PeterMP Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 We need to think 1860, not 2011. Because James Madison opined that there was no right to secede did not make it law. It was debated. Quite a few actually believed it was legal. Politicians back then used secession as a tool. States used secession as a tool to negotiate with the Fed Govt. obviously people thought secession was a real possibility, otherwise they would have dismissed them as we do today. I am not saying it was correct, or that they were right. Obviously, today we know it is not legal for a state to secede. But we have history, the 14th Amendment, and a SCOTUS ruling to base that decision on. In 1860, there was only the precedent of the revolution and states seceding from the AoC and into the Constitution. There was no established case law. There were only opinions. As such, nothing about an opinion makes it law. Who believed it was legal? Just because secession was possible that didn't make it Constitutional. The states didn't secede from the Articles of Confederation. The Articles of Confederation were replaced via a Constitutional Congress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Resupply, not reinforcement.In early April, President Lincoln decided to try to resupply the fort, sending several merchant vessels under escort of the US Navy to Charleston. On April 6, 1861, he told Francis Pickens, Governor of South Carolina, "an attempt will be made to supply Fort Sumter with provisions only, and that if such attempt be not resisted, no effort to throw in men, arms, or ammunition will be made without further notice, [except] in case of an attack on the fort." The Confederate leaders met in Montgomery to discuss the issue, deciding on April 9th to attack Fort Sumter and force it to surrender prior to the arrival of the US Fleet. http://www.freeinfosociety.com/article.php?id=214 Correct. After they had already insisted that US forces leave CSA land. That is why the commander moved to Fort Sumter and hunkered down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjTj Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Correct. After they had already insisted that US forces leave CSA land. That is why the commander moved to Fort Sumter and hunkered down.Fort Sumter was United States federal property. It's not like they were marching US troops through downtown Charleston.We didn't close all of our military bases when we gave the Philippines their independence, and they didn't start firing on us. If secession was just a legal formality, couldn't the Confederacy have just let the Union troops stay in Fort Sumter peacefully? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 I still agree with you. My only hope is that someone considers the possibility that although a great many people see the Confederate Flag as a symbol of white supremacy it doesn’t represent that to every one. We all completely understand that. I used to have that flag hanging in the back window of my car. But once I learned what that flag meant to OTHER people, I decided that was a message that I didn't want to send, and I realized that continuing to display it fully knowing what it means to other people would be kind of a dick move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Resupply, not reinforcement.] Typical Yankee argument...you ignore they already reinforced it to start with.:pfft: On December 26, 1860, six days after South Carolina declared its secession, U.S. Army Major Robert Anderson abandoned the indefensible Fort Moultrie and secretly relocated companies E and H (127 men, 13 of them musicians) of the 1st U.S. Artillery to Fort Sumter without orders from Washington, on his own initiative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimboDaMan Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 I still agree with you. My only hope is that someone considers the possibility that although a great many people see the Confederate Flag as a symbol of white supremacy it doesn’t represent that to every one.I don't know that I'd go as far as "white supremacy". But when I see someone displaying a rebel flag I kinda get the feeling the "n" word is used quite openly in that crowd. I know that not everybody is like that. But I've seen it happen often enough that it becomes my expectation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Ya think they hang with rappers? Wouldn't put it past them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 We all completely understand that. I used to have that flag hanging in the back window of my car. But once I learned what that flag meant to OTHER people, I decided that was a message that I didn't want to send, and I realized that continuing to display it fully knowing what it means to other people would be kind of a dick move. Why.. you considerate ****! ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 I've wanted one for a while. And my reasons for NOT getting one are the same as Predicto's for getting rid of his. I have to admit though, it's kinda funny. If you asked a thousand people which of us used to have that flag on our car, TWO thousand would say me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Why.. you considerate ****!~Bang I know, right? There is one thing I refuse to change, however. I feel that extending a middle finger to someone is a gesture of kindness. **** the rest of 'em if they can't see that. It only matters what I think. ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 I've wanted one for a while. And my reasons for NOT getting one are the same as Predicto's for getting rid of his.I have to admit though, it's kinda funny. If you asked a thousand people which of us used to have that flag on our car, TWO thousand would say me. Why would you bother to have a Dixie flag in the back of your car? I've seen your car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Why would you bother to have a Dixie flag in the back of your car? I've seen your car. Okay, HH has gone up a couple of cool points in my book. Also, Hog, good ole buddy ole pal could you set me up with your cousin Daisy? (Not the current day one mindya, but the one immortalized on TV) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan133 Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Nah, flying the confederate flag is celebrating treason. Even if you get away from the racial stuff it is celebrating the secession. The people who quit the Union, spilled their brother's blood and fought against the United States. Was there a Confederate flag prior to the Civil War? I'm for freedom of speech, but it's one of the most anti-U.S. symbols in the U.S. It celebrates our division and almost the destruction of the country by people who wanted to tear the U.S. apart. It's not Southern pride. It's rebel pride.I know I said I was checking out in the other thread, but I just had to say something to this.first of all, what the **** happened to you as a poster? I seem to recall you being a much more agreeable and pleasant person back in the heyday of this board. Second, what would you call the hundreds, if not thousands of Virginia Military Institute graduates who have fought, bled, and sometimes died on the battlefield having spent four years at VMI saluting a statue of General Jackson, Saluting the grave of Robert Edward Lee, and who until very recently marched under the Confederate flag on every May 15, the day that the VMI Corps fought as a single unit to protect the town of New Market from being ravaged and burned by the Union in 1864? The same New Market I proudly wear on my class ring and will wear as an officer in the United States Army? Would you call all of us traitors? Would call me a traitor? Would you say I celebrate treason? don't answer that question either, I don't want to know. ****in peace, I'm out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 No, I don't consider you a traitor, in fact from what I know about you your passion and patriotism is very strong and real, but you do celebrate secession when you honor that flag. It was the Confederate Battle Flag not the flag of the South. There's no flag of the North, no flag of the East, the West, or the South. There is the flag of the United States, State Flags, plus a few county and municipal flags. The Confederate flag harkens to one of the darkest, bloodiest periods in our nation's history.The troops that defended New Market did so bravely and honorably, but if they hadn't betrayed their nation, if they hadn't broken the Union would they have ever needed to? No one including you has been able to really refute what I said. Some have tried by saying that secession was legal and part of an unwritten, but understood Constitution process, but that's been a hard point to prove and one that history seems to disagree with. What I wrote is exceedingly blunt, but it's also true. You asked me not to answer you and I've expanded on that quote several times within this thread so I won't go into any more expansive explanations than this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blue Joe Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 no comparison between the confederate battle flag and a swastika armbanda reach I agree. The swastika is a religious symbol of good fortune that was used extensively in India for several millennia prior to WWII. On the other hand, the confederate flag was born out of desire to continue a brutal system of racial oppression. There really is no comparison between the two. If it wasn't for its well-known ties to American history in the western part of the world, the confederate flag would have been a much more fitting symbol for the Nazis to adopt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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