuming they do t even pass this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebluefood Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Well, shockingly, it looks like the democrats will agree if necessary to mcconnells bill, but - wait for it - house republicans aren't backing the back up plan yet.It's official, the GOP house is a bunch of whiny stupid idiot brats... Assuming they do t even pass this. Ideology > Nation in the eyes of the new Republican Party. If a looney libertarian like me can put aside some of my beliefs for a second for the sake of this great nation, surely people who actually have power can do the same. I guess not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Seems a reasonable compromise to me....what's the objection? Not too late to accept the Rep cuts if you object. added ...Eric seems a bit peeved over at Redstate Mitch McConnell Just Proposed the “Pontius Pilate Pass the Buck Act of 2011″ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baculus Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 This is a bad idea. I don't think Obama is somehow going to go hog wild or something, because he really can't do much other than raising the debt ceiling, but it is a bad precedent in the modern age. I don't think Obama would even want this to happen, because he wants Congress to make a deal, as do the majority of Americans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.