Forehead Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 so 2 different religious questions have to be in the same thread to appease 1, gotcha. and something tells me you don't know how bandwidth is wasted....just a hunch Don't worry about Bill, he's a good guy that just has a few anger issues. His lacrosse team probably lost or something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec138 Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 It seems cosmically unfair that God, with his infinite wisdom, compassion and love for all his children, can forgive every sin no matter how terrible (or nearly every sin, depending on your denomination) EXCEPT for the sin of being a dumb, limited, **** for brains human who tried to live a good life but didn't know which religion was the right one. Not to mention the unjust eternal punishment for finite transgressions. At that point it's no longer a punishment and falls under torture :\ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 It seems cosmically unfair that God, with his infinite wisdom, compassion and love of all his children, can forgive every sin no matter how terrible (or nearly every sin, depending on your denomination) EXCEPT for the sin of being a dumb, limited, **** for brains human who tried to live a good life but didn't know which religion was the right one. Our faith teaches that God reveals Himself to all so that none have an excuse. You call it cosmically unfair, and I'd argue that you're right, forgiveness given through grace is entirely unfair considering that Yahweh is a just God, meaning we each deserve judgment and the very fact that grace is made available is an act of unfairness. If you were drowning in the ocean and someone tossed you a lifeline at what point does the person who refuses to grab it become responsible for drowning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elessar78 Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Now you're asking the question that recently got Rob Bell into trouble, as many in the Christian faith allow room in their faith for God to "redeem" those who have never heard the Gospel. Second, this is the whole reason for Christian missions, and why missionaries are in every country around the world. I get all that and I would've been one of those heathens (or is it pagans) had missionaries not visited my forefather's fair island. But even for Christians that holds true. Places like Ireland become an extreme case where on what side of the street you were born determined whether you followed the Pope or not. Even in my own life, my father is Protestant and my mother Catholic. We grew up attending Protestant services but when I went out on my own I believed that Catholicism was more for me. Catholicism is more ritual based and Protestantism scripture based, when you get down to it I don't really see much of a difference between the two. Like I said, to me, it's procedural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweedr01 Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Don't worry about Bill, he's a good guy that just has a few anger issues. His lacrosse team probably lost or something lol, is that even a real sport, ranks right up there with soccer, i keed i keed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elessar78 Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Bad move, Tweedr. You'll unleash the wrath of bill and his paranoia of a "Soccer Mafia" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bliz Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Our faith teaches that God reveals Himself to all so that none have an excuse. You call it cosmically unfair, and I'd argue that you're right, forgiveness given through grace is entirely unfair considering that Yahweh is a just God, meaning we each deserve judgment and the very fact that grace is made available is an act of unfairness. If you were drowning in the ocean and someone tossed you a lifeline at what point does the person who refuses to grab it become responsible for drowning? It's not JUST that grace is made available. It's that judgment is made unavailable and grace is the only option, and if you don't get grace you get an eternity in hell. What if you were tossed 25 lifelines, but only 1 of them was actually attached to anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadySkinsFan Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 I was raised Methodist and tried the Catholic Church when I was dating a Catholic. I'm an atheist and have been for some decades. I just don't believe. I like the rituals of church sometimes but I don't believe it. And after the last round of trying to please someone by going to church, I'll never do it again as I think that is hypocritical on my part to attend something I don't believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweedr01 Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Bad move, Tweedr. You'll unleash the wrath of bill and his paranoia of a "Soccer Mafia" :paranoid: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 It's not JUST that grace is made available. It's that judgment is made unavailable and grace is the only option, and if you don't get grace you get an eternity in hell. But grace is made available to you, I'm not a Calvinist that says only the elect have justifying grace given to them that is crazy IMO and not in keeping with the scriptures (obviously they disagree ), as a Wesleyan I understand that God's grace is made available to all people, it up to us to receive it and trust it for our salvation. What if you were tossed 25 lifelines, but only 1 of them was actually attached to anything? I've been tossed those same 25 lifelines, and I have found that Christianity is the faith that rings most true, and if I'm wrong about that, then I'm willing to go to hell for it, as I refuse to serve a God that is not the God of love made known in Jesus Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 I was raised Catholic, but lucky for me, they threw me out of school and my parents became Quakers and allowed me to figure it out myself. I could still see myself going to Meeting, just for the community and meditation part of it. The only way to get me into a Church, is somebody very, very close to me has to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busch1724 Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 If I got paid enough money I'd switch. Mostly all have similar principles and destinations in the afterlife, just a different road to take. I'm pretty open to all religions. I just find it mind boggling how we rate one religion better than others when for the most part they have the same corer belief systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 If I got paid enough money I'd switch. Mostly all have similar principles and destinations in the afterlife, just a different road to take. I'm pretty open to all religions. I just find it mind boggling how we rate one religion better than others when for the most part they have the same corer belief systems. This just makes you sound like you don't know much about the core beliefs of various religions. I'm not trying to be snarky, but seriously they aren't the same. You might be able to make an argument regarding the Abrahamic faiths (Judaism, Islam, Christianity) although their followers will probably disagree with you, but to try and say that the Abrahamic faiths have any real relationship to Shinto, Hinduism/Buddhism, Taoism, or even Wiccan(ism?) is a real stretch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 This seems like a werid question. Most people who "swtich" their religions do so out of a profound moment of deep and unprecedented self reflection generally triggered by a period of crisis. Shouldn't the question be: "Could you ever see yourself dramatically changing your lifestyle after a profound moment of deep and unprecedented self reflection, one that was likely triggered by a period of crisis?" Paul was not about to change his religion ten minutes before being struck blind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted April 20, 2011 Author Share Posted April 20, 2011 This seems like a werid question.Most people who "swtich" their religions do so out of a profound moment of deep and unprecedented self reflection generally triggered by a period of crisis. Shouldn't the question be: "Could you ever see yourself dramatically changing your lifestyle after a profound moment of deep and unprecedented self reflection' date=' one that was likely triggered by a period of crisis?" Paul was not about to change his religion ten minutes before being struck blind.[/quote'] No, I think I asked the right question. I know plenty of Muslims who married non-Muslims and their spouses converted. Catholicism was mentioned in this thread. I know a fried of mine who was Baptist but switched to Mormonism once she got married. You have mentioned the other big reason. That Sri Lanka girl: Rifka Barry switched from Islam to Christianity, she says she felt it in her heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticksboi05 Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 This just makes you sound like you don't know much about the core beliefs of various religions. I'm not trying to be snarky, but seriously they aren't the same. You might be able to make an argument regarding the Abrahamic faiths (Judaism, Islam, Christianity) although their followers will probably disagree with you, but to try and say that the Abrahamic faiths have any real relationship to Shinto, Hinduism/Buddhism, Taoism, or even Wiccan(ism?) is a real stretch. He is probably referring to the Abrahamic religions which have a lot of the same central figures just in different capacities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 No, I think I asked the right question. I know plenty of Muslims who married non-Muslims and their spouses converted. Catholicism was mentioned in this thread. I know a fried of mine who was Baptist but switched to Mormonism once she got married. Those are some pretty big faith shifts...I mean really big, and I'm just left wondering if someone is willing to make that big of a shift because they got married then were they really what they said they were other than just nominally? I ask that as honestly as I can and I don't want to spark an emotive response, but those are HUGE changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bliz Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 I've been tossed those same 25 lifelines, and I have found that Christianity is the faith that rings most true, and if I'm wrong about that, then I'm willing to go to hell for it, as I refuse to serve a God that is not the God of love made known in Jesus Christ. I admire your commitment, I just don't agree with it. I don't think you or anyone else should or will spend an eternity in hell for going with what your heart tells you is right, but finding out at the end of the day that you were wrong. I understand its one of the core tenants of Christianity, but I just can't get past it. It should be the opposite. People who choose to do bad things get forgiven for their sins because nobody's perfect, but people doing or trying to do the right thing (for them) don't get the slightest bit of leeway for something entirely beyond their comprehension (which is exactly what we're talking about, since in this scenario who knows, maybe you're wrong)? It's outrageous. It's objectively morally indefensible. And it ascribes a vanity to God that I can't accept. I'm sure you view it differently. I'm not trying to convince you you're wrong, just explaining how I feel about it. Eternity is a whole other problem. No redemption? No "doing your time" then admitted? One fraction of a step over the line and you get hell for eternity? If you believe, as many claim, that our beliefs regarding morality arise from religion or are attributable to a unique gift from the creator, why would we believe that creator would apply rules so patently offensive to our notions of what is fair and just? It makes no sense to me. I think this is an area where prior centuries of bad people abusing the power of the church for financial gain have corrupted the message. Easier to scare potential converts and collect more money if the the threat is "our way or hell forever." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busch1724 Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 He is probably referring to the Abrahamic religions which have a lot of the same central figures just in different capacities. Exactly. To me, and its just my thoughts...that there are how many ways to drive to a city. The desitnation is still the same, just a different way of going about it. To me the Abrahamic religions fall to the analogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 No. I was raised Protestant Church of England, and that's what I'll always be. I've often pondered the issue of marrying someone of a different denomination, and concluded there's no way I'd change my religion for that. If someone loves you, truly loves you, they should accept you for what you are. I know I certainly wouldn't push my faith on another. I'm certainly not as bad as my grandmother though, God rest her soul. She was old school and of a different age, and when one of her sisters married into the Catholic church, she refused to attend the wedding as it "wasn't the done thing to go into a Catholic church." Her own sister man. But I guess that was how it was back then. Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 No.I was raised Protestant Church of England, and that's what I'll always be. I've often pondered the issue of marrying someone of a different denomination, and concluded there's no way I'd change my religion for that. If someone loves you, truly loves you, they should accept you for what you are. I know I certainly wouldn't push my faith on another. I'm certainly not as bad as my grandmother though, God rest her soul. She was old school and of a different age, and when one of her sisters married into the Catholic church, she refused to attend the wedding as it "wasn't the done thing to go into a Catholic church." Her own sister man. But I guess that was how it was back then. Hail. My grandmother, rest her soul, stopped talking to her sister, because she married an Italian and moved him into the Irish neighborhood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 My grandmother, rest her soul, stopped talking to her sister, because she married an Italian and moved him into the Irish neighborhood. *Chuckles. I hear ya' man, and it doesn't surprise me. Although they never went as far as stopping talking to each other (blood being thicker than water and all that); there's was NO way she was gona' step foot in a Catholic church. Sister or no sister. Hell would of frozen over before that happened. She even held it against her sister who she blamed for not compromising and thus not allowing her to go to the wedding, lol. They came from a different era man. Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 I'm certainly not as bad as my grandmother though, God rest her soul. She was old school and of a different age, and when one of her sisters married into the Catholic church, she refused to attend the wedding as it "wasn't the done thing to go into a Catholic church." Her own sister man. But I guess that was how it was back then. My grandfather (Independent Baptist 1 degree removed from Southern) refused to attend his own daughter's wedding because the man she married was a Catholic. I think that is one of his greatest regrets to this very day, because after all these years he very much loves his son-in-law. But, then again this is the same grandfather who refuses to dance because it is sexual, I can only imagine what he must have thought when I danced with my aunt after I performed my father's wedding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 I had a delightfully closed-minded grandmother too. She was Baptist, and was...shall we say...less than pleased when she found out I intended to marry a Catholic. She chose to go ahead and die rather than attend the wedding though. We went through with it....I guess, technically, "over her dead body." There was also a really uncomfortable Thanksgiving dinner once. I was talking about a friend of mine at school, who happened to be black. Her name was "Rondal." Hearing her name, my grandma said, "Rondal? She sounds black." I looked right at her and said sternly, "She is. So?" Little conversation, and much indigestion followed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 I had a delightfully closed-minded grandmother too. She was Baptist, and was...shall we say...less than pleased when she found out I intended to marry a Catholic. She chose to go ahead and die rather than attend the wedding though. We went through with it....I guess, technically, "over her dead body." There was also a really uncomfortable Thanksgiving dinner once. I was talking about a friend of mine at school, who happened to be black. Her name was "Rondal." Hearing her name, my grandma said, "Rondal? She sounds black." I looked right at her and said sternly, "She is. So?" Little conversation, and much indigestion followed. Wow, I'm just speechless..."over her dead body" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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