DM: Could this be the biggest find since the Dead Sea Scrolls? Seventy metal books found in cave in Jordan could change our view of Biblical history

[China]

Could this be the biggest find since the Dead Sea Scrolls? Seventy metal books found in cave in Jordan could change our view of Biblical history

For scholars of faith and history, it is a treasure trove too precious for price.

This ancient collection of 70 tiny books, their lead pages bound with wire, could unlock some of the secrets of the earliest days of Christianity.

Academics are divided as to their authenticity but say that if verified, they could prove as pivotal as the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1947.

On pages not much bigger than a credit card, are images, symbols and words that appear to refer to the Messiah and, possibly even, to the Crucifixion and Resurrection.

Adding to the intrigue, many of the books are sealed, prompting academics to speculate they are actually the lost collection of codices mentioned in the Bible’s Book Of Revelation.

The books were discovered five years ago in a cave in a remote part of Jordan to which Christian refugees are known to have fled after the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD. Important documents from the same period have previously been found there.

Initial metallurgical tests indicate that some of the books could date from the first century AD.

This estimate is based on the form of corrosion which has taken place, which experts believe would be impossible to achieve artificially.

If the dating is verified, the books would be among the earliest Christian documents, predating the writings of St Paul.

The prospect that they could contain contemporary accounts of the final years of Jesus’s life has excited scholars – although their enthusiasm is tempered by the fact that experts have previously been fooled by sophisticated fakes.

Click on the link for the full article

[Titaw]

I am definitely intrigued by this. If proven to be real, this is one step closer to proving Jesus was in fact real.

---------- Post added March-30th-2011 at 03:17 PM ----------

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1371290/Could-biggest-Dead-Sea-Scrolls-70-metal-books-cave-Jordan-change-view-Biblical-history.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

[Skins24]

I am definitely intrigued by this. If proven to be real, this is one step closer to proving Jesus was in fact real.

Is there really any doubt? :whoknows: (serious question)

I thought it was more about proving he was who he said he was, not that he existed.

[RansomthePasserby]

Linky no worky...

[HOF44]

Ok Techboy whats the deal on these things???

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Is there really any doubt? :whoknows: (serious question)

I thought it was more about proving he was who he said he was, not that he existed.

That was my understanding as well...

[Titaw]

Is there really any doubt? :whoknows: (serious question)

I thought it was more about proving he was who he said he was, not that he existed.

To me there is no doubt, but others do believe that he never existed.

[Mooka]

Is there really any doubt? :whoknows: (serious question)

I thought it was more about proving he was who he said he was, not that he existed.

That was my understanding as well...

Eh, sort of a grey area. Getting scholars and historians to agree with theologians has been historically very difficult.

*which is why sources of Jesus' life outside of the Gospels are so sought after.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

To me there is no doubt, but others do believe that he never existed.

Eh, sort of a grey area. Getting scholars and historians to agree with theologians has been historically very difficult.

*which is why sources of Jesus' life outside of the Gospels are so sought after.

Makes sense...that would be cool to find another source no matter what it shows/proves.

[Predicto]

This smells like a scam to me. They supposedly were found 5 years ago and this is the best source reporting on them? Kind of reminds me of the guy who claimed to have found Noah's Ark.

Speaking of that, there is old Skinsfan51 lately? We haven't had one of his threads in a long time?

[dockeryfan]

I am definitely intrigued by this. If proven to be real, this is one step closer to proving Jesus was in fact real.

I never thought there was any question that the man existed.

The New Testament has been proven to be historically accurate, of course. But even if you somehow want to simply discount the bible as a historical document...

Tacitus, a Roman Senator and historian, documents a man being put to death by Pilate in the reign of Tiberius in his account The Annals.

Josephus, a Jewish historian, wrote about John the Baptist, Pilate and Jesus.

The new scholars that discount subsequent texts because they claim that Christianity already existed, etc. Honestly it sounds like pseudo science to me. We probably have more historical references to Jesus than other historical figures that we just take for granted existed.

[@DCGoldPants]

I don't think there are many people who think Jesus the person didn't exist. Its 99.9999999999% questioning who he was.

[Stadium-Armory]

I don't think there are many people who think Jesus the person didn't exist. Its 99.9999999999% questioning who he was.

Agreed. I'm generally skeptical about organized religions, but believe the man most likely existed. Whether or not he was the son of god is a separate question, and one that these findings probably can't 'prove' (even if they are found to date to this time period).

[Predicto]

The New Testament has been proven to be historically accurate, of course.

It has? All of it?

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Wow. Here's hoping these are authentic for those of us that do believe. The more historical recording the better in hopefully educating, if that's the right word without wishing to sound above anyone; the doubters that still remain out there.

Hail.

[Elessar78]

I am definitely intrigued by this. If proven to be real, this is one step closer to proving Jesus was in fact real.

---------- Post added March-30th-2011 at 03:17 PM ----------

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1371290/Could-biggest-Dead-Sea-Scrolls-70-metal-books-cave-Jordan-change-view-Biblical-history.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

He is who we thought he was. If you want to crown Him, crown Him.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

He is who we thought he was. If you want to crown Him, crown Him.

With thorns?

[techboy]

Ok Techboy whats the deal on these things???

I have no idea. It sounds like nobody's actually gotten to really look at them, because they're in the hands of some private collector, and there's concern he's trying to sell them on the open market.

There's actually a very brisk underground antiquities trade, and it's a terrible problem for scholarship, especially in poor areas of the world where there's little money for protecting sites and people need to eat.

Eh, sort of a grey area. Getting scholars and historians to agree with theologians has been historically very difficult.

This isn't really true. I'm unaware of any serious, mainstream scholar of any stripe that argues that Jesus was not an historical person. John Dominic Crossan compares those that do to people that think the moon landing was faked.

And interestingly, if you read classical historians like Michael Grant or A N Sherwin-White, what you find is that they criticize Biblical scholars for frequently being too skeptical, applying very stringent standards for historical verification that would never be applied to other historical figures.

*Quotes of all of this available on request.

[Bang]

Dear Diary. Today me and JC and the guys came up with a GREAT idea.

It's too much to go into right now, but if we pull this off we'll be richer than the Romans someday.

~Bang

[Forehead]

Does anyone ever picture of Techboy in a charcoal grey suit, sitting in a chair on a stage, and when it's his turn, he stands up, pulls out some wire framed glasses, steps up to a lecturn, shuffles his notes a bit, and then proceeds to fact/source everyone else into submission?

Yeah...I'm now convinced that his computer is on a lecturn in his house.

[Predicto]

Dear Diary. Today me and JC and the guys came up with a GREAT idea.

It's too much to go into right now, but if we pull this off we'll be richer than the Romans someday.

~Bang

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Diaries

[Mooka]

This isn't really true. I'm unaware of any serious, mainstream scholar of any stripe that argues that Jesus was not an historical person. John Dominic Crossan compares those that do to people that think the moon landing was faked.

And interestingly, if you read classical historians like Michael Grant or A N Sherwin-White, what you find is that they criticize Biblical scholars for frequently being too skeptical, applying very stringent standards for historical verification that would never be applied to other historical figures.

*Quotes of all of this available on request.

I don't think I need the quotes.

I meant agree on how to study history. Like for example you automatically differentiate between a classical historian and a biblical scholar.

[Darth Tater]

Mooka,

Well, historians tend to disagree among themselves about how to study history.

[rebornempowered]

The books were discovered five years ago in a cave in a remote part of Jordan to which Christian refugees are known to have fled after the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD. Important documents from the same period have previously been found there.

Initial metallurgical tests indicate that some of the books could date from the first century AD.

If the dating is verified, the books would be among the earliest Christian documents, predating the writings of St Paul.

Uh, Paul lost his head prior to AD 70.

On another note, I find it interesting that they seem to look like it is bound in some way. Never seen anything like that before. Does anyone know if that was common and I just missed it?

[JMS]

Is there really any doubt? :whoknows: (serious question)

I thought it was more about proving he was who he said he was, not that he existed.

I think they have found Roman documents and historians which verify Jesus lived and was crusified and was worshiped. But not much more than that.

• The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious “Christians” (from Christus, which is Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius.
  
• Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44).
  
• Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.”
  
• Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18).
  
• Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and he includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.
  
• The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.
  
• Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.
  
• Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of His followers.
  
• Then we have all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) that all mention Jesus.
  

In fact, we can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), did “magic,” led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (Babylonian Talmud) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed, worshipping Him as God (Pliny the Younger).

---------- Post added March-30th-2011 at 05:23 PM ----------

Eh, sort of a grey area. Getting scholars and historians to agree with theologians has been historically very difficult.

I think that's accurate. I wouldn't use the term theologian though, because honestly religions and people don't even agree on the meaning of the word. There are entire studies of theology disconnected from scholarship and more formerly rooted in faith.

I do think their are disagreements about the existence of a historical Jesus. But I also think the preponderance of the evidence is against the deniers.

I also don't think historians who seem to agree with religious authorities, really do agree if you go beyond the superficial. Religious folks have diverse and rich beliefs about what are reliable sources and accepted sorces and what are not, and historians typically have an entirely different set of standards and intelligences on these issues.