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Skinscast/HomerMcFanBoy - Pappas and Murf go head-to-head on Vince Young


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With the departure of Donovan McNabb seemingly assured, the topic Redskins fans continue to fiercely debate these days is whether or not the team should acquire Vince Young. To explore this subject, Skinscast founder John Pappas and HomerMcFanboy’s Brian Murphy go head-to-head on whether or not Washington should bring in the controversial quarterback.

The case for Vince Young

The case against Vince Young

---------- Post added May-16th-2011 at 05:22 PM ----------

I should have allowed multiple voting. The more I think about it, option 3 may be the best answer...

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Just going to throw my 2 cents onto this inferno. I agree with Murf on this one. This franchise has dug itself into the hole that it is in partially by taking chances on players who have questionable team camraderie. Not to mention Young really reminds me of Jeff "Quarterbacks dont need to be leaders" George. Add those two factors up and it is a recipe for disaster imo.

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If I didn't know better, I would say that your comment, and the fact that everybody but me voted for Murf means you all agree with him...

We still love you JJ, don't worry. Love the sinner, hate the sin and all

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I'm w/ Murf.

Pass on Young, test out Beck, get ready to draft a QB next April.

What if Beck doesn't "test out" well?

IMO we should talk to Young unless he is seeking a long-term contract with guaranteed money. However, I don't think he has any leverage so we should be able to get him for cheap.

I just don't want Shanny to give Beck the job. He will need to be the best of the QBs we have on roster. Who would push Beck more than another young QB with something to prove?

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What if Beck doesn't "test out" well?

IMO we should talk to Young unless he is seeking a long-term contract with guaranteed money. However, I don't think he has any leverage so we should be able to get him for cheap.

I just don't want Shanny to give Beck the job. He will need to be the best of the QBs we have on roster. Who would push Beck more than another young QB with something to prove?

Then we're in good position to get a top QB in next year's draft.

We've tried too many times to fix the QB position with questionable FAs and trades. It's time to draft a top QB and build the franchise the correct way.

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Ok, so here's where I take exception with the case for Young:

Best of all, Young is a winner. His 30-17 record as a starter testifies to this, and far outweigh concerns over average passer stats.

Sounds like solid reasoning. That's a 63.8% winning percentage for Vince Young. However, let's do a similar comparison for McNabb. McNabb's career winning % from 1999-2009 (his rookie year through his last year in Philly) he was 91-50-1. That's a 64.1% winning percentage for McNabb. Including back to back seasons where he went 12-4 and 13-2 as a starter (2003-2004). Now I won't dare speak for anybody else, but for me having a higher winning percentage while playing in more games means McNabb should be a better QB. Sure he's older (he was 33 when we traded for him), and he was injury prone, and he'd been in the same system with the same coaches since he was drafted.....but just look at that record, man! McNabb just wins! In fact, as a starter he's only had 2 seasons with losing records: 1999 (his rookie year) he went 2-4, and 2005 he was 4-5. Young has 30 wins in 5 seasons, an average of 6 wins per year. McNabb had 91 wins over 11 years, which averages out to just over 8 wins per year. And that's with McNabb missing 25 games due to injuries over that time span (which would have amounted, statistically, to about another 16 wins).

Oh, and McNabb had an entire offseason to work with the coaches, get the playbook, learn the system, etc. If the lockout miraculously ended tomorrow McNabb would still have had a full month head start on Young, who was cut by a team in more desperate need of a QB than us.

There are a lot of reasons to argue for Young, and some of them might be convincing. But the winning record argument doesn't hold water after last year.

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Then we're in good position to get a top QB in next year's draft.

We've tried too many times to fix the QB position with questionable FAs and trades. It's time to draft a top QB and build the franchise the correct way.

Completely agree with you in regards to building via the draft esp with the QB position. However, we might not end up with a top 5 pick which most likely means no Barkley or Luck. Also, if we do get the QB we want in the draft next season I definitely do not want him starting immediately.

Sorry to inundate with you with hypothetical scenarios but we just never know what the future holds. Young should come cheap and without us giving up any picks.

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You bring him in for one simple reason...to get a draft pick later.

We don't have a franchise QB on this team and it's obvious our intention is to go after Luck next season.

If you sign Young to a one year offer and he does well, he will pick up with another team, probably start and get a decent contract netting us a compensatory pick. If he comes in and can't beat out Beck...you cut him.

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i wasnt sold on VY til i saw his play from last year. ( i admit i havent seen much of him til that point). i thought he played very well. football outsiders agrees.

if shanny is really sold on beck, maybe you pass on VY. but if you can get him on a friendly contract, i dont see why you wouldnt try him out. the man is likely in his prime and possibly very good at the moment.

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A reason to use Young's winning percentage. These are the records of Tennessee when Young didn't lead them in passing:

2006- they were 0-2

2007- they were 1-1

2008- they were 12-3

2009- they were 1-5

2010- they were 3-6

Other than one season, they have been abyssmal without Young. The same cannot be said with Philly without McNabb who succeeded with Koy Detmer, AJ Feeley, Jeff Garcia, and Mike Vick. There was the whole Mike McMahon debacle in 2005 but he just really sucked.

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If you look at what Shanny's done this offseason, it looks like they're putting a premium on team-first guys with solid work ethics. Not sure if VY fits into that equation, but if he could get his act together, he's a special talent. There's no doubt about that. I would be interested to know what kind of a relationship he and K. Shanahan have from Texas

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Low-risk high-reward, no brainer. There's little to no reason not to bring him in, other than he might have a negative impact on say "team morale". However if he succeeds here, who knows what could happen.

Is that guy as your avatar the person from the quote you guys play sometimes on skinscast?

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i thought he played very well. football outsiders agrees.

Football outsiders is split on Young's performance.

but if you can get him on a friendly contract, i dont see why you wouldnt try him out.

I think allocating valuable resources goes beyond just money.

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Like I said in my blog post - I can only think of two veterans with "character issues" that the Redskins have rolled the dice on in the last 35 years without regretting it, and they're John Riggins and Daryl Gardener. Most recently, guys like Albert Haynesworth and Larry Johnson are players with baggage the team took a chance on. How did that go?

If I'm being perfectly blunt here, the last two Redskins quarterbacks of note were Donovan McNabb and Jason Campbell. They're both stand-up guys who are well respected in the locker room/community/etc. If this franchise found a way to screw it up with those guys, then why exactly would any reasonable human being think for a second things would work out with a basket case like Vince Young? The guy is emotionally unstable. He gets in fist fights in strip clubs. He is prone to depression to the point where folks within the Titans organization thought he might try to hurt himself. Oh, and he had such a hissy fit when his coach took him out because of an injury that he threw his pads into the stands. But other than that, I'm sure he's a gentleman and a scholar.

I understand Pappas' stance, which is essentially "this team can't go into the season with John Beck as the starter and no one else." I too think Beck blows. But I'd much rather see the team bite the bullet and ride Rex Grossman one more year rather than trying to hit a home run on such a dicey situation.

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Vince Young is an athletic quarterback with boat loads of potential and a cargo ship full of baggage.

He is mentally unstable and not a fit for the Kyle Shanahan offense.

Over the last three years, Kyle has run a 60/40 pass to run ratio. Kyle would have to change his ways in order to make a guy like Young work. He didn't change his ways for a veteran, and a well respected guy in McNabb, why would anyone believe he'd change for Young.

So coming in, we'd ask Young to throw 29+ times a game, or around there...

When Young threw over 29 times a game with the Titans he was 5-7.

He also averaged 6.4 YPA and threw for 10 TD and 17 INT over his career with 29+ passes.

He's not a guy we want throwing the football as often as the Kyle Shanahan offense dictates. So, again, if K. Shan. doesn't change his ways, Young probably won't work.

Let's also remember, he started to get good in the Titans offense last year. Looked like he finally started to click. At least up until he threw his pads into the stands. Now he's got to a learn a new offense. It took him five years to even look decent in a system he was in since a rookie. I've heard people say his work ethic stinks, I think it seems to be an accurate assessment given his inability to grasp the Titans playbook.

Now, factor in the fact that he'll have a severely shortened offseason to learn the playbook here.

Couple that again with the fact that his entire support cast in Tennessee is better than what he'll have in Washington. At receiver, the only guy with any kind of real game experience we have is Anthony Armstrong. Runningback is any combo of Torain, Williams, Davis, Helu, Royster. Our offensive line isn't very good aside from Trent Williams. He'd have a very solid TE.

Then people will throw the "Yeah, but Young was ROY!!!" out there... Yes, but he shouldn't have been.

Maurice Jones Drew (2006): 166 carries, 941 yards, 13 TD, 5.7 YPC, 46 receptions, 436 yards, 2 TD, 1 FUM, 1 LOST (2nd string RB)

Vince Young (2006): 51.5% Comp. Rate, 2199 Yards, 6.2 YPA, 12 TD, 13 INT, 66.7 Rating, 82 carries, 552 yards, 7 TD, 12 FUM, 8 LOST (Starting QB)

And now factor in the DC night life and the pressure from the DC media/fans. He couldn't survive in Tennessee with all of that, how would he survive here?

In the right situation, with the right coordinator, I think Young could be a decent to good QB. I don't think that situation is here.

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