WaPo: School bus driver fired over Confederate flag

[Bang]

You would think they would be more concerned with the way he treats the different students on his bus than the way he treats his truck.

or how he reflects on the company..

~Bang

[headexplode]

The next week is my favorite of the year ... I get to antagonize people about their fake Irishness and when, in my opinion, their stereotypes border on racism. And being Irish, I get to decide what's racist.

Go choke on a potato you loud-mouthed drunk.

[frostyj]

That's an interesting question. I'd probably support their right to do so, but still think it was a betrayal of the United States. Taking arms against your country is treason though by almost any definition and I'm not sure that you can secede without being a traitor. After all, we do swear loyalty on the flag every morning and so those who leave the union are betraying their oaths and their country.

The Pledge didn't come around until 1892 or so.

Why do the bad guys(Confederate and Nazi) always have the cool looking flags?

I see no issue, if someone is offended by it let them be offended.

If someone is offended by something someone displays and that person has to remove what was offensive, can they put it back by being offended for offending?

[Burgold]

If someone is offended by something someone displays and that person has to remove what was offensive, can they put it back by being offended for offending?

Believe it or not, I agree with you. I think his Freedom to Express should allow the flying of this flag on his personal property. Maybe the school could have asked him to stow it when he was on school grounds, but otherwise, he should have the right to declare this. It's not such an outrageous symbol or such a violently inciteful symbol that he needs to be immediately banned from public useage.

(Even though it declares him a traitor and hater of the United States of America )

[Henry]

They declared war because the Union would not let them leave. Clearly things did not go as the Confederacy wanted. They hoped to just walk away. You can argue the end result was treason, but I don't believe their initial plans were to go down that road.

Perhaps, however four of them were still part of the Union when shots were fired against federal troops. Then when war was obviously inevitable they seceded. Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee and Arkansas didn't hope to just walk away. They picked the side belligerent to the USA. They knew they were going to fight when they seceded. That flag represents, among other things, the most powerful army of one those states.

When I see a Confederate flag, I honestly don't think about secession, slaves, or war. Around here, it's just a symbol for the South. You're saying you're Southern and proud of it. When I see people with Confederate flags, I don't think, "That person wants to secede from the US and reinstitute slaves, and he also hates all black people." I think, "He's from the South."

Why does that flag represent the south? Why does the south need to be represented as separate from the rest of us at all? Does anyone even KNOW what any of the Northern battle flags looked like? Does anyone ever fly them around with pride, talking about how great it is to be from the North? I guess I just don't get that.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Absolutely, which is why Franklin had that line about hanging together or we will most surely hang apart. They understood that they were being treasonous and traitors.

So, would flying the American flag be celebrating treason also?

[DjTj]

Bolded

It is not specifically called out, but it is clear that if you can join the Union by a forming a Convention and voting, you can leave the Union by forming a Convention and voting.

Where is your quote from? It's not from the Constitution, and it doesn't look like it's from any legal authority.

Here is what the Supreme Court said in 1868:

When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final. The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution or through consent of the States.

Considered therefore as transactions under the Constitution, the ordinance of secession, adopted by the convention and ratified by a majority of the citizens of Texas, and all the acts of her legislature intended to give effect to that ordinance, were absolutely null. They were utterly without operation in law. The obligations of the State, as a member of the Union, and of every citizen of the State, as a citizen of the United States, remained perfect and unimpaired. It certainly follows that the State did not cease to be a State, nor her citizens to be citizens of the Union. If this were otherwise, the State must have become foreign, and her citizens foreigners. The war must have ceased to be a war for the suppression of rebellion, and must have become a war for conquest and subjugation.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0074_0700_ZO.html

The Supreme Court, Congress, and most importantly, President Lincoln certainly viewed secession as an illegal and unconstitutional act.

[Spartacus87]

When I see a Confederate flag, I honestly don't think about secession, slaves, or war. Around here, it's just a symbol for the South. You're saying you're Southern and proud of it. When I see people with Confederate flags, I don't think, "That person wants to secede from the US and reinstitute slaves, and he also hates all black people." I think, "He's from the South."

I don't think that person wants to bring back slavery.

I think for a lot of people in the South though, their loyalty to the Confederate flag is misguided. What people want the Confederate flag to represent today is not what it originally stood for, but that's not exactly an easy symbol to re-write the meaning for.

It's not just a simple "symbol for the South." There's too much history, and fairly recent history at that, to honestly think of it in those terms. Southern and proud of it? What part of the Confederacy in particular invokes this pride?

[visionary]

or how he reflects on the company..

~Bang

I can understand that point of view.

On the other hand, if the guy was such a big racist, they probably shouldn't/wouldn't have hired him in the first place.

And it's odd the thing they're focusing on seems to be a flag on his truck that he doesn't use on the job.

I wonder what the students he's actually paid to deal with are saying about him.

You would think if he was so bad, there would have been a lot more complaints than this.

[Burgold]

So, would flying the American flag be celebrating treason also?

Of course it is from a certain perspective. The difference is we won and therefore got to be our own sovereign nation. That doesn't mean that we weren't filthy rebel treasonous scum at one point.

[Chicken Fried]

I don't know that I agree. Mind you, I'm mostly having academic fun here. Let's say that Arizona decides to go one step further after saying it doesn't need to obey federal laws and declares itself its own sovereign nation. Do you think that most people will consider them loyal to the U.S. or rebels and traitors? The very notion of divorcing yourself from your parent nation is one that is incredibly extreme and bound to be looked at as hostile and insulting by the parent nation.

If Arizona declared today that it was no longer a part of the United States how would you classify it?

I wouldn't classify it as treason unless they are harming the US in some way. I guess you would have to classify what the South ultimately did as treason as well.

---------- Post added March-10th-2011 at 12:01 PM ----------

Perhaps, however four of them were still part of the Union when shots were fired against federal troops. Then when war was obviously inevitable they seceded. Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee and Arkansas didn't hope to just walk away. They picked the side belligerent to the USA. They knew they were going to fight when they seceded. That flag represents, among other things, the most powerful army of one those states.

Yeah that sounds reasonable. Although I don't think they wanted to fight, but they knew they would have to.

Why does that flag represent the south? Why does the south need to be represented as separate from the rest of us at all? Does anyone even KNOW what any of the Northern battle flags looked like? Does anyone ever fly them around with pride, talking about how great it is to be from the North? I guess I just don't get that.

I'm pretty sure the Yankee battle flag was the US flag flown today without as many stars.

---------- Post added March-10th-2011 at 12:03 PM ----------

I don't think that person wants to bring back slavery.

I think for a lot of people in the South though, their loyalty to the Confederate flag is misguided. What people want the Confederate flag to represent today is not what it originally stood for, but that's not exactly an easy symbol to re-write the meaning for.

It's not just a simple "symbol for the South." There's too much history, and fairly recent history at that, to honestly think of it in those terms. Southern and proud of it? What part of the Confederacy in particular invokes this pride?

It doesn't have to be the Confederacy that invokes the pride. It's just a culture thing. That's why I don't oppose the flag being flown. It doesn't mean that person or state is going to secede again. No matter what people say about this argument, for many many people, it is a matter of heritage, not secession.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Of course it is from a certain perspective. The difference is we won and therefore got to be our own sovereign nation. That doesn't mean that we weren't filthy rebel treasonous scum at one point.

You rebel scum.

[Henry]

So, would flying the American flag be celebrating treason also?

It certainly celebrates the fact that we are not part of the British empire. What do you think we're celebrating on the 4th of July?

---------- Post added March-10th-2011 at 12:13 PM ----------

You rebel scum.

[Rocky21]

In the letter to the school bus company, the attorney for The Rutherford Institute of Charlottesville, a conservative civil rights organization, cited a 2002 federal court ruling that upheld the right of a city worker in Kansas to display a vanity license plate on his truck with a Confederate battle flag and the words, "Heritage, Not Hate," while parked at work.

[Burgold]

No matter what people say about this argument, for many many people, it is a matter of heritage, not secession.

I'm almost positive that for many you are correct about this statement. In some ways, it's like those who get offended when I wear a Redskins' cap. To them, my cap and it's logo mean something offensive and terrible and for quite a few of them their offense is sincere. Likewise, for many the Confederate flag represents hurtful associations and a dark past. While for others it represents... ? Southern Pride I guess.

We use symbols as shorthand and often our cryptologists break those symbols into different meanings. I would suppose if the symbol of the south was the Pecan Pie some would still find a way to be offended (people offended by yummy, really fattening desserts perhaps). I just think we should conscious of what we say and what others might here. Flying that Confederate Flag does shout a loud message, but the person flying the flag has no control over what message is heard. I don't really get "Southern Pride" I just don't have that kind of regional passion. I love the U.S. I love my family. I even love my team (despite how they test me). I don't have Northern or Southern pride. Heck, I'm not even sure I have much state pride. When I'm away I tell people I'm from DC because it's an easier reference point. Anyway, it's clear to me that many of those who are agitated by the Confederate Flag are sincerely troubled by it and what they feel it represents. I'm not sure that there's a rational solution to that because it's an emotional problem.

Mind you, while I sympathize with the offense my 'skins cap might bring I am still wearing it.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

It certainly celebrates the fact that we are not part of the British empire. What do you think we're doing on the 4th of July?

I'm usually watching fireworks and drinking beer...

No, I know that. I was just drawing the parallel to what was said about the Confederate flag. I guess winning a revolution changes the perception a bit!

[Rocky21]

I work at a hospital (privately owned) and they had a supervisor remove a political bumber sticker from her car

because some people were getting offended by it.

The politically correct times we live in. I support someone's right to say something that offends me in the form of a bumper sticker on their own vehicle.

[headexplode]

What do you think we're celebrating on the 4th of July?

Discount prices?

[zoony]

Does anyone ever fly them around with pride, talking about how great it is to be from the North? I guess I just don't get that.

never spent any amount of time with someone from Boston, have you?

[Henry]

never spent any amount of time with someone from Boston, have you?

I had a roommate from Boston once. They are proud about the neighborhood they're from, let alone state or part of the country.

And yes, I think that's crazy too.

[Corcaigh]

Go choke on a potato you loud-mouthed drunk.

2/10. Failure to mention Papism, excessive breeding, hovels, proclivity to violence, and blaming the English for everything, are serious omissions.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I had a roommate from Boston once. They are proud about the neighborhood they're from, let alone state or part of the country.

And yes, I think that's crazy too.

You know Solly too?

[Larry]

Well considering that secession was authorized by the Constitution, requiring a State Convention to vote to secede, I don't see how it could be considered treason.

Could you quote that part for me? It seems to be missing from my copy.

[Predicto]

No way am I getting into this morass again.

but as an aside, I'm guessing that Popeman's stuff about simply calling a state convention to secede comes from the Articles of Confederation, the weak form of government we had before we ratified the Constitution.

[Popeman38]

Could you quote that part for me? It seems to be missing from my copy.

How did one join the union? If you can join anything, you can dis-join. And please, spare me the Lincoln crap that is coming. He suspended habeus-corpus, imprisoned the opposition leaders without charging them or trying them, freed some slaves, and after the war stated that blacks should all go colonize central america because they were notequal to whites. He isn't the romanticized civil rights champion everyone makes him out to be.

---------- Post added March-10th-2011 at 12:35 PM ----------

No way am I getting into this morass again.

but as an aside, I'm guessing that Popeman's stuff about simply calling a state convention to secede comes from the Articles of Confederation, the weak form of government we had before we ratified the Constitution.

Yes. And if you can dissolve one union, replace it with another by voting at a convention, you can surely dissolve that union and replace it at convention. It ain't rocket science people. The FFs planned a govt that could be dissolved. We can amend the Constitution with a simple vote....