People say- "I am Christian"; so?

[Tweedr01]

And yet again. You are sinning because you judge and TELL people what they should think.

"Judge NOT lest ye be JUDGED". Read that one?

Ok, I'm trying to not be a jerk, so I'm going to give you some time to actually go and look up that passage...the WHOLE passage and not just the 6 words you want to edit out of context. I've even done the hard work for you.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207&version=NIV

he had his mind made up before he even started jumping on you ASF. much like he had his mind made up to post what he wanted before reading (if he even read) the OP and the Bible verse he so 'eloquently' quoted. he reminds me of an angry charles barkley, or is that redundant.

oh it is SOOOOOO TOO LATE for that.

Peace.

It's okay ASF Thanks for the link to something I already knew. I have read the passage, just because I don't go to church doesn't mean I haven't read the bible extensively. Assume much?

you're right, it doesn't mean you haven't read it, but it's quite obvious you haven't read the Bible along with the OP and are just throwing out your incorrect interpretations of whatever you please. that's entirely your perogative if you so choose, but don't get all huffy when you get called for being wrong, it's kinda the thing to do in the tailgate if you haven't noticed.

EDIT: i do find it funny that ASF has kept a very cool head throughout this thread despite your continuous flaming, and you have the nerve to call him a jerk, lol, the irony

[AsburySkinsFan]

Give him a minute, He needs to Google every religious website in order to refute your logic

Really mature, I link to you ONE bible passage and now I'm all about Googling every religious site...:doh:, and here I thought you wanted a conversation, now what I find is you only want YOUR conversation.

---------- Post added April-21st-2011 at 09:02 AM ----------

he had his mind made up before he even started jumping on you ASF. much like he had his mind made up to post what he wanted before reading (if he even read) the OP and the Bible verse he so 'eloquently' quoted.

I know, and it's really just sad.

[rdsknbill]

So you're standing by your initial post and the interpretation that it is a sin for a Christian to "judge" in any way shape or form even after reading the passage in it's entirety? I don't assume anything about the amount you read the Bible, all I am doing is responding to the way you have chosen to interpret the texts...or rather how you choose to take them out of their contexts in order to interpret them.

See, This is what bothers me. You have deemed your self the "Supreme Theologian Prophet" in the thread and correct anyone who interprets the written Word in any other way than how YOU feel it should be interpreted. You are condescending and judgmental. You are the opposite of what I INTERPRET the bible to be saying. Do you understand yet? Or are you simply going to go back to brow beating me as a know nothing and beneath your Christian supremecy?

---------- Post added April-21st-2011 at 09:08 AM ----------

he had his mind made up before he even started jumping on you ASF. much like he had his mind made up to post what he wanted before reading (if he even read) the OP and the Bible verse he so 'eloquently' quoted. he reminds me of an angry charles barkley, or is that redundant.

you're right, it doesn't mean you haven't read it, but it's quite obvious you haven't read the Bible along with the OP and are just throwing out your incorrect interpretations of whatever you please. that's entirely your perogative if you so choose, but don't get all huffy when you get called for being wrong, it's kinda the thing to do in the tailgate if you haven't noticed.

EDIT: i do find it funny that ASF has kept a very cool head throughout this thread despite your continuous flaming, and you have the nerve to call him a jerk, lol, the irony

Continuing to insult me Tweedr is a form of flaming don't you think? Comparing me to Charles Barkley? Really? And judging my interpretation as incorrect? and who are you again? O yea, you are just a few years older than my eldest child. Yep, you carry alot of weight with me there

[Tweedr01]

See, This is what bothers me. You have deemed your self the "Supreme Theologian Prophet" in the thread and correct anyone who interprets the written Word in any other way than how YOU feel it should be interpreted. You are condescending and judgmental. You are the opposite of what I INTERPRET the bible to be saying. Do you understand yet? Or are you simply going to go back to brow beating me as a know nothing and beneath your Christian supremecy?

lol, this guy is a hoot. he didn't deem himself anything, the flaming you continue to do is just incorrect, and that is a fact. you do realize that ASF is a pastor correct? you think he might know just a weeeeee bit more than you about what he does for a living, much like if we were to have a conversation about computer related equipment i would know more than you, and if we had a conversation about lacrosse you would know more than us (and here's a hint, we would probably default to your better knowledge on the subject in that case because i know nothing about lacrosse).

you continually flame him and when he responds cordially (i have no idea how you interpret him as responding in a condescending tone, heck I have a much more condescending tone and you haven't whined to me) you flame again, and then play your victim card, lol, you are too much.

[NavyDave]

rdsknbill, Are All Men created equal?

[rdsknbill]

So are you. Good bye to you both

[Tweedr01]

Continuing to insult me Tweedr is a form of flaming don't you think? Comparing me to Charles Barkley? Really? And judging my interpretation as incorrect? and who are you again? O yea, you are just a few years older than my eldest child. Yep, you carry alot of weight with me there

poor baby, so you think charles barkley is an insult? what's wrong with sir charles?

and then proceeding to call out my age, lol, no leg to stand on and nothing to refute, usually the sign of being defeated, are you a rangers fan?

fyi, I judge your intepretation as incorrect, yes i do...enjoy

CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW?

---------- Post added April-21st-2011 at 09:16 AM ----------

rdsknbill, Are All Men created equal?

no apparently Christians are a step below parakeets

So are you. Good bye to you both

i have no idea what this means or who is directed towards, just par for the course at this point, did you want a hand out of the hole or you gonna keep on digging? lol

[AsburySkinsFan]

See, This is what bothers me. You have deemed your self the "Supreme Theologian Prophet" in the thread and correct anyone who interprets the written Word in any other way than how YOU feel it should be interpreted. You are condescending and judgmental. You are the opposite of what I INTERPRET the bible to be saying. Do you understand yet? Or are you simply going to go back to brow beating me as a know nothing and beneath your Christian supremecy?

I don't know how you think I'm brow beating you. And I in no way said or suggested that I am the "supreme theologian prophet", all I know is that I've spent my entire adult life in the study of the scriptures, and learning from those who have done the same, and as such I feel that I have a pretty firm grasp on what the scriptures do and do not say, and when I see someone quote scripture like you have then I will call them on it, because you want scripture to say what you want it to say regardless of what it actually says, you lack the humility to be taught or even to learn how to read scripture. Instead you want to look at that book and see what you want to see, and I won't stand back and pretend that's ok because it's not.

Like I said before we don't read Robert Frost and then say that he's writing about the sex lives of drug addicts, I don't care what you think you see, the reality is that reading Frost that way is reading Frost wrong. Reading scripture the way you have presented in this thread so far is reading scripture wrong. You want the Bible to be about tolerance and acceptance, and I asked you to point to me where God is tolerant and where God is accepting the sin and failing of His people...you responded with nothing. You told me that I was sinning, because I was judging you and the Bible says "judge not lest you be judged", I then asked if you would read the entire passage where Jesus talks about how we can judge rightly and help another through right judgment, totally not what you wanted that passage to say. And through this all because I have challenged you on your personal and private interpretations of the Bible which I would argue are misinterpretations I am the jerk even though you have offered nothing of substance to show me otherwise.

The Bible is not a work of abstract art, we do not get out of it what we want. The Bible is the revealed Word of God for His people and there are legitimate and illegitimate interpretations of it as there are with all literary works, and the illegitimate interpretations are found out when they cannot bear the weight of the scripture itself or scrutiny.

[Tweedr01]

I don't know how you think I'm brow beating you. And I in no way said or suggested that I am the "supreme theologian prophet", all I know is that I've spent my entire adult life in the study of the scriptures, and learning from those who have done the same, and as such I feel that I have a pretty firm grasp on what the scriptures do and do not say, and when I see someone quote scripture like you have then I will call them on it, because you want scripture to say what you want it to say regardless of what it actually says, you lack the humility to be taught or even to learn how to read scripture. Instead you want to look at that book and see what you want to see, and I won't stand back and pretend that's ok because it's not.

Like I said before we don't read Robert Frost and then say that he's writing about the sex lives of drug addicts, I don't care what you think you see, the reality is that reading Frost that way is reading Frost wrong. Reading scripture the way you have presented in this thread so far is reading scripture wrong. You want the Bible to be about tolerance and acceptance, and I asked you to point to me where God is tolerant and where God is accepting the sin and failing of His people...you responded with nothing. You told me that I was sinning, because I was judging you and the Bible says "judge not lest you be judged", I then asked if you would read the entire passage where Jesus talks about how we can judge rightly and help another through right judgment, totally not what you wanted that passage to say. And through this all because I have challenged you on your personal and private interpretations of the Bible which I would argue are misinterpretations I am the jerk even though you have offered nothing of substance to show me otherwise.

The Bible is not a work of abstract art, we do not get out of it what we want. The Bible is the revealed Word of God for His people and there are legitimate and illegitimate interpretations of it, and the illegitimate interpretations are found out when they cannot bear the weight of the scripture itself or scrutiny.

dang nothing left to say but :applause: and

i hope billy understands that we usually do not agree on a lot, but this is not one of those times, lol

[rdsknbill]

"billy"????

[Tweedr01]

"billy"????

sorry i'm a nickname addict, no offense meant, more of an assumption based on your handle

[CrypticVillain]

because you want scripture to say what you want it to say regardless of what it actually says

ASF, do you believe that this is a big problem with the church right now? When I say church I mean the body of Christ.

Reason I say it is because just like the rest of the world, I see people in the church only doing things for themselves rather than advancing the kingdom of heaven. There is a lot of selfishness going on and the result is the skewing of some Bible verses.

[AsburySkinsFan]

ASF, do you believe that this is a big problem with the church right now? When I say church I mean the body of Christ.

I really do think that's a big part of it, at least in the American church where we like rebellious youth have tossed off the yoke of oppression that is the interpretations of our "parents" in order for us to read the Bible as we want to read it, thereby forming the message of the Bible rather than having the message of the Bible form us. For one thing, I think people have completely underestimated the difficulty involved in a solid Biblical interpretation, instead Biblical interpretation is said to be easy that anyone picking up the Bible can look and fully understand all that is being said and done, and that's just not true.

One of my profs used to say all the time (and I should seriously get this as a tattoo) "A text without a context is a proof text for whatever you want it to say", and those contexts are not just in the 2 or 3 sentences surrounding the text, but the paragraphs, the book itself, the entire canon of scripture, not to mention the historical contexts, all of these things need be looked at balanced and evaluated and then compared to what others have said after having done the same thing. Here is the rub, we in the American church have neglected the last part because we don't like anyone telling us what to do (my 9 year old is the same way), but to ignore what those before us have said is to ignore a major corrective.

Now, I'm not saying that a voice in there might not be wrong, but considering that the church (Christian) is over 2,000 years old, and 10's of thousands of Christian men and women have poured over the texts for that amount of time and what we see is a definite arch in Biblical interpretation meaning that for the most part it all moves in the same general direction, and the things that stick out are the ones that move across or against that current. Thomas Oden a Wesleyan theologian who wrote a 3 volume text on systematic theology is recorded as saying, "When I was young I was afraid I'd never say anything new, now I'm afraid I will." Meaning that he's understood that when someone proposes something new after all this time then it's a fair bet that someone probably messed up, and I for one agree with him.

Reason I say it is because just like the rest of the world, I see people in the church only doing things for themselves rather than advancing the kingdom of heaven. There is a lot of selfishness going on and the result is the skewing of some Bible verses.

Absolutely, if we aren't careful we read into it what we want to, and when a passage cuts close and calls us to change our lives we resist it and typically just ignore it and then pretend that everything is ok. But, this isn't really anything new for the church or in humanity at all in fact this is a constant amongst God's people.

[LadySkinsFan]

The Bible is just a story written by men about events intrepreted by men. And by men, I mean actual males. King James rewrote it for his purposes. Constantine rewrote it for his purposes. It's probably the oldest, continuous piece of propaganda ever written. No one person's intrepretation is any more valid than any other person's, regardless of how much study one devotes to those collection of words.

Do I think that Jesus actually lived? Yes. Do I believe he is a son of a god, no I don't.

And I'm sick of people who purport to be Christians think they are better than people who aren't. I don't care about one's religion, I only care about how one lives their actual life. One doesn't need to have religious beliefs to live a moral life because basic morality has a commonality amongst all people. Only when fundamentalists, regardless of religious stripe, decide that they are the arbiters of people's personal business do we have these problems.

And I'm sick of hearing politicians talk about their personal religious beliefs and especially I hate hearing "God Bless America." Other religions hear that as "God Favors America." I could care less about what religion a politician is. There is no "God" in the Constitution and we are a nation based on the rule of law, not any religion. The United States is not a theocracy.

So hold your religious views, study all you want, worship the way you want, but keep it to yourself. Of course, these are rhetorical "yous."

[AsburySkinsFan]

The Bible is just a story written by men about events intrepreted by men. And by men, I mean actual males. King James rewrote it for his purposes. Constantine rewrote it for his purposes. It's probably the oldest, continuous piece of propaganda ever written. No one person's intrepretation is any more valid than any other person's, regardless of how much study one devotes to those collection of words.

Gee thanks for sharing.....not factually true but it was a fun enough read.

Let me ask you a straight up question LadySkinsFan, if I read a newspaper weather report that says there is a 70% chance of rain, mostly overcast skies and a high around 95 degrees for today, and then after reading that tell you that it means is there is a slight chance of rain, with sunny skies and the temperature will be cool. Would you say that my interpretation was legitimate?

So hold your religious views, study all you want, worship the way you want, but keep it to yourself. Of course, these are rhetorical "yous."

So do whatever you want with your religious views only keep them to yourself...well that's kinda hard when my religious views tell me to go and proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ to all people. Sorry if that annoys you but I really am doing 3/4's of what you said, so I figure you'll just let the other 1/4 slide.

[Tweedr01]

Gee thanks for sharing.....not factually true but it was a fun enough read.

Let me ask you a straight up question LadySkinsFan, if I read a newspaper weather report that says there is a 70% chance of rain, mostly overcast skies and a high around 95 degrees for today, and then after reading that tell you that it means is there is a slight chance of rain, with sunny skies and the temperature will be cool. Would you say that my interpretation was legitimate?

So do whatever you want with your religious views only keep them to yourself...well that's kinda hard when my religious views tell me to go and proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ to all people. Sorry if that annoys you but I really am doing 3/4's of what you said, so I figure you'll just let the other 1/4 slide.

took the words out of my mouth ASF

[LadySkinsFan]

Personally, I don't watch the weather. I experience it as it is happening. So you can have all the intrepretation you can make, but I don't have to believe it.

And as far as your going around telling people what you proclaim is some story about a guy who probably lived, I have the right not to listen to you. So I politely decline to listen to you and to believe what you are saying. So you can skip that 1/4th with me. But I think that's a problem when people take that charge to proclaim the Gospel as truth and beat people over the head with it, and in effect it gives them that superority complex just because they believe and someone else doesn't.

[Tweedr01]

Personally, I don't watch the weather. I experience it as it is happening. So you can have all the intrepretation you can make, but I don't have to believe it.

avoiding the question you are

And as far as your going around telling people what you proclaim is some story about a guy who probably lived,

incorrect

I have the right not to listen to you.

correct

So I politely decline to listen to you and to believe what you are saying. So you can skip that 1/4th with me. But I think that's a problem when people take that charge to proclaim the Gospel as truth and beat people over the head with it, and in effect it gives them that superority complex just because they believe and someone else doesn't.

No doubt it is a problem with some folks, I agree with you there, but that's definitely not true of all. It's the same argument made for muslim extremists, there definitely are some crazies out there, but I wouldn't lump all muslims in there (except for the SHF guy, I hear he's one of the crazy ones )

[AsburySkinsFan]

Personally, I don't watch the weather. I experience it as it is happening. So you can have all the intrepretation you can make, but I don't have to believe it.

That wasn't even a good dodge. I don't care what you think about a weather report, I want to know if you think that my interpretation of that weather report is legitimate.

And as far as your going around telling people what you proclaim is some story about a guy who probably lived, I have the right not to listen to you. So I politely decline to listen to you and to believe what you are saying. So you can skip that 1/4th with me. But I think that's a problem when people take that charge to proclaim the Gospel as truth and beat people over the head with it, and in effect it gives them that superiority complex just because they believe and someone else doesn't.

You're exactly right, you don't have to listen and if you walk away I will still continue to pray for you, and I won't beat you over the head with it, this is what I understand the Bible teaches in the first place. Jesus told his disciples that if a town rejects them as they go out to preach then kick the dust off their feet, in other words...move on. I don't feel any more superior proclaiming the Gospel than a guy driving a water truck in the desert, I just know I have something that people need.

[authentic]

The Bible is just a story written by men about events intrepreted by men. And by men, I mean actual males. King James rewrote it for his purposes. Constantine rewrote it for his purposes. It's probably the oldest, continuous piece of propaganda ever written. No one person's intrepretation is any more valid than any other person's, regardless of how much study one devotes to those collection of words.

I'm curious...How did you come across this information. And how are you sure this information is truth?

[LadySkinsFan]

Your interpretation is an opinion. And the weather isn't a good analogy to the Bible. I don't believe in it as an infallible word of god. I think it is a collection of historical stories. And the people writing history write it from their own perspective. Like I said, Constantine wrote his Bible the way he wanted for his own political purposes and King James wrote his Bible the way he wanted for his own political purposes. How do you explain the "lost gospels" or the "lost books" that are remarkabley different than the Bible that's come down through the centuries? That's why I called it a piece of propaganda.

As far as thinking knowing you have something people need, that's a pretty superior attitude. "I know what's best for you" kind of superority. Why not just talk about basic, common morality without attaching any sky god myth to it? Teach the rule of law that is not based on some religion? Common morality is just that, common to all peoples like Bhuddists, Muslims, Jewish, Shinto, Native American. That's because people need a common way to be in society. Religions have attached their myths to this common morality as parables. Jesus taught people how to behave to other people on the Sermon on the Mount and fed thousands of people from a couple of loaves of bread and fish. I take that to mean that we should feed the hungry. Didn't he also say that if one does this to the least of these (meaning poor, sick, homeless, naked etc.) one has done it for me? Doesn't that sound like we have a duty to see that all go without want? Yet a fundamentalist intrepretation of the Bible is to fend for oneself, one should provide for oneself and too bad for anyone who doesn't? That's what the Tea Party is saying when they want to cut Medicare, Social Security and Medicaid? Where is compassion?

You see how this is all tied up together? I see so-called Christians proclaiming not so Christ-like policies. That's why I can tell about people about how they live and what they do and not what they say about a collection of stories.

---------- Post added April-21st-2011 at 12:30 PM ----------

I'm curious...How did you come across this information. And how are you sure this information is truth?

Any good Western Civilization course will supply some information. The rest is by wide ranging research.

[authentic]

Any good Western Civilization course will supply some information. The rest is by wide ranging research.

Understood. Problem is that the your source of this information comes from what "Man" has produced, correct? So since you weren't actually there to confirm or deny the validity of your belief, you trust someone else's "research" (a man). Case in point, Christians are often ridiculed for believing in some book that "man" wrote, thus it must be untrustworthy. Where in actuality, we all rely on man's information as a source for knowledge. Its kind of like a "Pot calling the Kettle...". At the end of the day, we all function with an element of faith. For Christians our faith lies with a book that we believe was penned by man under the inspiration of God. Non-believers trust in either instinct or secular writtings of other men. I believe that the Bible, when understood in its complete CONTEXT continues to with stand scrutiny.

Example: I believe, according to the bible, that God is the source of all living in this world and beyond, I have yet to hear any reasonable rebuttal that has swayed me in the least. If there is no God, then how did we get here (Still waiting for Genesis 1:1) to be proven incorrect.

---------- Post added April-21st-2011 at 11:55 AM ----------

Oh and BTW, neither did King James nor Constantine write the Bible.

[Tweedr01]

Your interpretation is an opinion. And the weather isn't a good analogy to the Bible. I don't believe in it as an infallible word of god. I think it is a collection of historical stories. And the people writing history write it from their own perspective. Like I said, Constantine wrote his Bible the way he wanted for his own political purposes and King James wrote his Bible the way he wanted for his own political purposes. How do you explain the "lost gospels" or the "lost books" that are remarkabley different than the Bible that's come down through the centuries? That's why I called it a piece of propaganda.

As far as thinking knowing you have something people need, that's a pretty superior attitude. "I know what's best for you" kind of superority. Why not just talk about basic, common morality without attaching any sky god myth to it? Teach the rule of law that is not based on some religion? Common morality is just that, common to all peoples like Bhuddists, Muslims, Jewish, Shinto, Native American. That's because people need a common way to be in society. Religions have attached their myths to this common morality as parables. Jesus taught people how to behave to other people on the Sermon on the Mount and fed thousands of people from a couple of loaves of bread and fish. I take that to mean that we should feed the hungry. Didn't he also say that if one does this to the least of these (meaning poor, sick, homeless, naked etc.) one has done it for me? Doesn't that sound like we have a duty to see that all go without want? Yet a fundamentalist intrepretation of the Bible is to fend for oneself, one should provide for oneself and too bad for anyone who doesn't? That's what the Tea Party is saying when they want to cut Medicare, Social Security and Medicaid? Where is compassion?

You see how this is all tied up together? I see so-called Christians proclaiming not so Christ-like policies. That's why I can tell about people about how they live and what they do and not what they say about a collection of stories.

ASF = Tea Party? now i've heard everything, lol, I knew ASF was a closet republican!

Any good Western Civilization course will supply some information. The rest is by wide ranging research.

care to tell us which one you are pulling the info from?

sooooo, no

[LadySkinsFan]

King James and Constantine caused it to be rewritten for their purposes and specified how they wanted it written. Pretty much the same thing. Constantine caused a number of books stricken because they didn't support his world view.

I used the word "research" as meaning to explore different viewpoints of the same subject. I do find it unfortunate that women's voices have been largely drowned out/silenced down through the ages until these mostly modern times. I wonder what "his-tory" would have been like with their inclusion?

[SackMachine]

I never say "I'm Christian". Although, a lot of people assume that since I'm Egyptian, I must be Muslim. I've only ever said "I'm Christian" after someone asks me how come I'm not doing Ramadan, or why I'm eating pork, drinking, etc..

Religious profiling is the same as racial profiling. They both suck. They both really suck when you have family in New York and drive down there for holidays. Hellllllo border crossings