I'm Sick of "Debt Ceiling Politics"

[zoony]

Dick Cheney didn't seem to have a problem with debt. Of course, the Republicans were the ones raising it.

Raise the debt, start cutting the DOD and foreign aid, and start raising taxes, cutting subsides etc. It's going to take all of that to get through.

spending and debt are outstanding as long as the following criteria apply:

1. There is a white guy in the white house.

2. The money is spent to build hospitals and schools for foreign citizens who hate us.

3. The money is given to DOD contractors.

However, a black guy wanting to spend money to build infrastructure and provide schools and healthcare stateside? That's communist and un-American. Ask any tea partier.

Small government! :dunce:

...

[TimmySmith]

What TimmySmith is saying is that even if we stopped paying our debts, our rating would remain AAA. What I'm saying is he hasn't presented any evidence to back that extraordinary claim, other than vague talk about economists. Or something.

And what you have said is that you really didn't know what the bond rating is or even the significance of it. Simply put, if the rating agencies decided to lower the rating based on our unwillingness to raise the debt ceiling (which is raised to finance existing debt), then they would put everyone in an incredible untenable situation. We are the biggest money borrower in the world, we owe everyone trillions, and suddenly we could not borrow anymore because our bonds would be worthless and we would default on existing debt or we would have to borrow at a much higher rate and we would default on existing debt.

[zoony]

And what you have said is that you really didn't know what the bond rating is or even the significance of it. Simply put, if the rating agencies decided to lower the rating based on our unwillingness to raise the debt ceiling (which is raised to finance existing debt), then they would put everyone in an incredible untenable situation. We are the biggest money borrower in the world, we owe everyone trillions, and suddenly we could not borrow anymore because our bonds would be worthless and we would default on existing debt or we would have to borrow at a much higher rate and we would default on existing debt.

I fully understand what the ratings are, and I don't see any reason why they wouldn't lower our rating were we to default. :whoknows:

[PleaseBlitz]

What TimmySmith is saying is that even if we stopped paying our debts, our rating would remain AAA. What I'm saying is he hasn't presented any evidence to back that extraordinary claim, other than vague talk about economists. Or something.

Yea, im not buying that. But what do i know?

Dick Cheney didn't seem to have a problem with debt. Of course, the Republicans were the ones raising it.

Raise the debt, start cutting the DOD and foreign aid, and start raising taxes, cutting subsides etc. It's going to take all of that to get through.

I think raising taxes and drastically cutting spending is a great idea in the middle of a recession. /sarcasm.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I am ready for the day that we stop talking about political parties.

I feel like they all should be independent...on their thoughts and base.

The BS about aligning with a party is absurd.

I, (as most people are) fall between the lines.

I agree. The two of us should get together and maybe find some people who agree with us to get this idea more exposure.

[Hubbs]

Simply put, if the rating agencies decided to lower the rating based on our unwillingness to raise the debt ceiling (which is raised to finance existing debt)

Okay, I'm sorry, but I have to jump in here and point out just how untrue this is. The government takes in far more than it needs to finance existing debt. If we didn't raise the debt ceiling, we'd have to sacrifice some big things, but mathematically, there's no reason that one of those things has to be making good on current debt.

[Larry]

I agree. The two of us should get together and maybe find some people who agree with us to get this idea more exposure.

You mean, like, form a political party?

[deejaydana]

I think it's a mental shortcoming to play blame games on our debt, afterall we all own it at this point. The pols know this and cater to the segment of society who buy into their blanket statements about it and who created it and what must be done about it. This is clearly a game of chicken but come Aug 2nd, the debt ceiling will be raised yet again. And ultimately America won't fail overnight because of it but slowly our standard of living is eroding here (imho). What I want? Someone who can honestly give me some longer term planning because I'm seeing very little of it from either party.

[Bliz]

The Rs posture right now is outrageous. Do exactly what we want, zero compromise, or we crash the economy (then blame it on you for not meeting every one of our demands), and the media is pretty much giving them a free pass on it so far.

But the whole thing has an air of inevitability. It's not a question of if the Ds will blink, only when.

[Hubbs]

But the whole thing has an air of inevitability.

[deejaydana]

The Rs posture right now is outrageous. Do exactly what we want, zero compromise, or we crash the economy (then blame it on you for not meeting every one of our demands), and the media is pretty much giving them a free pass on it so far.

But the whole thing has an air of inevitability. It's not a question of if the Ds will blink, only when.

I don't read it that way in that the Rs know that it will be raised they're just trying to send a symbolic gesture. Both sides are doing much posturing and, in my estimation, little work and progress.

[Bliz]

I don't read it that way in that the Rs know that it will be raised they're just trying to send a symbolic gesture. Both sides are doing much posturing and, in my estimation, little work and progress.

That's what I meant by posture. Public posture. But Boehner and McConnell have been pretty emphatic about it so far, so maybe it's not symbolic after all

[TimmySmith]

Okay, I'm sorry, but I have to jump in here and point out just how untrue this is. The government takes in far more than it needs to finance existing debt. If we didn't raise the debt ceiling, we'd have to sacrifice some big things, but mathematically, there's no reason that one of those things has to be making good on current debt.

Come on. The interest on the debt is roughly 500 Billion a year (right now). Sure, that does not equal the entire proposed debt ceiling. But to say that the money will not be used to pay it is flat out false.

[deejaydana]

That's what I meant by posture. Public posture. But Boehner and McConnell have been pretty emphatic about it so far, so maybe it's not symbolic after all

If they can force Obama and the Dems hands to make some meaningful compromise I have to say I'm for it but once Aug 2nd rolls around the ceiling will be raised. I'd be willing to put money on it (no pun intended).

[Bombers]

Does anyone think that all this BS posturing about the debt ceiling we've undergone in the past 3 months is useful to the country? !

Yes I'm thrilled they are addressing the debt again. Politician play politics because it works!

My ideal situation is some smart/rich person tells the American people; "lets do this by Constitutional amendment, and let's raise it up to $25T... and take the issue out of politicians hands".

an extra $12T sounds like plenty of room to move around... heck we can make it $30T. At that point the game is afoot... and Congress has to completely sell America going beyond whatever that number is.

30 trillion dollar debt.

We pay now 200 billion dollars in interests. You want to pay as high as 400 billion in interests.

Thats would be over a billions dollars a day of money the Government confiscates from the people and throws away. I think the money government collects should be spent wisely and carefully on its own people.

This is why I feel the amendment should be min 0 and no greater than the amount the government collected the year before

[mjah]

Thats would be over a billions dollars a day of money the Government confiscates from the people and throws away.

Paying interest on debt we willingly took on, in the interest of serving the people during years past, is "throwing it away?"

I bet if you were the recipient of that interest instead of a citizen of a debtor nation, you'd disagree with what you've posted above. It isn't thrown away at all -- it's paid as part of a voluntary loan agreement.

That borrowing decision was ostensibly supported by the people, who continue to elect the same people (or people with a similar borrower's mentality) into power. It appears that We The People and our elected representatives have been in general agreement on massive borrowing for at least 30 years now.

It's hard to keep a straight face while describing any of that as "confiscating" and "throwing away" our money.

[deejaydana]

has anyone seen the list of austerity measures just adopted today in Greece? Yikes, they look brutal. I know we're nowhere near that level of ugliness but wow, they're taking a gigantic haircut in services AND some huge tax increases.

[Hubbs]

Come on. The interest on the debt is roughly 500 Billion a year (right now). Sure, that does not equal the entire proposed debt ceiling. But to say that the money will not be used to pay it is flat out false.

Um... you say "come on"... but then you say that the notion that we won't make interest payments is false... which was my point...

Hopefully this was just a sarcastic post that went over my head? :whoknows:

---------- Post added June-29th-2011 at 04:41 PM ----------

has anyone seen the list of austerity measures just adopted today in Greece? Yikes, they look brutal. I know we're nowhere near that level of ugliness but wow, they're taking a gigantic haircut in services AND some huge tax increases.

That's kind of what happens when you construct an entire society that happens to ignore things like "math." (And for an extra dose of irony, the ancient Greeks were perhaps the best mathematicians in history! It's an irony-palooza, I tell ya!)

[Duckus]

I agree. The two of us should get together and maybe find some people who agree with us to get this idea more exposure.

:ols:

[Bombers]

Paying interest on debt we willingly took on, in the interest of serving the people during years past, is "throwing it away?"

.

By throwing away I didn't mean the trash can.

But I meant we have a government expenditure that is not providing a service to the people now and for many years to come.Year after year.

The op wants to make it as high as 400 billion.

A waste of tax money that can be used on the poor, health care etc

Congress and President should not allow one generation take advantage of future generations!!

The people in the past did voted for a balanced budget and congress ignored them.

[SpacePenguin]

This Neo-Malthusian fake free market has been used across the world to bankrupt nations, so the multinational corporations can buy the infrastructure, borrowing against the debt that they themselves created. A very good documentary on disaster capitalism is "Shock Doctrine". Check it out sometime.

The Federal Reserve is nothing but a white collar mafia, and I'm prepared to throw away my vote on Ron Paul just to make a statement about this historic fraud. The dollar is backed by nothing, it doesn't take a economist to see that without real money, the system is unsustainable long term, even without massive amounts of existing corruption.

I'd actually like a transition to direct democracy using the internet. If people can bank safely online, they can sure as hell vote using it. Get rid of Congress altogether. Dems and Repubs have the same policies aside from a few trivial polarizing issues, like gun control and abortion. These issues are designed to divide the public, and the result is the same no matter what party wins. We're ruled by the same corporate interests regardless.

[SnyderShrugged]

This Neo-Malthusian fake free market has been used across the world to bankrupt nations, so the multinational corporations can buy the infrastructure, borrowing against the debt that they themselves created. A very good documentary on disaster capitalism is "Shock Doctrine". Check it out sometime.

The Federal Reserve is nothing but a white collar mafia, and I'm prepared to throw away my vote on Ron Paul just to make a statement about this historic fraud. The dollar is backed by nothing, it doesn't take a economist to see that without real money, the system is unsustainable long term, even without massive amounts of existing corruption.

any vote of your conscience and principle is never thrown away! I know darned well that a win for even the nomination is virtually impossible, but I am thrilled to see so many people starting to come to their senses regarding the economy, which I truly believe he has had influence on over time.

[SpacePenguin]

any vote of your conscience and principle is never thrown away! I know darned well that a win for even the nomination is virtually impossible, but I am thrilled to see so many people starting to come to their senses regarding the economy, which I truly believe he has had influence on over time.

I agree 100%. Was kind of a tounge in cheek reference to the way the mainstream media approaches Paul.

I'm actually a liberal historically, so me registering Republican for Paul is mildly amusing. I just think he's the only candidate that is remotely trustworthy. I hope to God we can somehow turn this around, or life is going to be hell for future Americans.

[Hubbs]

I agree 100%. Was kind of a tounge in cheek reference to the way the mainstream media approaches Paul.

I'm actually a liberal historically, so me registering Republican for Paul is mildly amusing. I just think he's the only candidate that is remotely trustworthy. I hope to God we can somehow turn this around, or life is going to be hell for future Americans.

Just wait until the next crash. Heard about the recent regional Fed numbers? They're actually worse than they were in the fourth quarter of 2008.

[deejaydana]

Thought I would follow up on some of the specifics on today's Greek austerity measures, (and wondering to myself if we would we riot in the streets under the same conditions/mandates? ) At least we're not at this same place (yet)...though I really don't think we're as far behind as we romance ourselves into believing.

Link >>>>> http://www.cnbc.com/id/43577308

Here are 10 of the most onerous:

Taxes will increase by 2.32 billion euros this year and 3.38 billion, 152 million and 699 million in the three subsequent years. There will be higher property taxes and an increase in the value-added tax (VAT) from 19 percent to 23 percent.

Luxury levies will be introduced on yachts, pools and cars and there will be special levies on profitable firms, high-value properties and people with high incomes.

Excise taxes on fuel, cigarettes and alcohol will rise by one-third.

Public sector wages will be cut by 15 percent.

Defense spending will be cut by 200 million euros in 2012 and 333 million each year from 2013 to 2015.

Education spending will be cut by closing or merging 1,976 schools.

Social Security will be cut by 1.09 billion euros this year, 1.28 billion in 2012, 1.03 billion in 2013, 1.01 billion in 2014 and 700 million in 2015. There also will be means testing, and the statutory retirement age will be raised to 65 from 61.

The government will privatize a number of its enterprises, including the OPAP gambling monopoly, the Hellenic Postbank, several port operations, Hellenic Telecom and will sell its stake in Athens Water, Hellenic Petroleum, PPC electric utility and lender ATEank, as well as ports, airports, motorway concessions, state land and mining rights.

Only one in 10 civil servants retiring this year will be replaced and one in five in coming years.

Health spending will be cut by 310 million euros this year and 1.81 billion euros from 2012 to 2015.