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Offensive Turnover: Reason for hope?


Voice_of_Reason

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Ok, so I was thinking about all the things that have been posted about Shannahan and Allen not knowing what they are doing on the personnel side, and I started to think about that last Jim Zorn year of 2009, which was both embarrassing and awful.

I remember arguing at the time that just changing QBs wasn't going to be enough, this team needed an entire offensive overhaul, and that anywhere between 8-10 players needed to be replaced in the next two years.

Here's the starting roster from 2009:

LT: Chris Samuels - Retired

LG: Derrick Dockery - Benched, though I don't know if he's gone yet, but will be soon.

C: Casey Rabach - Still around

RG: Randy Thomas - Retired

RT: Stehon Heyer - Still around, but clearly a backup.

QB: Jason Campbell - Gone

RB: Clinton Portis - Gone

WR: Santana Moss - FA

WR: Antwaan Radle-E - Gone

WR: Malcolm Kelly/Devin Thomas Who Knows/Gone

TE: Chris Cooley- Starter

FB: Mike Sellers - Starter.

Of those players, only 3 are currently on the roster and projected as starters: Rabach, Cooley and Sellers. Moss might be back, but it's unclear. Rabach might/might not be a starter.

So, the 'Skins have re-vamped all but 2 or 3 positions. They still have work to do, but they have, in general, gotten younger across the board. Factor in some contributions from this years draft...

The big question is obviously who's going to play QB. But turning over this much of the roster in 2 years was a pretty big feat.

It gives me some glimmer of optimism. Not necessarily for this year, but that Shannahan and Allen clearly knew what was necessary, and clearly took action across the board. It wasn't going to happen in one year, but over 2-3 years, they are going to completely re-shape the roster.

Now, the question is, will the younger players pan out? That's something only time will tell.

Thoughts? Any optimism with just the shear change of personnel? Or is it just replacing garbage with garbage?

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Good post. While we did get younger, it'll take a couple years for the youngin's to get up to speed. Shanny and Allen have a plan, let's just hope they stick to the blueprint. Another draft like this next year, you'll start seeing the fruits of the F.O. labor. It's a pretty exciting time to be a skins fan ( at least for this one).

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Ok, so I was thinking about all the things that have been posted about Shannahan and Allen not knowing what they are doing on the personnel side, and I started to think about that last Jim Zorn year of 2009, which was both embarrassing and awful.

I remember arguing at the time that just changing QBs wasn't going to be enough, this team needed an entire offensive overhaul, and that anywhere between 8-10 players needed to be replaced in the next two years.

Here's the starting roster from 2009:

LT: Chris Samuels - Retired

LG: Derrick Dockery - Benched, though I don't know if he's gone yet, but will be soon.

C: Casey Rabach - Still around

RG: Randy Thomas - Retired

RT: Stehon Heyer - Still around, but clearly a backup.

QB: Jason Campbell - Gone

RB: Clinton Portis - Gone

WR: Santana Moss - FA

WR: Antwaan Radle-E - Gone

WR: Malcolm Kelly/Devin Thomas Who Knows/Gone

TE: Chris Cooley- Starter

FB: Mike Sellers - Starter.

Of those players, only 3 are currently on the roster and projected as starters: Rabach, Cooley and Sellers. Moss might be back, but it's unclear. Rabach might/might not be a starter.

So, the 'Skins have re-vamped all but 2 or 3 positions. They still have work to do, but they have, in general, gotten younger across the board. Factor in some contributions from this years draft...

The big question is obviously who's going to play QB. But turning over this much of the roster in 2 years was a pretty big feat.

It gives me some glimmer of optimism. Not necessarily for this year, but that Shannahan and Allen clearly knew what was necessary, and clearly took action across the board. It wasn't going to happen in one year, but over 2-3 years, they are going to completely re-shape the roster.

Now, the question is, will the younger players pan out? That's something only time will tell.

Thoughts? Any optimism with just the shear change of personnel? Or is it just replacing garbage with garbage?

I agreed with you that when Shanahan & Allen came on board there would need to be significant changes before the franchise could compete on an annual basis. Emphasizing the draft was one of those things and then getting younger was another.

Chris Samuel's was always a good contributor and we have replaced him with a franchise left tackle in Trent Williams.

Derrick Dockery was cut in the offseason

Casey Rabach - I'm not convinced he will be starting this season. I believe Kory Lichtensteiger or Montgomery will be the center as it is there natural position.

I believe Helu has a very good chance of starting and will be a very solid contributor if he isn't a starter.

Hankerson will most likely be a starter and a very good contributor this season.

All in all we are on our way back to being a consistently competitive football team.

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You would have needed a crystal ball to predict that our two best O-linemen, Samuels and Thomas, would go down in 2009 with new career-ending injuries. So far, their replacements have not been as good. Trent needs to improve (11.5 sacks in 14 games). This O-line allowed 46 sacks. That's not good.

McNabb cost us two high picks and wasn't much of an improvement over Campbell. Dockery was a scheme change casualty. So far, Lichtensteiger isn't an improvment.

Armstrong was on our practice squad when this regime took over. He's a plus.

I think it really comes down to how much the Skins have improved over the last two drafts. The jury's out.

I liked the chances for our 2008 draftees, but the only one of the ten who has shown anything is Fred Davis, who was the most criticized of Vinny's selections.

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Comparing the team then and now on offense makes me very optimistic. Especially for the depth that we added. In 2009 there were players on our roster that clearly didnt deserve to be on an NFL roster. Especially on the offensive line and at WR. Now there are legitimate and tested second options at pretty much every position going into training camp which are young and have upside. Just off the top of my head when thinking about the youth movement.

OL- Kory Lichtensteiger, Trent Williams, Selvish Capers(very quick and athletic but needed to work on strength), Will Montgomery.

WR- Anthony Armstrong, Brandon Banks, 3 rookies, and Terrence Austin (all of whom except for Hankerson are small fast recievers who were overlooked because of their size)

RB- Probably the deepest unit on the team. Ryan Torain, Keiland Williams, James Davis, Roy Helu, and Royster are all young and have great potential

FB-Darrel Young looked very good at times last season, and if nothing else is a good teams contributor

TE-Fred Davis and Logan Paulson have both shown flashes of being outstanding recieving TE's, but they are stuck behind one of the best TE's in the league in Cooley

All of those players have the potential to become starters in this league that can produce at a high level. Most of them wont, but that is ok because if the team hits on a quarter of those players then we have a decent offensive core to build around.

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Agree with above. You really need to not just look at starters, but at depth. A big issue for us in recent history, especially at OL and RB, has been staying healthy. Our starters were all actually pretty good, but when they went down to injury it was terrible.

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I agreed with you that when Shanahan & Allen came on board there would need to be significant changes before the franchise could compete on an annual basis. Emphasizing the draft was one of those things and then getting younger was another.

Chris Samuel's was always a good contributor and we have replaced him with a franchise left tackle in Trent Williams.

Derrick Dockery was cut in the offseason

Casey Rabach - I'm not convinced he will be starting this season. I believe Kory Lichtensteiger or Montgomery will be the center as it is there natural position.

I believe Helu has a very good chance of starting and will be a very solid contributor if he isn't a starter.

Hankerson will most likely be a starter and a very good contributor this season.

All in all we are on our way back to being a consistently competitive football team.

I didn't see that Dockery was cut, but I figured it was either done or a matter of time.

I'm hoping that somebody beats out Rabach for the starting center spot. But I'm not holding my breath.

Helu and Hankerson both have a chance to be very good contributors right away. If that's the case, combined with Armstrong, Torraine, Cooley and Davis, this offense could have a few different ways to pressure a defense.

I was always the one holdout that said that Samuels was a very good, but not great LT. I saw him standing with his hands on his hips staring down at the 'Skins QB lying on the ground more often that I liked. But he was a solid contributor for a decade.

Still, the elephant in the room question is the QB.

You would have needed a crystal ball to predict that our two best O-linemen, Samuels and Thomas, would go down in 2009 with new career-ending injuries. So far, their replacements have not been as good. Trent needs to improve (11.5 sacks in 14 games). This O-line allowed 46 sacks. That's not good.

McNabb cost us two high picks and wasn't much of an improvement over Campbell. Dockery was a scheme change casualty. So far, Lichtensteiger isn't an improvment.

Armstrong was on our practice squad when this regime took over. He's a plus.

I think it really comes down to how much the Skins have improved over the last two drafts. The jury's out.

I liked the chances for our 2008 draftees, but the only one of the ten who has shown anything is Fred Davis, who was the most criticized of Vinny's selections.

I kindof disagree that you couldn't see the Samuels and Thomas retirements coming. Sure, they weren't the same injuries they had had in the past, but both had missed significant time, or played poorly over the last several years due to injury. Both were getting up there in age, and for both it was a matter of time. Going into 2009 counting on the same basic line that started in 2005 was a really, really stupid personnel move by Vinny.

And Dock wasn't just a scheme change casualty. He was an ok RG, but nothing spectacular. And his false starts were killer.

Lichtensteiger has been the punching bag for a lot of folks, but he did start to play better as the season wore on. It was his first real experience as a starter, and he struggled early, then started to play better. There is hope there.

The McNabb trade was a disaster. It cost 2 draft picks, and that was unfortunate. However, I would submit that the way that the 'Skins worked this draft, they managed to make up for that transgression by picking up so many additional picks, and good picks in the first 4 rounds of the draft, that they kindof evened out. Look, every trade or personnel move isn't going to work out. They rolled the dice on McNabb, came up snake eyes, and now they have to pay for it. But they recuperated a little bit, and that was good to see.

You're right that it's going to be a while before we can tell whether the 2011 draft was good or not. Probably 2-3 years at the minimum. But my point is that I think with all of the changes, there's a little more reason for optimism than there has been the last several years.

The core of the offense, even through some of last year, was still the 2005 offensive personnel. And they peaked in 2005. So, now it's a complete change, and that gives me some hope.

Agree with above. You really need to not just look at starters, but at depth. A big issue for us in recent history, especially at OL and RB, has been staying healthy. Our starters were all actually pretty good, but when they went down to injury it was terrible.

One thing I would note is that we haven't had FA yet. So, I'm guessing they will pick up a few guys who can contribute in FA as depth.

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Sure, there's been a lot of turnover in the offense -- but still more is needed.

Biggest issues remaining;

  • A #1 WR , (I think we can find a decent tandem of #2 and #3 out of all the WRs we heve). I'm wondering if Moss is still the answer at #1
  • A Center (Rabach is in decline, and he was never that great to begin with)
  • Right Guard/Right Tackle (So many questions here, and Heyer/Hicks aren't really the answer)
  • A good pair of utility OL (We might have someone but it depends on how we settle at C, Gs, and RT)
  • but most of all.... a starting NFL-ready QB who can really keep the offense moving and successfully lead the team through those moments of adversity.

New is good, but new is untested. I'm hopeful for the direction this team is taking in developing itself, but until the Skins quickly resolve the issue at QB, it's hard to be really hopeful for dramatic successs.I'm not certain that Beck/Grossman are in the same category as Schaub was at Houston.

Time will tell, but the Skins need to find the right QB in the draft to develop into their franchise star of the future. I'm not yet convinced that a team with only a RB as its star can make it very far into the playoffs. The difference between the Lions (Billy Sims) and the Chargers (Ladainian Tomlinson) was Phil Rivers at QB.

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WR- Anthony Armstrong, Brandon Banks, 3 rookies, and Terrence Austin (all of whom except for Hankerson are small fast recievers who were overlooked because of their size)

.

I agree with pretty much your whole post....but have to point out that Niles Paul is a giant :D

Don't expect him to do much more than teams his rookie year though. Very raw.

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I was always the one holdout that said that Samuels was a very good, but not great LT. I saw him standing with his hands on his hips staring down at the 'Skins QB lying on the ground more often that I liked. But he was a solid contributor for a decade.

Funny, I've always been the voice saying how unappreciated Chris was when he was here.

How many LT's have we ever had that played his entire career for us and made it to 6 ProBowls in 10 seasons?

None

And he's just one of the problems I seen with today's fans. If we can't get behind producers like this who in the hell can we support?

Chris should be the only player who played last decade to get inducted into the ring of fame. But this isn't a Chris Samuals post so I'll stop there with him.

Oldfan is absolutely right, Trent Williams needs to improve a lot to be able to say he took over that position and for those watch can say there wasn't a significant drop off. I hope he does but I have my doubts at this point.

Now as for your topic sorry but roster changes were needed for us to have any chance at all going forward. Yes it has been nice to see the draft where instead of just getting a lot of picks we actually got a lot of players who experts think are pretty good. How will that work out for us? It's anyone's guess but I'd say I was very cautiously optimistic about the guys we picked up the last two drafts. It's not always about just having talented players. We've had that in the past. It's about building a team and that's part of the problem still today.

Last year at this time we were all in support of McNabb. Now 12 months later we can't seem to want to dump his ass quick enough. We can't seem to get any support behind John Beck or Rex Grossman from the fans. The Free Agent Grass is always greener smokers all think that the answer is Vince Young. When Fisher can't control that man and Shanny couldn't control Hanyesworth the very idea that Young comes here is frightening. And then you have the "Luck" talk and this seasons college football hasn't even started yet. It's maddness.

I still can't figure out which is the more crazy accepted thought right now. The fans wanting to tank the season for Andrew Luck or the fans actually thinking that in today's watered down NFL that any team would throw away a good quality QB? I think the fans mentally cracked from all the losing since Snyder took over sometimes.

In the end while it's a good thing to see the personnel turnover happen I think that was to be expected. But turnover isn't enough. Teams are built and created. They aren't just patched together because the current trend says 3-4 is better then 4-3 and forced down the throats of the team when they clearly don't work and at the sacrifice of turning a top 10 unit into the second worst in the league. They aren't turned around in a single season but they aren't fixed either by ignoring the two most important parts of the team like we did this draft when we stupidly didn't take any QB to groom or add a single offensive linemen. For every personal team move we've made in the past 18 months I think we've made an almost equal mistake. The net gain is slightly ahead overall but I don't see too much to be optimistic about.

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